So you say about Europe, but really, what have you done yourself to come to know it? You have been away from your nation, I gather, but it is because you do not want to be there or to pronounce dislike for other nations because you can think you can afford it?

How many of the four Swiss national languages are you fluent in? Do you always vote when direct democracy type of questions are asked? Any cross-language palls?

And mind you, a Swiss Italian Folkhochscule Beidere Basel Deutsch VII fellow student thought the Swiss do not know each other too well across the language divides.

What say you?

Greece is for sure most significant for what Europeans are, as Lebanon would be, I think, while being rich on dual identity, but this does not excuse blatant corruption.

Turkey - I love Istanbul where I have been several times, and I know it is not representative of Turkey, maybe, but also... I shall hope a Somali child shall never be pushed out of a train in Finland besides the metropolitan train.

For a native of a nation that is secure enough as not to go on UN, why do you think you can afford to find it hilarious for Turkey to identify with Europe??

My personal view is: Turkey wishes to associate with Europe, which is most welcome and this is not too unsimilar to accepting that Mandela wanted to end apartheid.

I do not accept to white wash the violence against pro-democracy demonstrators - but did a lot of us not actually ask for it, by not wanting to accept "muslim" entrant into EU? Be confident of your religion, and more noble in your actions by your tenants of faith - what does it matter if someone thinks different?


Edit: "...does "NOT" excuse blatant corruption", in the fifth paragrah. Too long a sentence, I think, as would be the peché mignon, eh! ;-)

I'd be happy to answer your 5 new questions if you would be so kind to answer the one question I have been asking you more than a week now (post number 77).
It appears at least one or several events during your stay here in Switzerland have prompted you to feel unwelcome due to your Finnish nationality and I would like to know what the occasion/those occasions were? I'm not at all saying I don't believe you (can't disbelieve what I haven't heard yet) but you haven't given us any info on this so I'm not sure what to make of it.
Reason why I'm persistent about this: There are other Finnish members here on GOG besides you and if they read your original post, they might think Switzerland is a place where Finns are not welcome and that is simply not true. Unless proven otherwise, which it hasn't so far and the burden of proof lies with you in this case. If you're going to cry wolf, I want to see wolf. Show me something wolf-like please, even wolf droppings would be better than nothing!
It's your right to exercise freedom of speech, of course, but it's everyone's right to challenge and question what you claim.
Xenophobia does exist here in all shapes and forms just like it does anywhere else, no doubt about that. But I've witnessed so many situations where it turned out to be failed communication and misunderstanding that - once addressed and identified - can easily be avoided in the future. And that's what it's all about: the future. I can't undo your past bad experiences but I can and will gladly help to avoid such things from happening again.

I detailed my personal story in post 147. As for other residents in Sweden, any place you find more than a couple of Somali families you find people who have something against Somalis, from just being inconvenienced by them to outright harassing them in the streets. For religious reasons I spend a fair amount of time with them and I'll admit some of them really are drawing negative attention to themselves. What a lot of Swedes fail to understand is that there were two waves of Somali immigration: The first one in the early 90's, the second one in the latter half of the 00's. The ones who came to Sweden at a young age in the 90's have typically "assimilated" just as well as any of the other distinct group of immigrants, while the recent wave are children and former children that have grown up in and only known life a failed state with little education and often dead or missing parents. It is easy for sheltered Swedes to think that certain knowledge and mannerisms are natural and so they can not comprehend the conditions that raised young Somalis to be so loud, confrontational and seemingly unintelligent.

In reality, as with most distinct groups of immigrants, it is usually just one family out of the tens that live in the same residential area that have a sociopath or perhaps even criminal way about them. One family full of opportunist sociopaths who love spreading rumours and turning neighbours against eachother, or one group of three or more unemployed youngsters getting into petty crime and peddling drugs. It just takes a handful of individuals to tarnish the reputation of a whole neighbourhood to make it seem rife with anti-social and criminal behaviour, and the story is always spun in a way that "the Swedes" have to pay for it, usually with wildly exaggerated numbers (I keep hearing people saying unemployed immigrant families get MORE THAN 40,000SEK a month when in reality it is often less than 20,000SEK).

The blame falls on whole groups of immigrants, identified by country of origin and/or religion. To be fair though, the active blaming is also mostly done by a few individuals who make it seem like they are just voicing popular opinion. The anti-immigration focused party "Sverigedemokraterna" market themselves as the party that stands for what "all" Swedes are really thinking but dare not say because of political correctness and that any opposition to this notion is just liberal socialist propaganda meant to keep their party from becoming the greatest.

Yeah some "mac" user tried to degrade my Windows using.. He showed too many cards when he said my media processor is faster then yours..

Ah well, eventually I might get to your post 147, but I also should point out that I also have a thread that seeks Turkey, and the Turkish, as part of Europe, where I think they might belong should they like so,

That is all.

What are you talking about, and what dislikes ?

Personal viewpoints:

- Difficulty in getting appointments to view apartments before a lovely local colleague would call for me

- Getting rather an anachronistic (from my view point) questionnaire relating to a C-Ausweis - dated on the date I was supposed to provide my answers, no less, to enhance the aspect of bullying - asking among other things if I could ask money from a 3rd Party. Sorry, I am of legal majority (over 18) in this country legally.

Thankfully a lovely local HR person holds my torch, and took the case over, and I have now my C-permit with "apologies" for a misunderstanding. I take it that the bureaucrat processing it was only sorry that it happened before Masseinwanderung Initiaitve, by a month or two...

- Masseneinwanderung Initiative. Shall CH not have gotten quite some net benefits from importing labour and exporting goods?

I am pretty okei to be deported (preferably in the same plane as Kimi Räikkönen) as I would prefer that Switzerland would simply sever the bilateral agreements with European Union, not go for cherry picking.

- Local dialect fixation. I find it painful when voicemail is left to me in Baslerdialekt because even my generic German is WIP - I mean, I might as well be from Swiss French or Italian Cantons

There are a few solidarity viewpoints too. I hope you will make an allowance for a degree of solidarity in my discomfort, too, as such? To exaggerate the point home, surely a number of Eurasian ZA citizens felt poorly about Apartheid.


Edit: added "French" to second to the last paragraph. Ausweis was meanwhile correctly spelled: vielen Dank Herr Ruppen und Fahrzeugausweis! ;-)

I simply thought this particular passage was rather down-telling:

Telika: "Europe" is such a fuzzy, arbitrary notion that the discussions abut Turkey's inclusion are truly hilarious. And the greek identity is fantastic : Michael Herzfeld did a good job in describing how greek people can switch to "eastern" or "western" identity"

If your "imaginary frontier" was intended in a witty / sarcastic uplift to the above, I must put forward my Finnish lack of humour, eh, in the event of an unfair quotation? :-D

Warning: Monster size reply ahead, will have to edit in several phases to fit everything in. I'll probably fail but I'll try!
Finding and getting appointments is a major if not -the- main problem for most Swiss citizens nowadays, increasingly so and especially for those who aren't wealthy. Especially for Zürich: Everyone and their grandma want to move to Zürich because that's where jobs pay a lot and all the "cool" people and parties are (supposedly). Foreigners in particular are hellbent on moving to Zürich, that way they can have the sweet ass salary but won't have to deal with the "primitive local villagers" ...or so they believe. I live in a moderately sized city and had to check out 10 apartments before finally getting the 10th one, just counting the ones I could get an appointment for. And that was 8 years ago and I was born here and have a Swiss passport.
As for Swiss people being reluctant to rent to foreigners, that's very often the case, yes. But let me explain why there are many people who prefer to have Swiss tenants. In some cases it may be racism. But I guarantee that in the vast majority of cases it's because it's simply easier to hold Swiss tenants accountable than foreign tenants. A mere matter of financial security that has nothing to do with xenophobia.
Here's an example from the real world: A close relative of mine owns property and is renting out an apartment to a refugee from Eritrea. Even though the Eritrean guy is here for political asylum, he is currently vacationing in Eritrea for two months - the very country he is claiming to have escaped from and where his life is supposedly at high risk. He went there to get married and plans to bring his new wife here as well, fairly easy to do under current laws (Familiennachzug). Problem is, he isn't paying rent during those 2 months and there's not much my relative can do about it. He could cancel the renting contract but then he has to find a new tenant and during that time the apartment would be empty and unpaid for. Filing charges against the Eritrean tenant would be useless as he doesn't have any money of his own that can be claimed by winning any case in court and the authorities who are supposed to pay for the apartment since he is a refugee are simply not interested in taking responsibility, all they did was shrug it off and they literally told my relative: "So he is in Eritrea now? Well...nothing we can do. It is how it is…"
This isn't some right-wing SVP fearmongering propaganda story and it's unfortunately not an exception, these things happen all the time but you won’t see it in the newspaper. I understand you are not a refugee but have Ausweis C status but the problem of accountability is still there.
But as I mentioned above, finding an apartment anywhere close to the desired urban areas is super hard for everyone right now, including Swiss people. Unless you are a millionaire, in which case it's easy regardless of whether you are Swiss or a foreigner.

I've never seen the questionnaire you are referring to so I can't comment about it. Only this: Forms and paperwork are unfortunately part of every 1st world country out there and Switzerland is no exception. Difference is that here there's no way around paperwork and in a 3rd world country everything would be way more of a hassle unless you pay up and bribe everyone (and only then).

I didn't vote on the Masseneinwanderungsinitiative, nor have I recently voted on anything. Reasons for this later on.

But I would prefer it if the European Union (as it is now) would cease to exist tomorrow so that a solution can be found that does more good than harm starting with not destabilizing Europe. It’s not Switzerland that is “cherry picking”, it’s the EU that wants to do the cherry popping if you know what I’m trying to say…
If not, here in plain English: The EU wants their member states to bend over so they can do them in the butt, hardcore. Especially those who have some extra dough stashed away in there. Sorry for putting this in such vulgar terms but I'm afraid this topic is beyond the scope of this already lengthy reply. I can be more detailed if forced under duress.
As for Kimi Räikkönen, I’m afraid you won’t be able to join the Mile High Club with him because he is quite happy here and I doubt anyone is going to deport a tax payer with an 8-digit annual income. In fact, he is quite happy here in Switzerland because he can enjoy some peace and quiet here without crazy fans besieging his house. As I mentioned above, millionaires are welcome anywhere, that’s just how humans and money seem to work in this world.

I agree with you on this one. Those who know you are having trouble understanding Swiss German should just use High German. Besides, Baslerdialekt is painful to my ears, as well...
And no, I’m not from Zürich (they have hated Baslers for many centuries, typical city vs city rivalry).


Please forgive me for being frank with you, I don’t mean to be rude but I have a feeling you might be one of those expats who are never happy about where they are. I've met many expats on my travels (20 countries so far, only as a tourist in 19 of those but I do talk to everybody, locals and expats etc) and there’s this particular type of expat who will always complain about the country they are in. I have come to the conclusion that, very often, the main problem lies more with the person than the surrounding. I don’t know you so I can’t possibly judge you but as of now you come across a bit as the "ever angry expat". Please don’t get mad at me for saying this and correct me if I’m wrong, maybe I’m very wrong and this thread just doesn’t allow for me to realize it.

As for Apartheid, Switzerland isn’t South Africa or Germany etc but even if it was, there’s nothing I would personally feel poorly about. I don’t participate in non-constructive historical guilt tripping, that wouldn't do any good to humanity. More importantly, I see to it that I treat everyone fairly. I never place anyone I meet under general suspicion without good reason, be it an African refugee or a beggar in front of Coop/Migros. On the contrary, I talk to everyone and hear them out. Talked to a beggar for 2 hours just a couple days ago.
Not until I hear them out do I make up my mind and even then I try to refrain from labeling people, you see how I’m trying very hard (but admittedly struggling a bit) not to stereotype you as an angry expat. If I already had, I wouldn't be replying, cowardly hiding behind the impregnable walls of my ignorance.

As for solidarity viewpoints, yes they exist, here’s a recap of things I agree with you:

-It’s “ç%&//% annoying when people don’t switch to High German even if you politely ask them to please switch. Some people here are very stubborn.
-There exist some asshats in Olten. I don’t know any but it is statistically impossible for any region to be without asshats, so yes and sorry to your Taiwanese friend for that! Personally, I like Taiwanese stuff, Taijiquan and all.
-It’s harder to find an apartment if you are a foreigner (reasons detailed above)
-There are xenophobic people here who will discriminate upon you once they know you’re a foreigner. Some are racists as well but most of those people are just xenophobic in general.
-Forms and questionnaires suck and you could somehow call it bullying, yes. All form of government is in essence bullying. I’ll take it over anarchism, though.
-It’s possible that some people here dislike Finnish people, and possibly even dislike rendeer.

Since you kindly answered my question above, I’ll now honor my promise and answer your 5 questions, sorry again for another monster post but I take my promises seriously and I can't keep it short without creating more misunderstanding:

Yes I have, lived in the US twice, in different places. Once as a regular human being and once as a student… I gather you are trying to suggest one doesn’t get the same full perspective as a student that one gets as a worker. My reply to this is that it depends on the person: I walked through all neighborhoods at all times of the day and night and talked to everyone. Poorest of the poor, richest of the rich, learned a lot about humans! Haven’t met any Finns though during my stay there ;)

As pointed out earlier, I am a stranger among my kin as I’m only 50% Swiss and look like a foreigner of indeterminable origin and grew up in a little mountain village where I was the darkest kid in terms of skin color until a family from Sri Lanka moved in where both parents were from there. People think I’m Italian, or Spanish, or Tunisian, or Egyptian, or Taliban (most common guess nowadays, not kidding!) but so far no one has ever guessed right. I’m half Indian.
Have experienced some clear racism as mentioned but don’t see it as a problem, either retort with a better insult or laugh at them, it works.

I didn’t vote on that initiative, nor on any other vote in recent times. It’s not that I have turned into a complete cynic like George Carlin but I agree with him, if you do NOT vote you have a right to complain. If you DO vote and there are negative effects as a result to the way you voted then you can’t complain, Carlin makes a seemingly stupid but solid point in that regard.
The reason why I haven’t participated in this democracy thing in recent times is because I’d rather participate in things where I can make a direct difference and see results directly. Politics has to many bullshit barriers, making it near impossible for any halfway reasonable being to derive any enjoyment or sense of purpose out of it. This sounds like an incredibly traitorous thing to say for a citizen of a country where direct democracy exists, a super rare privilege that hundreds of millions of people all around the envy and dream about.

But as a neutral person with slight tendencies towards chaotic neutral (in D&D lingo), I’m finding it hard and often impossible to choose between two options. Initiatives only allow yes or no. And just choosing “the lesser of two evils” is not an acceptable option to me, when in doubt I won’t have any part in it. Many times I spent hours informing myself and listening to the opinions and argument of friends and relatives, only to arrive at the conclusion that voting either yes or no isn’t something I can fully get behind.
My liberal friends complain that this way I let “The Others” win and my conservative friends complain that I let “The Others” win. But no, I didn’t do any such thing. Being neutral doesn’t mean one is too cowardly to have an opinion, on the contrary being neutral is perhaps the hardest position to take because you can’t sit into a ready-made nest, you’re sitting on the edge of the coin from where you can see both sides. Do I have any better idea than direct democracy? No, I don’t. Sometimes, I have a suspicion that I might be some kind of a Taoist who simply doesn’t care and everything else is just an excuse. But you and I will never know this mystery!

Taoist response: I don’t know why, but it matters not in the Universe.
Rabbinical response: Why do you think I would know what they think? (followed by Rabbi Stone punch)

Liberal response: “Because the rural Swiss Germans are all selfish reclusive racists who don’t want to share and participate in our beautiful and wonderful vision.”
Conservative response: “Because the French cantons and Basel/Bern/Zürich are packed with communists and other traitors to the Nation who vote against reason just to piss us off.”
My response: see answers to previous question.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, but, as discussed elsewhere -and I must get back to it-, Europe is not a reality, it is a dumb, fetishised, label over an arbitrary number of countries, and this is highlighted by the unavoidable absurdity of its "frontier", which geographically passes through Russia (you're a Russian middle in Russia, but step one meter to the west and you're "an European" and step one meter to the right and you're "an Asian" ?), by the fact that it goes between Greece and Turkey (between this and that, between this and that, between this and that) as if there was a diffrence of universe between both, bigger than between Greece and Norway, and by the fact that Greece itself can be defined as "western" or "eastern" depending on the perspective (given tht "western" and "astern", themselves, don't mean anything specific).

I have no dislike for this cultural spectrum and its content. I have contempt for the arbitrary divides that are imposed upon it, based on contradictory notions (geography, language, religion, art, phenotypes, etc, do not all make the same chart), and that people are trained to refer to, and to percieve themselves through, leading to dangerously dumb oppositions and to paradoxical self-definitions. When we use discrete mental, lexical or administrative categories that do not account for life's continuum, we always end up in a mess. Especially as these categories then get naturalized (people start to percieve them as self-evident and "natural"), and even more when different values or worth get attached to them.

I seriously doubt there is a country in this world where someone won't look down on people originating elsewhere. It's just a very (unfortunate) human thing to group people into "us" and "them". I'm certain I would manage to find people in any country who would dislike me for being a Finn, even though we are mostly harmless. :-)

awalterj - I like frankness, and I do not find your query about me possibly being a prissy-footed expat rude at all.

I am meanwhile not an "expat" - I am not privileged or apart enough to be so. I think.

I lived about five years in Brussels, and two years in Scottsdlale ,US, and find both places very open in their own way. Brussels is wonderfully diverse and lives off from it, in the US they do not really give a damn who you are for better or worse. Both I liked.

Possibly the issue is that CH is too perfect, because I do see it as a rather prefect nation.

True. If you look at other primates(monkeys, chimps), they are guilty of this too. If a group of Langur monkeys entered an area claimed by a group of Capuchin monkeys, they would all probably go "WOO WOO WOO WOO" at each other then some minutes later, start flinging poo. Then after some time, if one group has not left the area, I imagine, both groups will start throwing rocks. Monkey blood will flow eventually and then one group will leave. It is the primate way...

You could be welcomed by monkeys in their territory but you would have to bring lots of delicious food with you to share and avoid eye contact with the alpha males. So if you apply this to humans, you could be welcomed in another country if you have lots of $$$ to share with people(if you are rich or wealthy basically) and show respect to the alpha males there. That is why no matter how xenophobic a country is, they will always welcome tourists who behave themselves... Tourists = $$$. If a tourist doesn't behave himself, he is basically challenging the alpha males of the country.