Back on catching up and figuring out where (Mafia/Town/Neutral) people fall for me.

Thanks. I didn't know that.
Forum Mafia seems to be a really popular game for "math people" (statistics/charts; from what was mentioned in other mafia games).

I understand the notion and it's appreciated, but if I'm a scummy/bad player, I don't deserve a free pass in my opinion. But I do appreciate "extra time" given to try and "learn the ropes" (I believe that's the phrase) as an active player. Of course the observerthread is less stress evoking.
Yogs stated once (or more; not this game), he always votes for whom he thinks is scummy. Have you played in games with him? If so: Would you say that is true?
Just so I get this right: I understand buddying and pocketing are the same thing, just different words?
You lost me at there, but when it was pointed out, I realized my brainfart: common firstname+emerald makes sense. My initial thought was, that it was an old/changed username of someone and I haven't followed mafia threads up until late last year, I think it was.

Thanks for the explanations.

Thanks for the background info on jesters.
If it makes any difference (if anyone takes it as thruth to begin with): I was merely using it to emphasize that my head was spinning.

Thank you.
I can't help but notice, that you said "some pleople", but then only mention Joe. What are your thoughts about dedo? (post 118)
Any thoughts on ZFR? And Micro?

I can understand a possible "process of elimination" = "easy way out" line of thought. But you're not giving any information on why you would/wouldn't vote (or in this case, actually did vote) for someone either. You're still a lynch candidate for me.


"eavesdrop secure method" refers to all Mafia/Neutrals (I take from the wiki, that SK's don't come in pairs or more), although I did get confused a bit about people mentioning Masons in combination with Mafia. According to the rules only non-town have that special chat. Which leaves Mafia and Neutrals.
You stated in 118 that you were "obviously alluding to the same thing" (coodinating it in scum/mason chat) and now you tell me you weren't?
What are your thoughts on SPF/SMFR?

EBWOB trent not dedo

Thanks for the explanations.

Yes hm. yes hm.

I was wondering why you chose to give a bragging rights duo, rather than the more traditional and more appropriate for a thirteen player game bragging rights trio?


I'm drawn to this reaction as genuine. But actually a scum who thinks they've seen a town say something incriminating might feel the same way if they realise they misunderstood... so forget that.


Right. Then yeah Carradice's town-lean is revoked.


If you offer a carrot then snatch it away when the donkey moves toward it, it was still a carrot you were offering ;p

As in, you linked Carradice's flip to four other people, offering them the chance to prove themselves. Thinking about it the three would be proved by your reasoning if Carradice flipped town, and the one if he flipped mafia, but whatever.

Still sad that you don't like me, but I think maybe scum zfr wouldn't say such blatantly contestable statements as that

And I don't see how, if me and Carradice were on a team, we'd do anything to stop us both being in the leading wagons in the way we were... maybe panicking? I dunno I guess we'd be saying in scum chat that one of us should bus the other one?

Hmm. I see. TBH, while I maybe saw it against SPF, I don't remember details from that far ago.

If it is your playstyle that strikes me as scummy, please know that I'm not asking you to adjust your playstyle. I know that I don't have the best playstyle, nor do I always try to learn as much as I should.
At least I am comforted in knowing that I am not scum, as you should be. I sincerely doubt that if I were scum that I would be as vocal and invite attention to myself. Howsomeever, I did. You truly haven't been scum in any of the games we've played together? :O I need to double check this statement. OTOH, you have no reason to lie about something so easy to check....
You were scum in Mafia 58.
however, i town-read you there. Should this color my view of you?
Maybe I should consider you town when I scum-read you, and scum when I town-read you?

Is it too late for me to change my vote or unvote and redeem myself? probably. What happened was i went along and said "this is valid, that is thin", decided that one was right and the other wrong and have stuck to it ever since, even ignoring some things that might signal opposite, or that at least you decide are signaling opposite.

Those who have played with me in the past also know that I very rarely am locked in on my votes and tend to flip flop quite a bit, no matter what my language of confidence, even when I am town [when have I not been town? :'( ] Exceptions are Yogsloth in his previous game and Scene in Cap'n Sapphire.

Obviously, you don't really care if I unvote you or not, as noone else is considering you, but would you please answer my question in 478 with who your reads are?

++++++++++

Thank you. When you say "neutral really" do you mean both of them, or just Joe (who the rest of the post is focused on?) Please explain more clearly how Carradice being scum = Town Joe?

++++++++++++++

Good for you--You caught that! I wondered if anyone would comment!

Well, others seem too, and one is supposed to base one's reads in part off of other people's reactions, or so ZFR implies. :D

+++++++++++++++

Pondering: if carradice is scum, this put myself, dedo and SMFR in a very bad light. But I know that i am town, so are those two scum?

+++++++++++++

Let me get this right--your wanting to vote Carradice was more because of things previously listed (by Carradice) as "bad form" not because of any major scum tells?

And while I thought it unusual, you weren't as vocal in your attacking us over our joke as Joe was. I wasn't willing to vote you because the red flag wasn't nearly as big on you as it was for Joe. Joe has played in every game that i have, unless he was mod. I have only played with you once, so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming that you wasn't paying any/as much attention in your hiatus. I was also waiting to gauge your playstyle more because, frankly, I didn't remember it. Also, Dedo, you has been away from the scene a bit, so I was trying to not give you a sour impression on your first time back in a while.

+++++++++++++++

Congrats on the gift and I hope you enjoy it!

++++++++++++++
I think i did voice it? Yes, i did. I qustioned the whole thing (rather obliquely?) in my #85 when i asked
The first half of Joe's post in question was with regards to the avatar affair:
I questioned regarding him again in 335 EDIT: I just noticed this doesn't fit the timeline, but it does reveal some of my thinking on Joe. Ofc, by this point I've voted, so meh.

187:
Again, i note an oddity of Joe's when i say I think all in all, my posts have shown that I have been wary of Joe, though not as openly as I was by my 328(?) that you reference. Also, others have cast doubt on still others without drawing ire, and perhaps have even voted based solely upon this (Gogtrial in 454 comes to mind). Why single me out?
Again, once I box people up in compartments, in this game, it usually takes a lot for me to change my mind. ZFR Joe and you pushed me hard to reconsider, so i did, and now you blame me for reconsidering? When i reconsidered, i did so without viewing my notes, so as to get an unbiased frame of mind because I had already forgotten what I had previously said. And the end result was my removing my Joe vote because while I had been casting aspersions (85, 187). note that others thought it odd enough that I compared with others to see. Vitek, jokingly or not said the following, and it influenced my thinking to some extent.
again, the reason I didn't vote you was because Joe was hte worse culprit and i can only vote one at a time.

you will note that i haven't given you any town points either.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
unofficial VC
Carradice (4) - trentonlf, ZFR, Lifthrasil , Sir-something (498)
SirMrFailRomp (3) - Flockeschnee, gogtrial, Yogsloth (493)
Microfish (3) - Vitek, supplementscene, dedoporno (490)
Lifthrasil (2) - JoeSapphire, Carradice (491)
ZFR (1) - Microfish


Not voted: FlockeSchnee, yogsloth, Vitek, gogtrial, supplementscene, dedoporno, JoeSapphire, trentonlf
Not voting: nobody
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Please explain why you are voting for SirM? I haven't noticed your reasoning, and if others are giving me a hard time for not writing my reasoning, I can surely give you one too.
Are you used to this "most votes gets lunched even if not majority" setup (your 492)? What words of wisdom do you have to share regarding it?

I feel for your troubles and thank you for the screenshot.

>>>would everyone please answer with who your reads are? Stats state that some two of us won't see D2 as an active player, and thus these are the closing hours to help your team on D2.

I really mean this for town, as I don't care what scum players think.

your thoughts please and what was my score from your test? i responded to your 394 in my 403 and you haven't responded to me. You are making me sad. If you make me much sadder I'll have to go to my home and cry. What was your reason for those questions? how have your thoughts changed since then? You have posted since then without addressing my resonse to you in this regard.

also, 21 hours ago you in your 434 you said you were waiting for a response from me (you must have missed my 403) said you'd be around later. Are you okay? Are you around but in the scum chat?

No, seriously, are you alright?

(if anyone notes the difference between my posts now and those of ~24 hours ago, you can attribute them, in part, to my having gotten a decent nights sleep, being more or less coherant now, and not rushing to get something off before tottering into dreamland--all contrary to last night. I have taken the time to research my posts instead of going off of gut instinct. However, as this 2.75-page single-spaced essay has taken me over 1.5 hours, so I shall post it and go to bed soonish.)

I feel that there is something I am forgetting, but idr what?

Still waiting for a response from Scene.


Pre-post edits:
Speaking of which, Gogtrial voted Lift in 413
then in 437 says
What changed?
I know that I am innocent. ZFR says that he is. What moved Lift from "placeholder" to "scum"? You later change your vote, but you actually reason it out.
148 you come across as neutral re Lift.


++++++
what was your reaction to Gogtrials stated reasons now or in his 454? Do you
still have you opinion of SirMFR sitting back and enjoying the show?

halfway through Page 4, so i shall post and let others suffer through the reading of this thing.

bump please as I just got a ping and can't afford the brainpower to retype this now.

(emphasis mine)

Oh. Yes that makes sense.

Well that was what I was most interested in with regards to Microfish. If it becomes apparent that there are multiple scum teams or a serial killer or something else which makes it likely that we are dealing with a two-scum team then I think it's definitely worth considering this as a slip from microfish.

But, without that... well microfish generally does stuff for odd reasons and puts his foot in his mouth or in other peoples' mouthes.

Though when the Joe wagon loses traction he discovers that his reason for being on it in the first place and quietly excuses himself from it. That's not a great look.


I've still got a few things I want to respond to, but I'm not sure how useful it will be this close to deadline. I will, in case I picked up on something

I've gone off microfish for scum.

I've sort of gone off Lifthrasil based on this:

He tells me it's impossible for him to change my mind. I immediately start thinking perhaps he's got a point.

IF he reacted aggressively, backed off with the promise of glory, insulted me, revoked the insult then invoked my own contrariness all in the name of manipulating me into trusting him, then it's a thrilling effort and will be well remembered.
I rather choose to believe he's genuine.


SO I had

1 micro
2 lift
3 dedo

Now I have only vague scum-leans. Actually not even that, just what's left by process of elimination. Yes. Here's everybody I don't have an evidence-based reason for giving a town-lean to:

gogtrial
vitek
flockeschnee
dedoporno
trentonlf
microfish
carradice

of those I'm inclined to see

dedo
trent
carradice

as possible scum.

Trent's was vocal in pushing a town-Joe view at a time when a Joe wagon was looking viable. I should probably give him more town credits for that. But actually he makes a point of being honest with his reads when he's playing mafia. So Trent's in my list because he's a tough player to read based on evidence.


Carradice then. Based on process of elimination. A bit rubbish and seems unfair on him. But Sir not having much enthusiasm I associate with him when he's town, and micro I was reading into the "bragging right duo", when actually it makes sense as the clever lol now he explained it.



also gog dammit:
*see fig. 1*

In a nutshell, I had only picked two of them and didn't feel that I should rush into a 3rd pick without having a clew. Also, it was a tribute to the Unbeatable Duo, given the participants.

Would scum ZFR check before claiming that he and I had always been on the same (town) team in mafia? The record shows he is wrong, as he was scum in 58. Would he double-think this and let it slip hoping that i would check it out and see "he's wrong, mafia would check so he's town?"

wellllll, it was genuine, but i understand why you discard it. :(
Glad that you are okay, and hope that you have a truly lovely time with your mum!!
(Don't eat too much bacon, or there might not be any left for me.)

Again, I tend to like this post. Overall, I approve of the message contained therein (at least what I have included), which totally wrecks my earlier scum-leaning of you and my "bragging rights Unbeatable Duo recast."

I'm not sure I see the whole "3 proven if yes, one proven if no" bit? please name names. Dedo was also backing Carradice, though not as loudly as I, so how would Carradice's flip affect your impression of him? At risk of sounding totally floppy and scummy, my position on Carradice's innocence is wavering somewhat, though I do not believe that I could vote him toDay.

++++++++++

how many davenports does the queen have?!?!?! Also, teleportation is useful for a merchant. I'm glad he has it.

++++++++++++

We have several people here who like maths, and some who would ignore the whole thing if they could. :D
As I understand it, yes. Perhaps "pocketing" refers to a more successful attempt at "buddying", but I think the two words are interchangeable.

The wiki page on Masons states, Note that some mods put scum in a mason chat anyway, just to throw everyone into confusion.

I have never seen two SK on the same team that I recall, though I have seen a game that had a SK and a 3rd-party JOAT with a NK.

I like the post as well. It feels genuine.

But in #405 and #439 he had the attitude of "I have given plenty of explanations for my opinions" - while in #460 he effectively says "I have no opinions".
The latter matches with what he has actually contributed, and that makes #405 and $439 stand out even more to me. It's inconsistent - it's first trying to skate by on nothing, and then when put under pressure, changing his tune.

Do you see a non-scummy sequence for these two attitudes to both have been true? Am I seeing things as opposite where you see them as adjacent?
(FWIW, SPF himself responded to my questioning about it in #481, seemingly without seeing my point.)

"Taking the possibility into account" != "Actually thinking that's the case"

Conflicting. At one hand I don't like that he seems to be going with the flow and Carradice is his only scummy enough read (and I don't believe even that it too scummy, just enough to "justify" a vote). On the other hand he was not feeling well for some time and the general state of the game is indeed quite hard to pick a lot out of with having good arguments behind it. #460 was marked by someone (gogtrial?) as AtE but I don't think I've even seen SPF do something like that before as scum to get away.


I don't have a lot against Carradice, no. I believe PMGate happened so I'm only considering what happened post-280. And in there the only damning event was the instant attack at ZFR when he unvoted. That looked real bad. There is this "I was half-asleep" explanation which I don't buy at all. Other than that I have nothing on Carradice.

Fair enough. When I'm not playing I pay zero attention so being away for a few month really resulted in a large hole of GOG history knowledge. I get what you're saying here and thank you for cutting me slack if it's true. But why didn't you at least mention you were giving me a free pass for whatever reason? I wouldn't hurt, on the contrary - it would have prevented this particular discussion.

I won't re-quote the other few lines which are a continuation if this one. I'm not saying you didn't notice it or ask/poke around things Joe did. What looked weird to me is that all this suddenly resulted in an adamant conviction about Joe being scum which was there all along. Yet none of these suggest a solid scummy ping that only deepened with each additional question. And it's also weird that on second read all those things are somehow not the same.


Unfortunately I have to go now (I haven't even read past what is the second half of Micro's post). I'll do my best to drop by at least one more time before EOD.

In a game with daychat? Most certainly, particularly if the reasoning is unlikely to convince others.

Thank you for all that, but the reason I asked for clarification is that what I asked you about in #437 wasn't about ZFR at all, but about Joe, to whom you said, in #403, "All I've gotten from you are scum vibes."

Really, I don't see how you get from #403 ("All I've gotten from you are scum vibes.", "things just seemed off", "You seem different, your scum hunting seemed phony or opportunistic, and we are/were reading the same situations from different sides throughout today"), to #457 ("I have reread Joe and, at cost of looking fishy, don't seem to see what I thought I saw."), with the only things in between being #403's "If you keep it up, I will remove my vote from you to ZFR." while the only things Joe provided in between were his reads lists #430 and #434, with micro firmly in scumslot nr. 1.

I also find the timing suggestive, with dedo unvoting Joe in #367, and me in #413.

So, micro, let me ask again, acknowledging that you now don't get scum vibes from Joe anymore: When you did get scum vibes from Joe, when did they start?

But what I asked was: "what was so significant about the questioning in #268 that you specifically felt the need to point out that you wanted to read the response to it, given that no other questions have elicited a similar remark from you (that I've seen)." (emphasis added here). So that question still stands.
(FWIW, the reason I didn't press you previously is that you wrote "i have over 50 posts to read and no time now", and I myself was also at the end of my day, so chasing up on things was of secondary concern.)

You hear a voice inside your head saying some words in reply(the voice seems to be that of the humble merchant, but as to WHERE it's coming from, you haven't the faintest idea) :

"That's nothing...you should see her collection of Chifforobes. Both collections have several pieces furnished by myself, actually"

As soon as the voice entered your mind, it departs. You notice a few others have been staring at you....apparently you had been looking around in a daze the entire time....most embarrassing.

As this does feel very much like town-you: If you're town, stop being so damned conscious of how you will look, and act with conviction, for The Greater Good. Yes, you will be suspected by various other players during the game, and yes, scum will probe such things for weaknesses - but town players will be questioning you, not to lead you into a trap, but to see if what you're saying holds up! Self-moderating like this means that our questioning has fewer useful things to work with.

Which of SPF and micro do you think is scummier? (SPF was your third choice, but then no more, so I don't know how that compares to micro.) Any specific arguments against them which you like or dislike?

Up to #490; needing to take a real life break now. I'll definitely be around in the final hour before EoD, but will try strongly to find some more time today.

It didn't make me more angry, and if it did, I wouldn't vote you because of it. It just made me read you more scummy.
It's really difficult to make me angry-vote someone, but if anyone wants to try then messing up your probabilities is a good start. I think I only voted once just to spite someone: against scene when Joe was Hitler, despite knowing in my gut that I'm wrong.


Not at all, my point about playstyles is that even a "good" playstyle can seem scummy by its nature just because our own playstyle differs. HSL always used to ping me as scummy, despite being a very good Mafia player. Just the way things are I guess.

I completely forgot that you were in #58 too. It was my only game as Mafia and it seems ages ago. But it's actually after Captain Sapphire.

"Neutral really" referred to both Joe and Lift.

I don't usually question bragging rights trio (I know I do mine based on gut feeling early and for fun), but do you think Micro can be scum, without Carradice being one.?

Sorry. It's weekend again, which means I'm busy and mostly without internet. So I can't contribute much or even read everything. I still think that Carradice is a good lynch and his attempt to deflect attention towards me doesn't convince me otherwise.

But next week I'll be travelling less. So if I'm still alive, I'll be able to contribute more.

That's a good question. Is that variant as problematic for Town and as beneficial to scum as ZFR suspected? (I suppose this may not be answered today but that doesn't matter, it's still nice to get a better idea from someone who has experience with it).