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joppo: Man you had to come and vote me hadn't you? Why couldn't it be Agent coming to vote Lift instead?
Heh. I knew holding back my investigation immunity shots would have came in handy.

But mostly you can blame Lift. By then I saw nobody switching votes to his way, and with you being just as viable, I decided to take the risk (a very huge risk considering what Lift is capable of) and trust him for a second.

High risk, high reward.
PookaMustard: Heh. I knew holding back my investigation immunity shots would have came in handy.
You (and everyone else, though you in particular) had a chance of ending it D4.

Your PM mentions that your ability is self-target. Yet when joppo claimed he investigated you N3, he said you targeted no one. Had he really done that, he would have received a result that you targeted yourself.

By the way, the Innocent Child was made D4 and Miller got 1-shot at being Copped Town in order to make those roles more interesting for the player. I remember flub being D1 innocent child; the role is boring. Also for Miller, the best strategy is either claim and soak the policy lynch early on, or risk screwing Town. I thought the added 1-shot gives him more inetersting strategies.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by ZFR
joppo: Speaking of which, I am impressed with Carradice. I think he performed wonderfully for someone who never played before. I hope I can play in the same faction with you in a future game, mate.
Yes, Carradice was definitely the best player for Town. Made every shot count, did very good analysis (though I'm not a fan of the charts), and even made use of the normally worthless Neighbour chat.

You did a great job holding as long as you could, almost making it to D7.

It's easy for me to say, but I think on D6 saying you were blocked was better than saying you followed agent. Even saying you followed Lift would have been a good gambit seeing how no kill happened. Though who knows.
Regarding your Tracker claim, you could have left the number of shots left vague on purpose (like Joe did) which is something Town do (then on later days you could see how it goes and either claim you tracked someone or claim you were limited shot). Even after claiming full Tracker on D4, on D5 you could have said that you're out of shots but you didn't mention it earlier to soad the NK.
But regardless, it was a tough position to be in.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by ZFR
Finally: discussing flavour. o.O

I made it clear that anything game related was clearly stated in bold. Yet you spent days discussing whether Gryffindor was the only house.
Also, the names were not random but this was never meant to be a "guess the Harry Potter character" game. Not when I wrote that HP knowledge is not important.
I picked a name or two because I thought they'd suit the flavour (Neville and Cedric come to mind) but for the rest, I just put the name and made the story fit the role. Not the other way round. If I needed a laser beam pumpkin I would role I would have included that role and then found a name to suit it.

Lift, I'm disappointed. You in particular having taken part in 3 of my games should have known better. And you ended up suspecting Joe for all the wrong reasons (lack of feedback). I specifically did mention that feedback is just fluff in the OP (I mentioned NK feedback but I assumed it's obvious it extends to all feedback as well).
I know other mods do it differently, but for me feedback is just extra flavour. I'll either tell you explicitly you were blocked, or not say it at all; I won't be including vague hints in flavour.
I mean you asked me about your vanilla feedback on N1 and I told you it's just fluff. Yet you blamed Joe...

And the best part, I specifically said you can ask if something is fluff or not. So if anyone has asked me about Dumbledore's speech I would have answered that it's not game related and put all speculation to rest...
Post edited March 15, 2020 by ZFR
Phew, had to leave with just a quick congratulations earlier. Thanks for the entertaining game ZFR, I don't think it was particularly unbalanced. Certainly nothing like the Joegtrial black ops squad at least. ;)
yogsloth: One single-shot role cop that deliberately returned incomplete results. I actually used my shot on GameRager night one, but only got "Cho Chang, Cop" as a result, nothing else.
Role cops get roles, not modifiers. 3-shot and Epic are modifiers.

yogsloth: You can read scum chat to see the evolution of thought on assuming that with such a woefully, absurdly underpowered mafia team we didn't possibly think Town could have cop shot after cop shot after cop shot to work with.
Speak for yourself, I didn't believe the 1-shot idea at the time. I should have been more assertive about that, though it wouldn't have made a difference unless I'd gone to do the kill instead, seeing as you were blocked.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by SirPrimalform
yogsloth: ...
ZFR: For comparison, an example C9++ setup:

Full Cop
D1 Innocent Child
Full Doctor/Blocker


Goon, Goon, Blocker, SK

TTTTCCMD (or B in place of D for a Blocker)

That's with Mafia having normal Night Chat only with no post-death chat.

My setup had the Cop nerfed to 3-shot, Doctor/Blocker nerfed to 3-shot and made compulsive, Innocent Child moved to D4.
To that added Bodyguard (again, compulsive can't target same player twice), which you yourselves called a "studpid role" and a neighbourizer, another weak role.
And a Miller.

The Mafia Blocker was replaced by 1-shot role cop and a tracker.
And were given total chat.

Town roles were underpowered too. JOAT had to use his shots in first three nights, when he still has no good idea who is who, and his Blocker could be a two edged sword. Bodyguard doesn't help numbers since he dies too, he only can be useful later, but even then since he's compulsive, he can only help if he hadn't protected that person early nights already.

And Town had to play those roles with a 71% presence (versus usual 75%) against two scum factions with an average 1.5 NKs per night.

yogsloth: Plus a SK blasting away mafia as well.
ZFR: Yes, the SK was put there to specifically blast Mafia only.

yogsloth: Town immediately knew it was a lie, as every town role was limited shot
ZFR: Nope. Bodyguard wasn't limited shot either.

yogsloth: Ponder this - we no-lynched D1, killed a townie N1, lynched a townie D2, and by N2 mafia team had been mathematically eliminated.
ZFR: Maybe if you weren't so scummy as to draw Blocker and Cop shots?

Ponder this, at the beginning of N2, when you still had all three players left and were already going "boo hoo unbalanced", the only 2 unaccounted for Town shots left were one Blocker and one Stopper. Compulsive. And a Miller.
Carradice simply used both shots perfectly, blocking and stopping a kill, because of the way you acted. Without that, Town would be at D4 with just an IC and essentially all vanillas.
On top of that SK happened to kill you. Nothing you could do about that. But it's a 3-faction game free for all. Last trent's game for example it was also possible that Cop SK kills a scum, and Cop investigates the other one. Unbalanced?

yogsloth: This was unquestionably the most unbalanced game not only that I've ever played, but that I have ever even heard of.
Bodyguard is, for all intents and purposes, single use. Even if they can act multiple nights. ;)
Major Congrats to the scum team for their very good game IMO. I jumped into scumchat very briefly just now and have to say that I really wasn't playing as well as some gave me credit during the game for playing.

In fact, I was going to apologize for not making an extensive case on Lift. I made this long breadcrumby post about how the IC is useful to the extent that the player is playing well, and then I just kinda coasted post-confirmation. Friday I woke up and was thinking all "I really really need to ISO Lift and do extensive analysis to prove he was scum and convince others to my POV; it is my responsibility after all." and then I failed to do it. Last night I could have done it but I played Bad North for 2 hours instead. Today I overslept by 4 hours and was trying to catch up until not too long ago when I look and the game is over. My first thought upon seeing that the game was over was that we had mislunched Joppo and scum had won (or tied and thus winning) the game. Somehow.

So, as my play was really sloppy post-confirmation, I do apologize. I really thought Lift was scum and didn't pursue it as extensively as I should have.

I guess I now see how my 1054(?) is kinda scummy (the "[insert player]...[insert other player]...[insert name of first player]" post).
Kudos to SPF for explaining in scumchat.

GG to every single one of you. I really mean it.
The only reason I recall thinking Yogs as scummy as he happened to be was because I knew I was an IC; if I had been vanilla or any other town role watching the exchange he would have convinced me to follow his lead. Major kudos to Yogs for making me sweat and work to try and stay in the game. It definitely made it more fun (looking back). At the time I was scared out of my socks. :D

I still don't see why folk thought SPF was scummy, but no matter. I kinda got to the point where I thought I knew scum was one or two of the final four and was about to coin-flip for lack of time/energy. I figured lift as scum because of his swing in aggressiveness + he admitted that as scum he would be trying to lead the wagons and casting blame.

Joppo's one mistake lay in his not claiming a limited tracker, but he still read townie enough I didn't think he was scum. Although, I did have this niggling doubt remembering how decisive he was in calling in the last SH game, but I put it down to a different game, or playing vs merely watching.
Also, if he had claimed to be blocked or otherwise no result last night that would have been better and confirmed him as town for me. All in all an exceptional run for a first-time-in-a-long-time player.

Carradice played an outstanding game, especially for his first time. I would not have done so well with his role. I still don't get all of his reasonings behind his analysis, but that is all right.

I don't understand why Pooka didn't announce his immunity-thing and what it meant for the game the same day he claimed. Shrug. Maybe I am pocket-shy when it comes to Pooka in-game, but the only reason I halfway believed him was for balance.

I feel badly about Flocke's early departure from this game. I thought he picked up on something several times. I am interested in knowing what he and RW saw but didn't say, as well as who RW protected.

The only thing that gave town the early lead IMO was the charts. Then, we managed to squander our lead and almost hand the win over to scum on a platter. I honestly despaired of winning when we removed Trentonlf from play. My initial thought was regret and remorse over not voting Lift instead. I would have followed policy and removed Pooka on principle instead of w/e we did that day (I forget what happened on what day).

@Lift, the only time I've previously played with town!you was in Captain Sapphire (57). If you hadn't stated that SKs are usually scum, I would have been hunting for 2 scum toDay.

As always when it is his turn to host, thank you to ZFR for running this game! It was a lot of fun, and I loved the player interactions.

more thoughts later.

On March 3, thinking of Joe becoming lock!town due to removing SPF (as it turned out--hah! :D ), I mused to ZFR:
I don't suppose the scum would remove one of their own players (A*) to give another scummate (B**) a good story to tell in order make him (B) lock-town, now would they?!?!
A* = SPF
B** = Joe.

Not sure why Carradice didn't see the conflict in actions or why he townread lift.

PPS: Remembering 57's naive townie, I tried an action one of the nights, but nothing happened.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by Microfish_1
PPPS: also, I kinda bluffed several times, turning gut feelings into theory and then trying to find facts to fit those theories if i had no better idea.

it kept me alive d1. my airtight alibi.... nothing more than breadcrumbs and i escaped. :(

sadly, we all kinda stopped talking the last Day and kinda lurked waiting to see who would blink first.

the joking was especially quite fun, and i tried to make my posts not too awfully dry and boring for a observer to read. apologies if they were.

@FlockeSchnee: Everything I said to you in the post that I also used as a breadcrumb was still 100% accurate, if stilted due to being used as a breadcrumb. I almost said it all without breadcrumbing anything, and was looking at how to say it plus a breadcrumby post. however, I couldn't think of anything else to say to breadcrumb with, so I went back to my first plan.

@Everyone: it was a lot of fun playing with you and I really and sincerely do hope to play with you again before too long. Also, I look forward to chatting with you outside of games as well.


For the record and for funzies, I think I still would have asked 226 if I was vanilla. Maybe. If it had occurred to me to do so. Reading RW in observer, however, I'm not so sure if I would have thought of it. When i made the post I truly thought it was innocent or at least not tooooo bad. Certainly I did not think it was as scummy or rolefisching as people thought it was.


Also, I tried to speak somewhat British-y early on, due to ZFR's informative lecture on Oxford and the Proper British Spellings of wourds and insisting on putting a "u" after every "o." Houwever, I sououn gave up on this due to fourgetting.
Sourry [changes accents] aboot thet thar pure happenstance.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by Microfish_1

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPS: My thought on names matching PRs was as much I think due to previous experience in GOG mafia (specifially the flap about names in #57 revealing sides/powers) plus wondering about this game. I'm not sure I ever saw the connection between my name and role as much as others did or others thought I did.
and i wasn't apologizing because i was scum, i was apologizing because i went with the flow and had no better idea at the time. I knew it was probably bad play, but thought any info on who was driving various wagons was better than no info at all.

My deepest apologies and I do hope that my actions didn't drive you away from this game or us. :-(
JoeSapphire: I'm Fred & George Weasely, Gryffindor, Town Jack-Of-All-Trades.
Fred & George Weasely.
Siblings, you might say.
Town Siblings.

And all of you once again believed it. :D

/me high-fives his big bro

Seriously though, good game all around.

@Carradice: I'm in awe of your reads. Not a fan of the tables, though, it makes the game feel too mechanical (a bit like the "meta" play in SH which was discussed in the previous game), but I think you can do just as well without them.

@Flocke: I hope you'll still look in and the experience you had didn't sour you too much on giving mafia another try. The attention to detail you've shown can be an extremely valuable skill when playing mafia (on either side). You need to have some experience with playing to use it effectively and figure out what's significant and what isn't, so hopefully you'll stick around until you have that.

@Joppo: Impressive performance! You had me doubting until the end.

@yogs: sadface that you experienced the game like that.

Thanks to ZFR for hosting! I like the way you tried to make roles more interesting to play!
Nice game! Thank you for running it, zfr! I don't think that it was unbalanced. It just was swingy, like all games with SK are.

@Joppo: impressive game in your part! You made me doubt my read on you and your deflection towards me was very creative!

@Carradice: great selection of targets!

@Joe (and others): see! I wasn't scum! I can be Town too ;-)
PookaMustard: Thanks for the game, ZFR, and all players! I will read everything else about the game when I get free.
If you turn your eyes to the scum chat make sure to have a LARGE mug of coffee handy, and a full day or so. ;)


joppo: Congratulations, townies. @GR I was looking forward to taking that random champagne bottle from you, but oh well, not this time.
And Congrats to you for mostly "flying" (get it.....since it's Harry Potter :D) under my radar for most if not all of the game.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by GameRager
@ZFR - thanks for running!

@Everyone else - I won't apologies for all of my antics at the beginning of the game, but I will apologize for going on a bit too long with them. I also have to say that I'm burning out on mafia. I'll be taking a break for a while now that this game is over.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by agentcarr16
agentcarr16: @ZFR - thanks for running!

@Everyone else - I won't apologies for all of my antics at the beginning of the game, but I will apologize for going on a bit too with them. I also have to say that I'm burning out on mafia. I'll be taking a break for a while now that this game is over.
Yes. I over- reacted to your initial joke. Sorry for that. Your second joke claim was cheesy enough to be recognizable as bad joke, but the Victor Krum joke went too far and convinced me that you are some kind of anti- town.