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General discussionThanks for censorship, GOG(233 posts)(233 posts)
(233 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 28, 2015
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Post edited February 28, 2015 by Myuukia
Posted February 28, 2015
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BreOl72: Believe me, those dimwits would only be too happy, if they were allowed to march the streets under the swastika-flag again.
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Protoss: I believe we both agree that this is intolerable.
Happy, to read this - I had my doubts in the meantime, as I have to admit.
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Protoss: However, it is my firm belief that Germany would instead of the nonfunctional current laws need a law like in Austria about "Nationalsozialistische Wiederbetätigung" (english page). This would on the one side forbid nazism and on the other side allow using its symbols for purposes that go against nazism in any medium.
Once again - I cannot see your argument here.

The only thing loosely related to gaming would be this section:

"Im Jahre 1992 wurde mit dem neuen § 3h die Leugnung, Verharmlosung, Gutheißung und Rechtfertigung des „nationalsozialistischen Völkermordes oder anderer nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit“ verboten, wenn dies „in einem Druckwerk, im Rundfunk oder in einem anderen Medium oder […] sonst öffentlich auf eine Weise, daß es vielen Menschen zugänglich wird“, geschieht. Das Strafmaß dafür beträgt 1 bis 10 Jahre Freiheitsstrafe, bei besonderer Gefährlichkeit bis zu 20 Jahre. Damit wurde unter anderem Holocaustleugnung explizit verboten."

Now, I'm happy to admit, I'm no lawyer, so reading texts interspersed with lots of paragraphs is no fun for me and I might have missed something important - if so, why don't you just post the important bits, instead of linking to such articles?
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P1na: You lose me at killing nazis is fun -> .. -> nazism is fun -> .. -> become a neo-nazi. No matter how many things you put in the middle, wouldn't an easily influenced person start hunting down neo nazis instead?
I get your point ;)
I would reply, but I think paladin181 (the comment under yours) did that already way better than I could do.
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tinyE: My only concern with countering "desensitization" (which I think is a valid problem) would be going to the extreme and limiting the imagery to the point that people forget.
But that is where the history lessons in school set in - like it was said before: every pupil in Germany learns about the third reich /Nazism and what it stood /stands for.
Post edited February 28, 2015 by BreOl72
Posted February 28, 2015
BreOI72, you got me thinking, which is almost unheard of. :P Seriously...

I'm trying to relate what you are dealing with being German to something I deal with being in the States, regarding symbolism, and we vaguely do have a similar conflict, that being the Confederate flag.

Now there are no laws that I am aware of (or pending) restricting display of the "Stars & Bars" on one's person or property and I've never heard of anyone trying to stop it from being shown in movies or games, but there is a HUGE movement to keep it from being displayed on state flags and state capitals.

Has such a distinction with Nazi imagery ever been considered in Germany?
Posted February 28, 2015
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Fenixp: I do believe the issue, if I understand it correctly, lies in the fact that before GOG focused on German customers, it did not need to have such restrictions in place. Now that it does, it ... Well, does. So the argument is made that it's been better off before.
People are using this argument all the time but I haven't seen anyone provide a source to prove this statement. It would be nice if someone knowledgeable about German and international law and how it interacts with the internet could shine some light on the whole thing.
Posted February 28, 2015
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Fenixp: I do believe the issue, if I understand it correctly, lies in the fact that before GOG focused on German customers, it did not need to have such restrictions in place. Now that it does, it ... Well, does. So the argument is made that it's been better off before.
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rotorde: People are using this argument all the time but I haven't seen anyone provide a source to prove this statement. It would be nice if someone knowledgeable about German and international law and how it interacts with the internet could shine some light on the whole thing.
This user did, but unfortunately you'd have to be able to read German to understand it and the post is too long and complicated to translate on the fly.

The short version is that GOG was operating in a grey zone before and was more likely to slip under the radar because while their service was open to German users, it was not officially targeting the German market and did not draw too much attention to itself. Now they are actively advertising to German users, which forces them to adhere to German laws.
Post edited February 28, 2015 by Leroux
Posted February 28, 2015
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Leroux: This user did, but unfortunately you'd have to be able to read German to understand it and the post is too long and complicated to translate on the fly.

The short version is that GOG was operating in a grey zone before and were more likely to slip under the radar because while their service was open to German users, it was not officially targeting the German market and did not draw too much attention to itself. Now they are actively advertising to German users, which forces them to adhere to German laws.
So the problem is basically that there are legal grey zones. If gog would have stayed in the grey zone then they would have been fine until someone started to fix the grey zones. The outcome would then depend on the new laws. I guess the good thing is that this is making Germans now have more incentive to talk about their censorship laws. I can understand the frustration because changing laws is not going to happen fast.

I would think the issue of censorship has been brought up time and time again in Germany. Are there political groups trying to debate this with the government? Is there just not enough people who care?

Note: I'm not saying what gog chose to do was right or wrong but I can imagine that the issue is more complex than some might think. I would just like the discussion to source actual laws and regulation and not just make statements without proof.
Posted February 28, 2015
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BreOl72: Once again - I cannot see your argument here.

The only thing loosely related to gaming would be this section:

"Im Jahre 1992 wurde mit dem neuen § 3h die Leugnung, Verharmlosung, Gutheißung und Rechtfertigung des „nationalsozialistischen Völkermordes oder anderer nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit“ verboten, wenn dies „in einem Druckwerk, im Rundfunk oder in einem anderen Medium oder […] sonst öffentlich auf eine Weise, daß es vielen Menschen zugänglich wird“, geschieht. Das Strafmaß dafür beträgt 1 bis 10 Jahre Freiheitsstrafe, bei besonderer Gefährlichkeit bis zu 20 Jahre. Damit wurde unter anderem Holocaustleugnung explizit verboten."

Now, I'm happy to admit, I'm no lawyer, so reading texts interspersed with lots of paragraphs is no fun for me and I might have missed something important - if so, why don't you just post the important bits, instead of linking to such articles?
Well, I see at the two biggest points of how it works in Austria:
1. They use PEGI instead of a homebrew organisation.
2. They have practically no censorship in video games.

Sure, the criminal code is not the only law that would need to be changed, but it would be a beginning.
Posted February 28, 2015
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tinyE: BreOI72, you got me thinking, which is almost unheard of. :P Seriously...
tinyE, you never cease to surprise me... ;o)
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tinyE: I'm trying to relate what you are dealing with being German to something I deal with being in the States, regarding symbolism, and we vaguely do have a similar conflict, that being the Confederate flag.

Now there are no laws that I am aware of (or pending) restricting display of the "Stars & Bars" on one's person or property and I've never heard of anyone trying to stop it from being shown in movies or games, but there is a HUGE movement to keep it from being displayed on state flags and state capitals.

Has such a distinction with Nazi imagery ever been considered in Germany?
I'm not quite sure, if I can follow you...do you mean the distinction between public and private display of Nazi symbols?
Of course, you are free to do whatever you want in your own four walls, meaning, if I want a swastika flag hanging over my bed, I can do so (where's no plaintiff, there's no judge) - but you are chin deep in trouble, if there would either be a) a shakedown of your flat (for whatever reasons), or b) your flag could be seen from the street (through your window).

I can tell you, that here in Germany no one would give a flying f**k about you wearing the "Stars & Bars" on your jacket or if you'd raise the flag in your garden (well, some more educated might start thinking about your political ideas (I know, I do, whenever I see one), but that's like the sum of money you earn - nobody talks about it, really).

But you get in serious trouble, doing so with a swastika.

Heck, there once was a "famous" judgement, where a judge sentenced a man who sold anti-Nazi-merchandise(!), to pay a fine of €3600,-

The merch was showing swastikas crossed out, crushed, thrown in a bin, or with slogans like "No 4th Reich".

The judgement was later revised through the Bundesgerichtshof (Federal Court).

A quote from the judgement of the federal court: "Who clearly expresses its opposition to National Socialism, expressed with crossed swastikas, does not make something illegal."

Now I know (or at least, I think, I know - correct me, if I'm wrong), that the Stars & bars is often raised by american Nazis and other racist organisations like the KKK, etc., so I can understand, that people in the US might feel uncomfortable when it comes to that flag flying in official places.
Posted February 28, 2015
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tinyE: BreOI72, you got me thinking, which is almost unheard of. :P Seriously...
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BreOl72: tinyE, you never cease to surprise me... ;o)
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tinyE: I'm trying to relate what you are dealing with being German to something I deal with being in the States, regarding symbolism, and we vaguely do have a similar conflict, that being the Confederate flag.

Now there are no laws that I am aware of (or pending) restricting display of the "Stars & Bars" on one's person or property and I've never heard of anyone trying to stop it from being shown in movies or games, but there is a HUGE movement to keep it from being displayed on state flags and state capitals.

Has such a distinction with Nazi imagery ever been considered in Germany?
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BreOl72: Now I know (or at least, I think, I know - correct me, if I'm wrong), that the Stars & bars is often raised by american Nazis and other racist organisations like the KKK, etc., so I can understand, that people in the US might feel uncomfortable when it comes to that flag flying in official places.
Yeah. It's one of the official symbols of the KKK and the American Nazi Party. Now this is where is gets iffy (for them, for me their argument makes ZERO sense). Southerners (self prescribed non-racist Southerners) consider the Con Flag to be a symbol of their culture and heritage and thus it should be waving over city hall regardless of whether the Klan wants to use it as well. That to me makes no sense because the CSA was little more than a failed coop that lasted less than five years and was subsequently put down. Not to be flippant but can you imagine how crowded things would get if every revolution (successful and un) throughout history decided to keep their flags waving? Every capital building on the planet would have to have the flag of every party/nation every to have control flying! :P

Again, this may sound flippant, but I actually mean this with all do seriousness, I prefer these symbols (I stress this is coming from an American in America and I would never speak on behalf of you good sir) be allowed not on Capital Hill but for sure be allowed in public because, to be blunt, it helps me see these assholes coming. I want that racist fuckwit waving that Confederate flag and waving that Nazi flag at all times because I want to know where they are at all times, especially so when they get close to my street I can have my bags full of dog shit ready to throw at them.
Posted February 28, 2015
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BreOl72: Because games are made to have fun.
That doesn't apply since like 1990s. Games are made to be engaging or compelling in some form, but for the longest time carry messages much deeper than that.

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BreOl72: Minors, (Kids and youths) on the other hand MIGHT be influenced in the way described above - which is why the law was made to "protect" them.
Yeah, vast majority of war games carrying Nazi symbolism are at least teen rated, and human brain tends to have its priorities straight by that point. Same as with displaying of sex and violence - if one gets swayed towards racism and hatered by seeing a symbol connected to digital dots, something else would have triggered him with or without playing a game.

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BreOl72: Depicting symbols of the Nazi-Regime in movies is ok, because most movies are historically correct (to more or lesser extent) and they show what terrible deeds and times these symbols stood /stand for.
It's a good thing that most games which tried to depict Nazi symbolism were actually doing so for historical accuracy or to make sense within the context of historical accuracy, isn't it?

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paladin181: Yeah. I think it's more of being worried about desensitization and worrying heavily that the movement may make a return because people don't see the Nazi regime for how horrible is really was.
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BreOl72: I would reply, but I think paladin181 (the comment under yours) did that already way better than I could do.
These arguments always make me cry a little bit. Nazis aren't considered evil for their symbolism. Nazis are considered evil for their beliefs and for their priorities. Does using and reusing their symbolism make people less sensitive to it? Good, perhaps we'll be able to use it for its actual meaning again, after Nazis stained it so, and perhaps we'll stop connecting superficial shit like raising hands in particular manner, symbols and uniforms with 'evil', and start considering the real issue which lies deep inside Nazism and still rears its ugly heads with many more movements going under different names, with different symbolism, caused by misunderstanding, hatered and hostility towards what is different, all of that rooted in human mind.

Banning a symbol doesn't ban a way of thinking, it's just curing symptoms and doing so in wrong places while we're at it. Sure, it'll make a problem seem to disappear for a little bit, but don't worry, it'll reappear soon enough under different name if it hasn't already. People who are still prone to that way of thinking will just start rallying under different symbols. Mankind is flexible like that. I'm even willing to bet that vast majority of neo-nazis are using Nazi swastika out of desire for violent radicalism as opposed to any actual connection to Nazi beliefs. I really wish we could just start using swastica for what it actually stands for rather than demonizing it for the sake of it...
Post edited February 28, 2015 by Fenixp
Posted February 28, 2015
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Protoss: Well, I see at the two biggest points of how it works in Austria:
1. They use PEGI instead of a homebrew organisation.
2. They have practically no censorship in video games.

Sure, the criminal code is not the only law that would need to be changed, but it would be a beginning.
All fair and square. However, why you want GOG to change that for YOU? Take up your civil rights if you disagree with your government. Form a Bürgerinitiative with other gamers, where some may even have experience in the law field. Contact the german gaming media who can provide assistance or at least coverage.

Instead of taking action, you do what gamers do best: complaining on a board, demanding others to do it for you. /facepalm
Posted February 28, 2015
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rotorde: So the problem is basically that there are legal grey zones. If gog would have stayed in the grey zone then they would have been fine until someone started to fix the grey zones. The outcome would then depend on the new laws. I guess the good thing is that this is making Germans now have more incentive to talk about their censorship laws. I can understand the frustration because changing laws is not going to happen fast.

I would think the issue of censorship has been brought up time and time again in Germany. Are there political groups trying to debate this with the government? Is there just not enough people who care?
This is a comparatively small and niche issue in Germany, it isn't so much about censorship as it is about underdeveloped and reactionary internet laws and a snobbish disdain for videogames in general, and the only lobby for addressing those is the Pirate Party which after a good start isn't doing too well in Germany due to internal quarrels and lack of professionalism. GOG blocking a few games from their store won't be an incentive for anyone to actually change the laws, especially considering that so far only a small minority of gamers even knew about GOG and that the problem is much bigger on Steam and present for decades, and besides it's just a handful of antisocial gamers butthurt that someone took away their misanthropic killer toys, first world problems. :P
Posted February 28, 2015
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Licurg: This again ? USE A VPN ! IT COSTS NOTHING !
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FrasierWCrane: Many people came to GOG exactly because they don't want to do that. They don't want to buy stuff and feel like some criminal by doing it. And that was one of GOGs flagships for as long one days ago, when they decided to stealthily change it without notifing their customers.
Yes. This are two things that annoy me as well.
One: GOG introduced censorship. Without anything changin in German laws, GOG suddenly feels the need to bar Germans (and Australians) from some games. Why? It worked before without censorship? Is this a side-effect of the German sub-forum? Then, please, remove that German sub-forum immediately! It is FAR more important, to stray true to your roots, than to have language specific sub-forums! (one world ... etc., remember when you stood for that? )
Two: GOG started this censorship crap stealthily. They didn't put up a big 'sorry guys, we got a court order' thread to explain what was going on. No, they just went back on one of their principles without big fanfare and without any explanation.

Yes, I know I can use a VPN. But I didn't want to have to do that. Previously GOG functioned on mutual trust. GOG treated everyone equally, and GOG customers treated GOG fairly. Now GOG is turning it's back to this mutual trust policy. Checking IPs, regional pricing and now region locking ... creating ever more incentive to use VPNs and fake your location. Do you really want that, GOG?
Posted February 28, 2015
I'm looking at that list of games banned in Germany, and that 'Banned because of Nazi references' just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. How do you make a game/movie/TVshow/documentary/whatever about WWII in Europe without nazi references? Does that mean that all WWII movies and documentaries are banned in Germany?
If those games were making an apology of nazism I could understand it; but, as far as I know, nazis in Commandos and Wolfenstein are the bad guys.
What about every WWII wargame ever made? They use nazi symbols to represent the Axis, and you can play those games as the Axis... Why aren't those banned?
Posted February 28, 2015
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BreOl72: Believe me, those dimwits would only be too happy, if they were allowed to march the streets under the swastika-flag again.
instead they are marching without the flag. But the mindset is the same.
Forbidding the symbols is just for the sake of our peace of mind. So _we_ don't have to see this dreaded flag.
It's like this typical child reaction: close your eyes and the monster isn't really there anymore, right?
So we and our politicians can delude ourselves that the problem with neo-nazis isn't really that big.

Imho, fighting ideology by forbidding their abstract symbols is a bad idea, it never works.
Let them have their symbols, so the people can see what kind of people are marching on our streets.


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BreOl72: And this leads (for the nitpickers: MIGHT LEAD) to a certain connection: Having fun + Nazi symbols ->Nazi symbols aren't that bad -> Nazis weren't that bad -> Nazism is fun -> assign the learned to real life -> develop a fondness for Nazi ideas -> become a Neo-Nazi
thats the same line of reasoning that politicians use to argue for a general ban of shooters. Because people have fun with killing and are desensitized to the act of murder. While we are on it let's forbid the civilization games. People might start to like the idea of dropping nukes and ruling with a fascist government. And leading war and winning by world conquest is just so more fun than a peaceful culture game.
imo total nonsense
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThanks for censorship, GOG(233 posts)(233 posts)
(233 posts)