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General discussionGOG Mafia #67 - Mamlakat al Shams(1419 posts)(1419 posts)
(1419 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 19, 2020
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ZFR: What narratives/tales are those? What's the narrative (aside from "Carradice is scum") over which we clash?

(Also, I've read 275 again. I can't see how it says that by 210 Carradice hadn't read his PM yet. It says 1 day after first post, which looking at the logs could be before or after 210).
As I previously explained in 382
he was consistently talking through post 266-ish, then took a multi-hour break, the forum changes from "2 days ago" on 267 to "yesterday" on 275, and [Carra]dice states "he hadn't read his pm until he was done writing yesterday." What could be more clear than this?
What part of this is hard for you to understand?
If I'm wrong I would be shocked. If I was a tad bit more certain and had a house made out of bread I'd even state that i would eat my hat if wrong. however, i have no bread-based hat, so i won't.

The narrative is that you are scum and Carradice is town because his logic is better than yours and you are tunneling on the offensive. the only post where i recall him really being on the offensive and not defending hisself is what you call the "opportunistic vote" which does smell. what did you think of his response as reason for it?

@Dedo I'm asking you to join me on ZFR for this exact reason: stubborn refusal to see what is as plain as day to you and me.


@Scene? really? i said up front that i would be busy, that i only come in every once in a while to post. I usually post (long lengthy verbose posts) before falling asleep at night (this is an anomaly), and I took one night off (last night). You have been as or more lurky than i am (your 22 posts to my 20). Why should I and not you not be the one being voted on? What difference is there between us? You ignore me until I vote ZFR, and then pop out of the woodwork within a half-hour of my doing so in order to vote/scrutinize me? I think that I have a pretty good lead here, as i see it, and because I am willing to pursue it....? this vote of yours makes 0 sense to me.... What post do you see as me coming out defensively (other than this one, and it doesn't count because you already saw a defensive post of mine)

The bit that you quoted was a response to Joe, who was asking why I was voting him and many other things. By the time you quote this I had already swapped to ZFR.

come to think of it @JOESAPPHIRE you never did give me my test scores. Gib plz. NAOW (or sooner than later).
Posted June 19, 2020
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Microfish_1: My scummy vibes from ZFR began off the top of my head some time after we were discussing the avatar joke and about the time Dice started taking flak.
Just to clarify, this is in response to my #437, in which I ask you "When did these scum vibes start?"
Posted June 19, 2020
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SirMrFailRomp: Lynch me if you really can't stand waiting until I have a chance to get going, or give me an actual chance to warm up. I'm not going to start pulling stuff out of thin air on D1 just because "I should have something".thing.
The thing with this attitude - which is not very helpful, but is fine for an ATE - is that it seems somewhat hard to put it in the same narrative with responses like:
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SirMrFailRomp: Ask specific questions please, I don't know which opinions I haven't given sufficient explanation for.
and
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SirMrFailRomp: I feel like it was at least explained enough.
Also, the one time you were actually putting up something of an argument was here:
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ZFR: Why not? He could not read the PM and still be scum.
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SirMrFailRomp: Sure, but the choice to not read the PM is inherently NAI so it essentially leaves his odds of being scum at the base probability from the dice rolls used to distribute the roles. Of course he could be scum, but I don't see it as any more likely than anyone else being scum at this point.
Which to me feels pretty defensive of Carradice - and yet now he's your prime suspect (even if "not a strong case").
Posted June 20, 2020
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Microfish_1:
What's your read of SPF?
Posted June 20, 2020
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Microfish_1: he was consistently talking through post 266-ish, then took a multi-hour break, the forum changes from "2 days ago" on 267 to "yesterday" on 275, and [Carra]dice states "he hadn't read his pm until he was done writing yesterday." What could be more clear than this?

What part of this is hard for you to understand?
Nope. Still don't see it.

Carradice posts first time
Period X: day passes (more or less; gog logs aren't clear)
#210-265
Period Y: (couple of hours pass)
#275 I did after I was done writing yesterday. "I chose not to read it for one day" (emphasis mine)

"After I was done writing yesterday" needn't have referred to post-210. It could have been something he wrote in period X.
The second sentence says that he chose not to read it FOR ONE DAY. Which I took to mean One day since his first post. Which could be pre #210.

I'm willing to concede that in his post #275 he meant that he hasn't ready his PM by #210, but I really disagree with you "What could be more clear than this?" Yes, it could be more clear than this. Easily. This whole "when did I read my PM" timeline isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Do you know exactly when he read his PM because he told you in scum chat?

For someone who accuses me of tunneling, your last 2 major posts focus on me only. And, at risk of sounding OMGUS, in a way that looks suspicious.

First you twist what I wrote ("only to prevent it becoming a distraction") and now coming with "faced with two differing and clashing narratives".

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Microfish_1: The narrative is that you are scum and Carradice
No it's not. You made it sound as if there are "clashing narratives". Mine and Carradice's. What are they. (Answer ZFR's narrative is X. Carradice's narrative is Y).
There aren't any narratives here. I think Carradice is scum. You don't think he is? Sure. Many people don't. A few read him Town. You don't agree with my reads? Very good.

But you portraying it as a "clash of narratives" changes this in a subtle way. It gives the impression that one has to be wrong and the other right.

I don't like this.

I'd vote Micro. Wouldn't want to lynch him D1 twice in a row. But if it comes to that I will. And if he flips scum we really need to take a close look at Carradice, because the only reason scum!Micro would do this is if Carradice is scum.
But if Carradice is scum, might as well lynch him.
Posted June 20, 2020
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gogtrial34987: Who was he mean to, on what subjects?
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SirMrFailRomp: That was half a joke really. I do have the impression of him being snarkier than usual but I wasn't really suggesting that as a reason to vote for him.

@all:
As I've been saying, I've got nothing other than vague ill feeling towards Carradice for the PM thing.

It's D1, nothing else has stood out. I could dig around and make a mountain out of a molehill, but it was be entirely to placate people. If I was scum that's what I'd do, but I can't be bothered.
Lynch me if you really can't stand waiting until I have a chance to get going, or give me an actual chance to warm up. I'm not going to start pulling stuff out of thin air on D1 just because "I should have something".
Ok, I like this post. I don’t see a scum SMFR making this post. Your being sick early this week is what I hope has brought and kept you down in participation/effort. I was not looking for you to make reads to just make reads because if you had I would have switched my vote to you. What ever has you down kick it’s ass because if you’re Town we need you active and hunting.

I rescind SMFR as my third option today.
Posted June 20, 2020
Exhausted today but I will be around most of tomorrow.

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Microfish_1: I have reread Joe and, at cost of looking fishy, don't seem to see what I thought I saw. This bothers me because I like things being in neat little packages and in their proper place, especially when I have assigned someone to a package. I still think he's scum, but this is more of a gut feeling than any one post that I can point to. Who knows? My gut has been right before when my head was wrong. Vitek seems to like him, and I've heard good re Vitek's playing. I'll reluctantly drop Joe for now (over a snowbank) because no one else seems to see him as scummy
Oh my, you are right, it is fishy.
You were pretty adamant about him and when asked and pressured about it you can't point at anything at all but still find him scum.
Then you buddy up (the preson voting you) with your acknowledgement of my read on Joe, but that read is not even correct?
Not fan of this.
Posted June 20, 2020
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gogtrial34987: Just to clarify, this is in response to my #437, in which I ask you "When did these scum vibes start?"
Yes, it was meant to be. sorry that i don't have a post number off the top of my head there, i'll iso and give you one
i smelled something weird as early as 137, but this could be different perspectives.
i liked him wholeheartedly up to 135. idk why we never pursued this lift angle, but...
210 i thought was "Town!ZFR but then he (321) and trent corrected me by telling me it was NAI, thereby erasing ZFR's town point.
at 319 (paragraph 3) i am reading him as leaning scummy
344 he says "it's not my only reason" but fails to give any other reasons. in 407 he says his "other reason" is hte "opportunistic vote" which doesn't happen until 359. Other than that, it's "just a vibe" (again, 407). (Yes, he does say "201-265" but dedo (351) and I vouched that the day break came after 265.
he has ZERO reads on anyone but a passing early vote on Joe ("& Lift."). In fact, he gives ZERO scum reads for anyone else. He says "dedo's post is bad" early on, but other than that he ignores everyone.
re 431: do i not edit my posts? not when they are 3 pages long and i get called away in the middle or writing. besides, i have been dinged in the past for not showing my thought process as it happened but just jumping to the end and saying "here's my thoughts based on what has been said" ppl think i haven't been readint the stuff in the middle or something because i don't comment on it. so, this time i tried to show my thoughts.
You asked and i failed to asnwer (shame on you for not pressing!) the bit i really liked was vitek question "Do you think it is the case (all scum are not-voting)? If so, why are you voting someone who was voting at the time instead?" and i also like scene's response to same.

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dedoporno:
read above for my reasons to vote zfr

SPF: I ignored him when he was sick because of courtesy. Since then, he has been skating without much to say in any event. I'd be willing to lunch him, but only because he hasn't been really contributing that much. which is understandable and NAI, but not very pro-town.

reading 470:
i think that i finally get what you are saying re timeline, but i just don't buy it. Sorry. And yes, he has been different than usual, but at risk of sticking my boots in the sand and digging in, I'm saying I don't think you have a good case against him.
Fair point to you, he could have specified when he was going to read his PM. But i think the 15 hour gap is the answer. No, he has not always been the towniest of townsfolk, but moreso I think than you.

My most recent post is about 50/50 you/scene, in answer each time to direct questions.
if i recall correctly, my previous post 457 is also a direct answer to something on page 9. (437) it also includes general catchup for 19 hours.,

any twist wasn't intentional but was how i honestly read your post. "if only" to me means "meh...it's as good a reason as any" not "one of the reasons".

if Carradice is correct, you are scum, and carradice is town because no two team players would go this long and far on this dispute for the sake of distancing. you theorize that he is the scum and thus you are town. both cannot be correct. thus i said "two disctinct narratives." would you have preferred if I had said "viewpoints"?
Because honestly, I do not see how you can both be wrong or both be correct. It has moved to an "Either/Or" scenario. At least to me. i fyou have any theory as to how you coul dboth be town, or both be scum, i'd love to hear it. seriously.

Oh, and I'll flip town. Iguaranteeit. Pooka could too, but he won't.

+++++++

i saw Joe as extremely fishy due to his whole avatar fixation in RVS. since then he has felt off, (others acknowledged this) but someone asked so i reread him and failed to see him as fishy as I had compartmentalized him to be. his 394 was the first post with logic chains that i could follow that made valid points.<<

tbh, my inital vote was mostly serious but also trying to gauge his response. soemthing that is commonly done around here. I still don't like everything about Joe but I can't exactly put my finger on it (I know his singing voice is lovely, so it can't be that, and his comedic timing is perfect so it can't be that either, but maybe he started singing his jokes? and setting his music to comedy timing? this would be bad)
Posted June 20, 2020
I'm not fully up to speed yet. And I need to sleep. Will continue in a few hours.

For now:
Would vote SPF and GR/yogsloth. They're not giving (much of) anything "to work with".

And with everyone else I need to think about possible intentions from Mafia/Town side. This is difficult.

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SirMrFailRomp:
You must have thought something when you made the following two posts, so please elaborate?

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SirMrFailRomp: Hmm. That's actually quite interesting.
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SirMrFailRomp: The avatar shenanigans are irrelevant but the fact that some people thought they were important might not be, I buy trent's explanation re: voting for scene.
You must have thought something when you posted this, so please elaborate?
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yogsloth:
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yogsloth:
Posted June 20, 2020
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Microfish_1: if Carradice is correct, you are scum, and carradice is town because no two team players would go this long and far on this dispute for the sake of distancing.
Why do you not consider T vs T?
Posted June 20, 2020
Here and catching up. We finished our Tabletop Sim game from last night. Turns out there was a way for me to win after all.
Posted June 20, 2020
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Microfish_1: ...
Maybe I tunnel a bit on people from time to time. Everyone does I guess. But I do gauge reactions. If I accuse someone but Town read them based on reaction, I back off. There isn't really much to by on D1 so I pick any small reason against someone and see if it sticks. Sometimes the reason is as flimsy as a gut feeling. Still good to observer the reaction.
You've seen it happening agaisnt SPF 1, 2 games ago?

In this case, Carradice's reaction doesn't seem Towny to me. Far from it. Yes, I admit my initial accusations might have been weak and not too valid, partly because I didn't fully get the timeline of the post reading, or been based more on gut feeling than anything concrete, but his reactions didn't do anything to make that gut feeling go away. I've mentioned the opportunistic voting. The ""You are welcome. Can you at least provide a semblance of rationale over this vote?" and "ALLL WEEE AAAAAARE SAAAAYIIINNNNNNNG.... IS GIVE REAAAASONNNN AAAA CHANNNNNCEEEEEE....." To be honest it reminded me a bit of the very first game of Secret Hitler where scene would use all wrong illogical arguments to accuse me of being F, and was only right by chance, but for all the wrong reasons. I was F that game, and I see Carradice in the same spot as scum this game. I don't see him fixating so much on me if he were Town.

You have scum-read me practically every game we played together, except for the first one with Captain Sapphire. I was never scum in any of those games. I know it won't mean much now while the game is in progress, but after it is over and you do see that I'm Town, please consider it for the game after that that maybe it's just my general playstyle that rubs you as scummy.
Of course, assuming you're Town now. If you're scum it doesn't really matter I guess (and in that case I'd hate to lynch you D1 before you got your first factional kill discussion... though you could do it in Day chat I suppose).
Posted June 20, 2020
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ZFR: Why do you not consider T vs T?
Good question: I considered it, but I just don't think that two townsfolk would be so "at each other's throats" this way if they weren't town. It would mean that you, as town, would need to be awfully wrong, and it would mean that Carradice is wrong...it would also mean that i've wasted all of D1 reads. Now, my question to you and everyone is this...when you/we have collectively blasted those who repeatedly don't vote, why does SPF get a pass for finding nothing vote-worthy on D1?

Again, ZFR, what are your thoughts on Lift & Joe now? You didn't answer. (Maybe I forgot to ask other than mentally?) You pegged them as scum earlyD1. In fact, please give a reads list of everyone.

One thing is clear to me, and that is that I don't think i can afford to chang emy vote at this point without looking even worse than some htink i do.

My reads list graduated scale from T>C>S
leaning town:
gogtrial
trent
Flocke
carradice
micro
center
dedo
vitek
scene
yogs
spf/smrf
joe
lift
zfr
leaning scum
willing to lunch the bottom third
Posted June 20, 2020
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Microfish_1: Again, ZFR, what are your thoughts on Lift & Joe now? You didn't answer. (Maybe I forgot to ask other than mentally?) You pegged them as scum earlyD1. In fact, please give a reads list of everyone.
Neutral really. Joe acted suspicious a tiny bit. One the other hand scum!Carradice seems to indicate TJoe
Posted June 20, 2020
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Microfish_1: My reads list graduated scale from T>C>S
leaning town:
gogtrial
trent
Flocke
carradice
micro
center
dedo
vitek
scene
yogs
spf/smrf
joe
lift
zfr
leaning scum
willing to lunch the bottom third
I'm still reading and periodically refreshing to see if there is new stuff and I just had to do this quick insert.

You consider yourself the less Town than 4 other people???
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGOG Mafia #67 - Mamlakat al Shams(1419 posts)(1419 posts)
(1419 posts)