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Bookwyrm627: I don't see any way that JMich could be almost certain Sage is town AND JMich did not get anything useful to report with his use of his role. If "Sage is town" didn't stem from his role, then he should be able to lay out the case that Sage is town based on her posts.
You mean it's not possible to give information that a town role would get, which would correspond with information I got while I had a role? Or is it that you're asking "Hey guys, what's the thing town roles get that the rest of us do not", which is either stupid or scummy, and I do not think you're stupid?

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Bookwyrm627: Because I ask questions and put together clues.
Then you should also be able to explain said clues. What makes you think trentonlf had a power since D1 and didn't get it at the end of N1?

P.S. Current discussion is making me reluctant to go back and answer questions asked towards me previously, though I still might do it. Feel free to ask them again.
P.P.S. Doctor. As I said, no info.
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Bookwyrm627: I don't see any way that JMich could be almost certain Sage is town AND JMich did not get anything useful to report with his use of his role. If "Sage is town" didn't stem from his role, then he should be able to lay out the case that Sage is town based on her posts.
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JMich: You mean it's not possible to give information that a town role would get, which would correspond with information I got while I had a role? Or is it that you're asking "Hey guys, what's the thing town roles get that the rest of us do not", which is either stupid or scummy, and I do not think you're stupid?

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Bookwyrm627: Because I ask questions and put together clues.
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JMich: Then you should also be able to explain said clues. What makes you think trentonlf had a power since D1 and didn't get it at the end of N1?

P.S. Current discussion is making me reluctant to go back and answer questions asked towards me previously, though I still might do it. Feel free to ask them again.
P.P.S. Doctor. As I said, no info.
Because Trent was dead by the end of Night 1 and you knew through the entirety of Day 1 what role you had.

What made you trust Sage so much?
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cristigale: snip
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RWarehall: There is nothing fabricated here.
Please answer my questions about your specific statements. Otherwise, I assume you are purposefully dodging them.

This is what I call a "complete fabrication". How is not?? Prove that I said this or anything close to this:

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RWarehall: I've seen posts like #231 before. Look busy, look townly. Also conveniently leaving out the possibility Drealmer was scum. And the tin foil hat conspiracy theory that I planned the whole thing out to create that fast mislynch...
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cristigale: WTH? Where did I say anything like that??
Also please address this:

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RWarehall: Then post 231, the same issue again ignoring the possibility the Drealmer might be scum. I very WIFOMy list of "all" scum pairs (note the lack of Drealmer possibly being scum. And again a directed attack based on some very arbitrary parameters.
@Rwarehall - Where was the first "directed attack"? I don't see it mentioned. And what are the " very arbitrary parameters"?

And this:

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RWarehall: Even Cristi's play I might lean a little towny in other games, but those two posts and just the general directed kamakase attacks on players all game are the scummiest things I see in the game.
@RWarehall - So, I assume that you consider my vote on Bookwyrm a "kamakase attack". Where else have I done this? What other player(s)? All game??


If you put it out there, you should be able to back it up.
EBWOP - quote tags are missing

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cristigale: snip
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RWarehall: There is nothing fabricated here.
Please answer my questions about your specific statements. Otherwise, I assume you are purposefully dodging them.


This is what I call a "complete fabrication". How is not?? Prove that I said this or anything close to this:

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RWarehall: I've seen posts like #231 before. Look busy, look townly. Also conveniently leaving out the possibility Drealmer was scum. And the tin foil hat conspiracy theory that I planned the whole thing out to create that fast mislynch...
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cristigale: WTH? Where did I say anything like that??
Also please address this:

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RWarehall: Then post 231, the same issue again ignoring the possibility the Drealmer might be scum. I very WIFOMy list of "all" scum pairs (note the lack of Drealmer possibly being scum. And again a directed attack based on some very arbitrary parameters.
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cristigale: @Rwarehall - Where was the first "directed attack"? I don't see it mentioned. And what are the " very arbitrary parameters"?
And this:

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RWarehall: Even Cristi's play I might lean a little towny in other games, but those two posts and just the general directed kamakase attacks on players all game are the scummiest things I see in the game.
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cristigale: @RWarehall - So, I assume that you consider my vote on Bookwyrm a "kamakase attack". Where else have I done this? What other player(s)? All game??
If you put it out there, you should be able to back it up.
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JMich: P.S. Current discussion is making me reluctant to go back and answer questions asked towards me previously, though I still might do it. Feel free to ask them again.
@JMich - So far you have said Sage is likely town and Bookwyrm is likely scum. Are those reads current? What are your reads on the rest of us?
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Bookwyrm627: Because Trent was dead by the end of Night 1 and you knew through the entirety of Day 1 what role you had.
And I also understood that I'd end N1 without a role. But you're saying the role would switch at the beginning of D2 and not during N1, thus trent must have had the role all day and not manage to pass it on.
What does my role have to do with trent's btw?

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Bookwyrm627: What made you trust Sage so much?
Verification of getting the PM, and similar thought process to the one RW explained. Still some doubts of whether it is actually a townie or a scum seeking town approval, but willing to chance it atm.

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cristigale: @JMich - So far you have said Sage is likely town and Bookwyrm is likely scum. Are those reads current?
Yes.
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cristigale: What are your reads on the rest of us?
Undecided. RW I have leaning town, though most likely bias on my part, you as leaning scum, mostly due to voting correlation with wyrm and RW's thoughts, which can be meaningless (either one). No current thoughts on Gamma, pending an isolation read of course.
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RWarehall: snip
I do not know drealmer’s alignment. He could be scum. He could be town. He could be an NS. I don’t know anything about drealmer for certain.

I think he was likely town. When he was involved, it felt like town dreamer. I don’t buy the argument that it was scum-drealmer because town-drealmer should have been more involved. Scum-drealmer is just as involved, if not more so, than town-drealmer. Drealmer is never at a loss for word, regardless of alignment. He doesn’t avoid games because he is scum. If anything, he is more involved as scum.

I’ve explained why it is important not to discount the very likely possibility that there are two scum remaining. That’s what I think is the MOST LIKELY SCENARIO. If that is not the case, then great! That would actually make my read on RWarehall clearer. I wouldn’t be wondering who is partner is.

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RWarehall: I don't care that you now point to a completely unrelated post and claim how "you have discussed Drealmer". That is meaningless. And for you to call my case "fabricated" and continue to claim how I'm ignoring some unreleated post, makes you rather scummy in my book.
The only time I used the word “fabricated” was about your one quote. I do, in increasing measure, believe your case is fabricated, but that is not what I said. Also, you did ignore the context of the post, which is mentioned again in the next comment.

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RWarehall: How can you be sure sure, as uninformed town, that Drealmer was town too? You can't. But you sure act like ignoring that option except for a 3 word throw off that doesn't even mention Drealmer by name is just completely natural in your so-called pursuit of the scum team.
Here’s what I said: "assuming a 2 player scum team still remains"
Again, I stated my position, why would I need to mention drealmer by name?

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RWarehall: And then the way you want everyone else to "weigh in" against me based on your flimsy analysis?
I get the impression from this that RWarehall thinks post 231 was all about him. It wasn’t. I didn’t ask everyone to weigh in just about RWarehall. The post was about who I thought made sense as scum. He was one of four people mentioned. And one of three people who made my final list. Interesting reaction.

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RWarehall: Now with Bookwyrm joining your vote on thin air as he has a temper tantrum over me not joining his ill-advised JMich crusade and as he pushes for townies to reveal more about their roles than they feel is useful, it opens up room for Bookwyrm as your partner and Day 1 was just busing.
@RWarehall - If someone else joins your wagon, will they also now be my potential partner?


And no, I’m not worried that Bookwyrm put you as L-2. Why should I be worried when you seem the most likely scum?

Now Bookwyrm at this point is another matter. I leaned him hard scum on D1. I find it unlikely that two of you are partners. If I remember, Gamma said he wouldn't be around, I don't remember until when. I like Bookwyrm's suggestion to take a closer look at Gamma.
@Sage - What is your view on the clash between RWarehall and me? Is one of us scum? Town v. town? I am over-reacting?

Do you still feel the same about your vote on Bookwyrm?

What do you think is our present game state? How many scum? A NS?



For the game in general - Gamma's post said he would be gone until Thursday.
I am just getting on now after a long day, I am going to catch up while I make dinner.
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Sage103082: I am just getting on now after a long day, I am going to catch up while I make dinner.
Please forgive me for pressuring you, but be advised that we're in metaphorical overtime for this Day. Gamma is still MIA, but there should be plenty of content from others.
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cristigale: @Bookwyrm - Is this the same feeling from last game? Do you see a difference?
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Bookwyrm627: It does feel very similar. Last game RW tried to discredit me without actually dealing with my arguments. Likewise, in this game he isn't taking the open-ended questions I've offered to try and build an actual argument against my arguments.

What cases he has laid out has generally been (in my mind, at least) based on scant and poor evidence in this game, which is NOT what I expect from a town RW. I expect town RW to be proactive about scum hunting.
Im not sure I am to keen on this. How many games have been played and how many games can you take examples from to make it work to the way you want it to. Can you link to a game where you have a different feel and RW is town?

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RWarehall: Even Cristi's play I might lean a little towny in other games, but those two posts and just the general directed kamakase attacks on players all game are the scummiest things I see in the game.
What makes this game different from another game where you might find her play towny?

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Sage103082: Yes, it is similar but yet different. It is not a direct copy of the last stalker game. Somethings have changed.
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Bookwyrm627: Do you remember how all the powers worked, or just yours?
Yes. I remember

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Bookwyrm627: And on the subject of neutrals: At this point, I don't think we have any 3rd parties alive. The only way town wins (short of scum trying to lose) if a 3rd party is currently alive is if Drealmer was scum. So I'm discarding 2S/1N as a lost cause and not worth considering. We can still win a 2S, and 1S is a better version of 2S. Therefore, I'm playing under the assumption we have 2S left. If a townie flips and game doesn't end during the Night, then we can reasonably assume 1S left.
So you are discounting the possibility that drealmer was scum and that there is a chance we have a NS? Isn't that being a little risky. And let alone a little off that you are so meh about we can lose one more. Easy for you to say if the one lost is not on your team.

@bookwyrm - you are after Jmich for his lack of contrubuting to the game. Thoughts on Gamma?

@cristi - I think it is scum/town. I do not like that RW has completely ignored your questions and your asking for him to show you where things he sees are. I feel he is trying to make something big out of nothing. I personally didnt see anything scummy about the two posts he pointed too. I thought it was well thought out and trying to figure things out.

I still find bookwyrm off. but he is not number one on my list.

Unvote Bookwyrm



I think we really need to come together as a team and work together if we are going to win. The more we talk and hunt and try to get everyone talking the better it is. As for my opinion scum/ns is that we have 2 scum and I am not ignoring drealmer as possibility. I think taking him away and giving him a firm town is way to risky and can come back to bite us. I also think there is a NS. Just a gut feeling more then anything specific and like I said best to figure we have one then to ignore the possibility and get burned from it.
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Sage103082: Im not sure I am to keen on this. How many games have been played and how many games can you take examples from to make it work to the way you want it to. Can you link to a game where you have a different feel and RW is town?
I don't remember the last time I played with RW where we were both town, and I don't have the RL time atm to go hunting for possible games. Name one where we were both town, and I'll tell you what I remember.

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Sage103082: So you are discounting the possibility that drealmer was scum and that there is a chance we have a NS? Isn't that being a little risky. And let alone a little off that you are so meh about we can lose one more. Easy for you to say if the one lost is not on your team.
That is NOT what I said. I'm looking at the possible alignments alive in the game right now. Whatever Drealmer's alignment was, he isn't currently alive. I don't have any particular read from his D1 play. If he was scum, then there is probably only one scum alive.

I said that I'm discarding 2S/1N as a lost game for town (we're already too far behind), and that I'm assuming 2S because it is like 1S except worse. Either way, we're aiming for scum today.

While RW apparently decided to look for PM confirmation based on the town PM change, I took the original wording as a possible slip that there isn't a non-hostile 3rd party. The lack of a kill last night sort of implies there isn't an SK either, but we have a doctor claim that might have possibly offset that particular kill. Be nice to know who JMich considered worthy of protection, but I'm tired of trying to drag things out of him; someone else can take a turn.

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Sage103082: @bookwyrm - you are after Jmich for his lack of contrubuting to the game. Thoughts on Gamma?
I've had Gamma in a similar boat for most of the game. He never showed up today, which does NOT sit well with me. I've got a niggling feeling that he might be idiot town (nothing personal, and not a comment on him as a person); I overrode it after rereading Meda, which did not end well. I'm hoping my instincts are on target this time too.
I find it rather hypocritical that both Bookwyrm and Cristi seem to make a big deal about leaving Gamma at L-2 and it's implications and yet cavalierly are doing the very same thing.

If you really were worried about town losing to a quite hammer, then you should definitely be worried now. I am town, and for you to leave me in this position is foolish by your own thinking.

What it really tells me is that it had nothing to do with leaving Gamma at L-2 but a sideways attempt to make a case against me for your mislynch.

The problem with #230 and #231 are how Cristi "conveniently" used two different trains of thought and pointed both of them at me. Both by making stretched assumptions. So how Cristi is trying to prop up her day 1 Drealmer is town read. That's it? Post frequency on day 1? Yup obviTown...that's why Cristi can go on a long rant narrowing down the only scum candidates to her intended selections.

The logic is bad, she had an aim in mind, she has one now and its to garner a mislynch.

But I'd like to point you specifically to Bookwyrm's #299 and this quote...
"I think you haven't had a role all game. How's that for a breadcrumb? :P"

If anyone can tell me a valid TOWN reason for talking about what you think of whether I have a role now or not, speak up. You are either the dumbest town on record or you are scum signalling your buddy because you are not sure you will survive the night.

No, I don't have a role, but I did try to confuse scum into targeting me but stating a few times how "I did not receive a PM at the beginning of night like JMich did" hoping that scum might read something more into the qualification that I had received one at some point. You know, playing vanilla the right way, not lying, not getting lynched for a crazy play but enticing scum to think about taking you out at night.
If you are town, you did such a great job messing up my play. (sarcasm). I really cannot believe you can play this bad as town, thus you must not be...

Unvote Cristi
Vote Bookwyrm
Scratch that
Unvote Bookwyrm
Vote Cristi

I don't think I want to completely rule out Sage just yet, even though I'm town-reading her. Cristi is the center of the wheel. I know she has to be scum. Could be she jumped in to take pressure off Gamma as well.

As to Cristi, see how she is trying to attack me, attack the messenger, rather than the message.

Just look at 230. She opens up and questions me on my question to Gamma. Is it not a good idea to get clarification? Then jumps from there to explain in her mind how the only possible result is I'm scum because Gamma wasn't quick lynched? Interesting how Sage is coming out claiming to see nothing wrong with the post at all. You don't see how leading she is with her logic as if the result is leading the investigation? You don't see the jump in logic going from me questioning Gamma to attacking me for daring to place a 2nd vote? If that's good logic to you, you need to re-evaluate.

How about the really obvious fact that the two scum (if there are two scum) would have to put their necks on the line to do it, and then pray your NK wasn't blocked lest we lynch you one after one. And assuming they don't have daychat and just nightchat, they'd need to make sure they were both actually online and not surfing the rest of the forum. On top of that the reason L-2 isn't a threat is that we cannot actually be at a true MyLo with the possibility of town having a NK block. We do not necessarily lose on a lynch even in the worst case scenario of 2 scum left. That is why there is no risk at L-2. Cristi's case is based on a junk premise. But she doesn't care about that. What she cares about is creating enough doubt to get her mislynch.

And then #231 carries on based on this terrible premise and by essentially declaring Drealmer "ObviTown" on a day 1 read. The entire case is flimsy, but she is doing a good job bringing up JMich's name into the discussion to cast shade on him as well. It's clear she is doing her best to create doubt. I know I'm town, and all signs have pointed me to this being town JMich. So both are mislynchs. I'm not surprised she chose us, because we are likely the low-hanging fruit for a mislynch. JMich doesn't post much and I was mostly absent day 1.
I was told to weigh in
Book Wyrm do you scum read me? RW is very likely Town if I am, which I am fmpov. Why back off as scum without me?
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GammaEmerald: I was told to weigh in
Book Wyrm do you scum read me? RW is very likely Town if I am, which I am fmpov. Why back off as scum without me?
Now I am curious...what do you think makes your alignment related to mine or visa versa?