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@Joppo: Actually, it is really simple algebra... Normalized weights lend themselves to be dealt with as matrices and matricial product. That inspired, in turn, the idea of the trust-weighted matrix and whe skill-weighted matrix. It would be nice if someone with an interest in algebra picked this up and considered if there were other concepts in algebra that could be successfully applied to the problem.

Also, remember, like it was said to Lift, that these matrices are just an aid, another tool in our arsenal, just that. In particular, they shine when there is need for negotiation. They can be used as "virtual bandwagons" for analysis (not forgetting to analyze actual bandwagons, especially successfully hammered bandwagons.

To give you just a few examples of its use:

1) Having a general idea of the state of declared opinion.
2) Noticing who are the 3rd, 4th, 5th suspects (since the two main ones often direct the debate, but there might be potentiality for other options).
3) Negotiation and engineering of bandwagons.

Real use scenario: On D2, Micro had 10 potential votes (that was a frightening sight), and Flocke 9. It was clear that we were having a lunch. Next were ConsulCaesar, yogsloth, Pooka. Tthis player tried to avoid the townie lunch with a third bandwagon, unsuccessfully; if successful, that could have given us the townie Flocke instead of the scummy Caesar, to our advantage. At least the IC was saved, so it was a partial victory (had been defending him even before his claim, since RWarehall's remark)

Then, for analysis:

i) Checking anyone's backhistory for consistency, opinions by flipped people, etc.
ii) Scum has to invent their views. An easy way to catch a liar is forcing them to use their memory. In general, lies are forgotten more easily than truth.

Examples: SPF clearing ConsulCaesar so casually after having given him a high suspicion rate (a 0.7).
Opinion patterns of yogsloth, SPF. See how yogs, being the lighting rod, avoided attacking his scum mates, but SPF was allowed to suspect him for distance.

iii) Examining the opinions of non-flipped players and live virtual bandwagons.
That lead to the post quoted in #1047

Still finding new uses for it. It is just a summary that condenses what people express about others, made numeric for an easier analysis. Nothing more and nothing less.

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Microfish_1: If we lunch the wrong guy, and the doc if any protects the wrong person etc, we lose 2 players / Day and in 4 Days have 0 confirmed-or-nearly-confirmed town. If we fail to find scum but take non-scum to lunch every day, at 10 players the game could end in 4 Days with a 1:1 tie-or even sooner if there are two scum.
This is what has been said repeated times: pick your shots, we can win this but do not feel comfortable yet. Now, if we throw away what we do know, then we are making it easy for them.

Think of this: if we had processed ConsulCaesar instead of Flocke, now we might have another Joppo on the suspect pool, and things might be easier. On the other hand, if Micro's bandwagon had been successful (and this player did all what was possible to prevent that) things might be looking much worse.
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Microfish_1: I was looking at the horizontal row titled "Variance (Dispersion)". That is a concept I have forgotten.

Also, I'm not sure how to read the trust-o-meter chart, so despite all your hard work I shall leave it alone for now.

For confirmed scum, please leave their reads (like on me) alone so that we can more easily see who they were "clearing." That was why I asked for the long vs short sheet. Maybe it doesn't matter?
Those horizontal rows were mentioned on D2. They are part of the many little knobs and bolts in the spreadsheet. In particular, they measure how homogeneous a player's declarations about other players are. It is the inverse of the Controversy. For example, (taken from memory now), yogsloth's views were rather homogeneous. Also, the average, labelled "Severeness" offers the average suspicion probability that a particular player is offering about his peers.

The new pink columns offer, in each column, a view on ho

Needless to say: the spreadsheet is replicable and the formulae have ben published. No need for an Hypocratic Oath, but consider it was made honestly. There would not be any fun in doing otherwise, and these calculations have been made for the fun of contributing to solve the problem.
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Microfish_1: I don't see the issue with Flocke taking exception to the use of the word "hygienic" the way you seem to be; I know that jokes sometimes don't cross heart-language lines very well.... I have told too many jokes that people of other countries have told me weren't funny when translated into their heart-language (the language you think in, no matter what it is) or their humor was such that they just didn't find it amusing.
Probably you do not know what the concept of hygiene, Hygiene, hygiène, higiene, hygiëne, igiene... means. It is a Greek word. You can check your favourite dictionary or even the Wikipedia.
You missed completely that the comment on Flocke not understanding the meaning of hygiene was just an aside. Also you missed why HE not knowing the full meaning IS worrying. Of course, his lack of understanding of general knowledge of history added to the fact of not understanding that particular piece of wry humour.

The fact is that, even if he never seemed to be catching any of the jokes, that is his problem. Then, criticising someone saying that their comments "gives him the creeps" (WTF!) is surely bad. But, stepping on that to say that it seems like that person is scum is not knowing one iota of what this game is about. If you add to that the person he was attempting a chainsaw defense was the only one who was actively trying to help him, it adds insult to injury. It was ugly, bad play, bad form, bad manner.

And no, not going to explain that joke or any other. I someone is given a tool (like: take a look at the dictionary if you failed the first check) and said person neglects it, then it is absurd to keep trying. Help those who help themselves, that is a way to better focus your energy, quite often.

And now please explain how this helps in solving the game. The remark was made for the record, not for discussion here, and it was labelled explicitly as such.
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Microfish_1: Are you the GF?
The underlining has been added for this comment.
Please enlighten this new player, since this game has been declared to be a modification of a C9++ setup, and being a semi-open setup, we have no clear idea of what the available roles are. Experience has confirmed that we are to expect highly inusual roles. That said, with yogs being a one-shot and SPF being vanilla, a strong Scum3 is to be expected. That, or two less strong players, Scum3 and Scum4. People seem to be having lots of faith on Scum numbering only 3. Who started saying that? Ah, yogsloth. He said so many things. At least Micro is considering the possibility of having 2 remaining scum, which is something.

IF there is a GF, his role has been apparently be left useless, which would be to our advantage. In any case, if Town only has a three-shot Cop, then the GF role is underwhelming in this particular setup. Is that balanced?
In any case, refer to the last point in this post.

Microfish_1: @Everyone who isn't Carradice. Keep in mind that as town as I think he is, there is the possibility that he is 3rd party or even scum. I doubt it, but we won't know for sure until we find the scum. Ergo, take everything he says with a grain of salt.
The same can be said even of GR. Why this fixation with Carradice? It seems like you have forgotten who has been pointing a finger at both yogsloth and SPF as early as D1, trying to defend their marks almost single-handedly (completely alone in the case of Flocke). After nailing yogsloth on Day 3 solidly even before that GR posted?? Seriously, why??? This is difficult to understand. If you were not a confirmed IC, this would be enough to make you a suspect. If you have a case, make it at once. Else focus on whoever you think offers the best option to hit scum.

This is not saying that anyone should get a free pass. FYI, this player noticed how RW and GR had painted targets on their backs themselves on D1, and noticed that GR was signalling, from D1, his role, which at the moment was thought to be maybe a bluff. Later he gained town points to these eyes, and more after N3 for various reasons, but there is still a little room for suspicion. This means: suspicion to be kept in a corner of your mind, not to be taken publicly to dominate the discourse and keeping people busy with that. THIS is to mud the waters. Sowing suspicion on Flocke for no reason was muddying the waters. Making everyone suspect everyone all the time, negating the value of the admittedly partial information we have, so that we think we know nothing, is muddying the waters. Taking the conversation astray, whenever it is closing on something important, is muddying the waters. This is a very anti-town behaviour. More examples?

=> There it goes, another text wall that contributes to distracting people. Made in order to answer questions that should not have been asked at this point. These questions belong in the next phase of the late game, not now. If we fail to round up the remaing scum and thereby were forced to re-evaluate.

Will not be making many of these, from now on. Be advised.

Now someone asks what this means. /facepalm.

Scum3 may be happy :-|
>>Probably you do not know what the concept of hygiene

You meaning Flocke :-|

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There he is, JoeSapphire asking for things that were clearly explained in #1012, then again in #1021, and then answered again just a few posts ago, to LIft, in #1030

FUNNY
Carradice: There he is, JoeSapphire asking for things that were clearly explained in #1012, then again in #1021, and then answered again just a few posts ago, to LIft, in #1030
You think you are clearly explaining yourself but you aren't. Could you use quotes or something so I know what you're talking about?
GameRager: Dude, Yog clearly said to read the SCUM CHAT at end of game, and the self voted AFTER I made my posts essentially nailing him to the wall....how hard would that be to figure out? o.0
JoeSapphire: He does sarcasm a lot and I panic and overthink things a lot!
What reason would you have to panic after yogs revealed that he was Scum? Overthinking I get. But panic? That's a curious choice of words. Was that a slip? Did you actually panic because your (possibly last) buddy revealed himself? Why would Town!Joe panic in that situation?

trentonlf: or something along those lines. Whatever he starts spouting to wiggle his way out of being the scum he is just ignore him and lynch him.
JoeSapphire: This doesn't seem like a good tactic. And it doesn't seem like good trent.
This, however, I agree with.

ConsulCaesar: I'm safely back home, I will put my thoughts together tomorrow. It was a great trip. :)
Nice that it was a great trip, but 'tomorrow' is today by now. So please share your thoughts!
trentonlf: Not a 3rd party, would have been better if I was a 3rd party or scum as I enjoy those roles more.
I can relate somewhat...when I was fascist in the SH game it was a greater challenge to remain hidden and also win...though I ALSO was scared nearly shitless from worrying in that game about being caught as well. o.0

trentonlf: At this point I am so bleh about the game, I am not abandoning the game and I will answer any questions anyone has of me, but I am tired of trying to analyze everything in my head as to what's going on and who's lying and why. Lynch me, lynch Pooka, lynch Joe, I don't care much who it is anymore. If someone wants to use this as a sign of me giving up because I'm scum, well you'll be wrong but meh whatever happens oh well.
I can see how the game might burn some others(who don't crave the interaction as much like me, etc) out easily.

Question(s): Whom do you think(short list even or pointing to your older posts would also suffice if typing it all out again is too much of a chore) is scummiest/most viable to lynch atm(besides yourself that is) and why, and also who do you think the third party might be/what role they might have(yeah it's speculation but it'd be nice to hear what a vet thinks on this, I think)?
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Microfish_1: I'd like to take [player] to lunch.

Strict reasoning says [another player] might be better from a "clearing the picture" angle, but I suspect [player mentioned in the first sentence] is more suspect and gives a higher chance of finding scum.

I shall wait for Caesar and Joppo to give their promised reports before revealing the above names.
I will be holding you to said name revealing once said reports are posted. :D

Microfish_1: @GR I don't have room for all my steam games to be downloaded at once, let alone all of my gog installers.

Games like the Mordor games which require 80+GB apiece make me despair somewhat.
That's why just downloading the cracks/extra files for each bought/apid for game and keeping them at hand is good enough(one can always download the games from other sites as well, if need be).

Another aside: Also investing in a cheap external(portable) HDD seems wise, I think....I myself am poor, but am still saving up to get a 3-4TB external in the future for game installers/movies/save games/documents/etc. :)

Microfish_1: I have tried to follow that advice to this day, even though I am still tempted to repeat other players POV instead of reasoning for myself. in the end, if a player is scummy, several people will pick up on the same thing (reference Scene's last Day in 57)
Eh, if you have similar opinions as other players on a few other players then it seems(to me) like it'd be ok to post such.

Microfish_1: (Is this the point where I should/can post a LAMISS jokepost?)
Tbh I don't know why you didn't post any sort of joke when OP declared you town....go right ahead, my good sir. :)
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Carradice: At the time, There were very few voices trying to help Micro, and a single one trying to help Flocke. It felt like being a Cassandra, back then.
To be fair, I DID start to believe Flocke a bit before he got lynched but we were close to deadline and there was not much chance to "change course" for most of us at that point.

As for Micro, I gave him the benefit of the doubt a bit more once he claimed as well.
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JoeSapphire: It's called a Jester - it's not often used and people tend to complain about it if it is. If Trent IS a jester, and he's only voting for pooka because he thinks it's such a ridiculous thing to do that it's SURE to get him lynched, then... well, that would make me sad.
Like the chaps in pics related? ;)

JoeSapphire: What's all this about? Carradice said a similar thing, what's the benefit of everybody waiting around for stragglers before saying what they think? I appreciate a bit of dramatic tension, but...
I think he possibly doesn't want his picks to possibly influence either of them/give either of them ideas if they are scum.
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Carradice: Jesters break games. Professor ZFR has clearly put a lot of effort in balancing this one and making it interesting. It is safe to consider that there are not jesters in this game.
Fair enough, but again I assume next to nothing with such games...especially ones with such "unique roles" as this one.

Carradice: @GR: you mentioned what if they continue to lurk: See the example of joppo this weekend: First, he offers an explanation. Second, and this is the important part: using the little time that can dedicate to the game to contribute meaningful posts that bear the appearance of trying to be solving the game.
Also fair, though I don't think we should give them until the end of time(or just hand wave it off easily if either of them makes, for example, one small post each & nothing else before deadline)....though yes, I agree that we should give them enough time to post before deciding to go after any of them in earnest(if we chose to do so, I mean).
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Carradice: The same can be said even of GR. Why this fixation with Carradice? It seems like you have forgotten who has been pointing a finger at both yogsloth and SPF as early as D1, trying to defend their marks almost single-handedly (completely alone in the case of Flocke). After nailing yogsloth on Day 3 solidly even before that GR posted?? Seriously, why??? This is difficult to understand. If you were not a confirmed IC, this would be enough to make you a suspect. If you have a case, make it at once. Else focus on whoever you think offers the best option to hit scum.
Why pick you? I picked you so that both "neighbors" would be vetted(100% to me, close to it to others) and agent could be able to trust you more.

As for nailing Yog, eh I would've posted the "nailing post" the minute OP started that "day" if i'd been up...ya just got lucky in posting first. ;D

Carradice: This is not saying that anyone should get a free pass. FYI, this player noticed how RW and GR had painted targets on their backs themselves on D1, and noticed that GR was signalling, from D1, his role, which at the moment was thought to be maybe a bluff.
So you DID pick up on that.....I wondered who did. :)

As for why it was so "subtle", I did it that way to make sure fellow town would pick up on it and that if I had to claim that any breadcrumbs I DID leave would be obvious enough when/if I needed to point them out.
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Note to all: I will likely pick one of the current lead wagons and add my vote in a bit(none are close to lynch so all the stragglers have time to make posts before lynch of anyone, I think)....gonna think a bit more and relax a bit at home with some games first, though. :)
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The matrix has become too much for me I'm afraid. Also, thanks to everyone who commented about my trip! :)

ConsulCaesar: I'm safely back home, I will put my thoughts together tomorrow. It was a great trip. :)
Lifthrasil: Nice that it was a great trip, but 'tomorrow' is today by now. So please share your thoughts!
I have this terrible habit of going to the office. ;)

OK,I still see Joe as the most likely to turn scum for the reasons I mentioned in post 994. He hasn't given us any solid reasons to believe him these last couple of days. I would like to hear his claim.

Trent: advocating to "sacrifice" yourself to benefit town is something that, no matter what, is first going to hurt town (if you are town). Not to mention annoying. Leaning towards reverse psychology here.

I frankly don't see enough to go for Pooka when we have two better (or worse) candidates.

I am also a little disappointed that no more confirmed information came from the extremely lucky Night 2 (and to a lesser extent Night 3) we had, but I'll trust that whoever played a role in that prefers to stay hidden for a good reason.

Microfish_1: dus driver if present should prob not claim unless he knows one of the non-lock!town was targeted. then we have to choose to believe him (clearing two town) or not.

random musing: a scum busdriver would be amusingly useless, right?
Could be used to redirect an investigation? If there's a bus driver in this game he won't be scum though, because of what happened N2 with SPF's death.

GameRager: I can somewhat understand Flocke....they were town and had little time to play, and possibly felt some were "picking on them" for not being able to play as much.....although on the other hand one should realize when signing up for such games what "bare minimum posts to keep playing" means & also realize that games such as this need more than 1 post per day to play well.

So yeah it seems they lashed out a bit at the end, but it is somewhat understandable(to me) and I don't fault them too much for it(and I hope they maybe get more free time and maybe think of playing in future games :)).
I do empathise with him, as I felt overwhelmed in the beginning too (and sometimes still). To be honest, the signing up thread did say "one post per 48 hours", which clearly wasn't enough.

Lifthrasil: What worries me is, that Pooka vs. trent might actually be Town on Town and the real scum might just sit back, keep quiet and enjoy the show.
More reason to focus on Joe.

Carradice: IF there is a GF, his role has been apparently be left useless, which would be to our advantage. In any case, if Town only has a three-shot Cop, then the GF role is underwhelming in this particular setup. Is that balanced?
I was actually worried about the limited cop investigations and the absence of a godfather would make it more reasonable. Unless there's another investigative role, which we'd probably know by Day 4.

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To sum up: I'd prefer to lynch Joe, I'd choose Trent as second option.
Not the best day ever...Back from attending a wake today. Replied to Micro too fast, hopefully the post did not come across as too harsh. Would hate that.

Hope everyone is reasonably well and that we can move this forward somehow.

@trent: can relate to the expressed feelings about the game, at this moment. It has been exciting up to the beginning of D4, but people being absent in the weekend has stalled things. It has been all around the people actually participating, without moving forward. On Days 2 and 3, making an effort for writing and analyzying was rewarding because it was possible to change things. On this weekend, it seems like everything is frozen, if you get the meaning. All the writing in the last two days does not feel like anything is getting done. If you are very goal-oriented and want to get things done, not moving forward is a killer.

Lifthrasil: What worries me is, that Pooka vs. trent might actually be Town on Town and the real scum might just sit back, keep quiet and enjoy the show.
Totally with you on that.
Carradice: The same can be said even of GR. Why this fixation with Carradice? It seems like you have forgotten who has been pointing a finger at both yogsloth and SPF as early as D1, trying to defend their marks almost single-handedly (completely alone in the case of Flocke). After nailing yogsloth on Day 3 solidly even before that GR posted?? Seriously, why??? This is difficult to understand. If you were not a confirmed IC, this would be enough to make you a suspect. If you have a case, make it at once. Else focus on whoever you think offers the best option to hit scum.
GameRager: Why pick you? I picked you so that both "neighbors" would be vetted(100% to me, close to it to others) and agent could be able to trust you more.
Noooo.... Completely fine with you atm, GR. The post was addressed to Micro, and his fixation on mentioning just Carradice by name when considering people to be kept under suspicion (but not Lift, GR, Agent...). You (GR) were mentioned as an example of how trust and suspicion can be held in degrees and managed, both for organizing one's thoughts and for making the conversation easier to follow. Even on Day 3, there was room for wondering, what if GR is really scum as yogsloth has sacrificed himself..... are we sure the epic cop is Town.... etc But that was kept without being shared as it was possible but did not seem probable. Then, Night 3 made that even less probable. Something like that with Agent. Even with Lift, there is only his play line after him, but, not thinking him to be the most probable scum, there is no need to ask him whether he is the GF in every other post. At least, for now. .That is keeping the waters cleared.

It is easy to see how many veterans have settled on a detached, short posting pattern (moreso if they are scum). Definitely will be trying that.
ConsulCaesar: I was actually worried about the limited cop investigations and the absence of a godfather would make it more reasonable. Unless there's another investigative role, which we'd probably know by Day 4.
It is better that they do not say anything. Vanilla Town too. This way, they are protecting the rest of the team. Let scum figure out who might have some trick left up their sleeves yet, and who might not. If Town wins, all townies win, not just the ones left alive at the end. So, a joint effort and team work pay off.
ConsulCaesar: I have this terrible habit of going to the office. ;)
Is that code words for smoking the crack? Do you need me to ask for help from cyber jesus? o.0 ;D

ConsulCaesar: I do empathise with him, as I felt overwhelmed in the beginning too (and sometimes still). To be honest, the signing up thread did say "one post per 48 hours", which clearly wasn't enough.
To be clear, I wasn't saying you weren't doing so...I was just saying I tried to give Flocke leeway due to his IRL and him being new.

As for posting: IIRC it says(and is usually stated in most signup threads) that that's the MINIMUM amount of posts a player must make to not get modkilled.....one could then infer, with a bit of reasoning, that one likely needs to post more in such games.

As such, in the future(even if I choose not to play a game) I might try to make sure any newcomers know what they're getting into when they sign up(in a nice way, though, so as not to scare them off needlessly). :)

ConsulCaesar: I was actually worried about the limited cop investigations and the absence of a godfather would make it more reasonable. Unless there's another investigative role, which we'd probably know by Day 4.
Tbh i'd rather we have another protective role rather than another investigator at this point, to protect locked/near locked town.

ConsulCaesar: To sum up: I'd prefer to lynch Joe, I'd choose Trent as second option.
Then feel free to make a vote so we can then see how to proceed. :)
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Carradice: Not the best day ever...Back from attending a wake today.
You have my sympathies.

Aside: A wake? Was there food served, then, like at some such events? Just curious.

As for wakes, a joke if I may: My favorite ones are pics related(attachments to this post) :D

(@OP: Above is NOT a vote)

Carradice: Hope everyone is reasonably well and that we can move this forward somehow.

It has been all around the people actually participating, without moving forward.

On this weekend, it seems like everything is frozen, if you get the meaning. All the writing in the last two days does not feel like anything is getting done. If you are very goal-oriented and want to get things done, not moving forward is a killer.
Um, you were the one yo suggest we wait a bit for the others to post....that's partially why I didn't vote yet and likely why some others who are here aren't doing so. ;)
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Carradice: Noooo.... Completely fine with you atm, GR. The post was addressed to Micro, and his fixation on mentioning just Carradice by name when considering people to be kept under suspicion (but not Lift, GR, Agent...).
I got that it was to Micro...I just like answering other bits of replies that might not be to me if they seem worth replying to for one reason or another. :)

Carradice: Even on Day 3, there was room for wondering, what if GR is really scum as yogsloth has sacrificed himself..... are we sure the epic cop is Town.... etc But that was kept without being shared as it was possible but did not seem probable.
To be fair(this is just me musing again), if I was scum I likely wouldn't throw another scum under the bus, so to speak.....i'd let them do so to me as I am usually not good at winning as scum.

Carradice: Then, Night 3 made that even less probable. Something like that with Agent. Even with Lift, there is only his play line after him, but, not thinking him to be the most probable scum, there is no need to ask him whether he is the GF in every other post. At least, for now. .That is keeping the waters cleared.
The reason why a town would ask YOU(rather than others)if you were GF, IMO, is because I "vetted" you via investigation and you are around the only one that is neither OP cleared(Micro) or improbable to be GF(Agent-due to him having the neighborizer/neighborizing ability).

Carradice: It is better that they do not say anything. Vanilla Town too. This way, they are protecting the rest of the team. Let scum figure out who might have some trick left up their sleeves yet, and who might not. If Town wins, all townies win, not just the ones left alive at the end. So, a joint effort and team work pay off.
Imo if there is such a player and they find the last scum(as I think there is only 1 more) then imo they should let us know on the next "day", that way we can very likely win the game.
GameRager: Um, you were the one yo suggest we wait a bit for the others to post....that's partially why I didn't vote yet and likely why some others who are here aren't doing so. ;)
Yes, because of what most of us agree... we might be watching town vs town, with Scum3 not posting... But by tomorrow, everyone ought to have posted something.

GameRager: As for wakes, a joke if I may: My favorite ones are pics related(attachments to this post) :D

Um, you were the one yo suggest we wait a bit for the others to post....that's partially why I didn't vote yet and likely why some others who are here aren't doing so. ;)
Heh, you forgot the obvious! :-)
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Carradice: Heh, you forgot the obvious! :-)
Nice....didn't know about that one(or if I did then I forgot due to bad memory IRL). :)
Well seeing as how I’ve gotten most everything wrong so far this game and Carradice makes a convincing argument I’m going to switch my vote.

Unvote Pooka
Vote Joe

I realize this makes me look even scummier with how I had Joe in my I don’t want to vote category, but at this point I’m not sure I even know how to play this game anymore with my reads so eh whatever.
The more I think about it, the more I really want an answer to why Joe panicked in the way he did after Yogs outed himself as Scum.