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Sage103082: What makes this game different from another game where you might find her play towny?
She seems a lot more aggressive than usual over rather trivial things. Town Cristi, I don't see riding all over Bookwyrm for such trivialities like the cultist and NS talk. Town Cristi would notice that not all of it originated with Bookwyrm. And talking of that whole push, I got a sense that she had some sort of angle to getting involved. I can't pin it down exactly, maybe defending someone, maybe trying to establish some early shade. I sense some sort of game to it.

She seems more pokey and stabby than town Cristi. She's jumping in head-first and I don't get the same sort of real contemplation I usually see. There is a level of aggressiveness. It feels on a read through that maybe she is struggling a bit making a case knowing what the truth is.

Town Cristi usually self-preserves day 1, staying out of conflicts and just reading. This Cristi is something different. I don't recall the last time she pulled scum, but maybe she's having a hard time playing scum?

As to most of the posts, I almost get the sense the conclusion is driving the posts, not the other way around.

In short, she feels off. And I think town Cristy would be looking more at my motivations and realize that while I was voting and pushing Gamma, I wasn't really pushing that hard for Gamma's lynch exactly, more trying to get enough to read, Instead, she even actually tried to claim my push was serious enough we couldn't be wolf/wolf even though I was pretty hesitant with my vote.
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Bookwyrm627: Be nice to know who JMich considered worthy of protection, but I'm tired of trying to drag things out of him; someone else can take a turn.
What benefit would that give us? All it would say is who I thought of as town at the end of D1, nothing else. So it's similar to asking me at what time did I send my action. Interesting data, no use.
If there is a specific reason you want me to say who I protected, like there being a watcher and/or tracker around who can potentially verify or disprove my claim, feel free to say so. But having yet another PR for town would most likely mean that trent didn't have a D1 power, or that town has more powers than I thought.
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You finally find that bloody cave. And after you have killed the Bloodsucker that lived there, it is even a bit bloodier. But what the hell, it's a cave, it's underground and it should keep you alive in the approaching Emission. The bad thing is, so far in the forest, you won't hear any sirens. So you retreat underground immediately and sit huddled together on some stones, deliberating, whether to kill someone, before the Emission knocks you out. Everyone has someone he suspects, but there is no agreement on who might be that murderer among you. So you talk, holding council, tense with the knowledge that the next Emission isn't far away.
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Vote Count

RWarehall: 2 - cristigale, Bookwyrm
Sage: 1 - Gamma
Bookwyrm: 1 - JMich
cristigale: 1 - RWare


not voting: Sage
RWare is at L-2
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Sage103082: I think we really need to come together as a team and work together if we are going to win. The more we talk and hunt and try to get everyone talking the better it is.
Bold words. Care to try and lead by example?

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Sage103082: I still find bookwyrm off. but he is not number one on my list.
For example, you managed not to indicate who you thought might be more scummy than me in either of your two catch-up posts.

I admit that I kind of expected more content from you once you caught up.

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RWarehall: I find it rather hypocritical that both Bookwyrm and Cristi seem to make a big deal about leaving Gamma at L-2 and it's implications and yet cavalierly are doing the very same thing.
When did I make a big deal about Gamma being left at L-2?

Before you cite 299, that was in direct response to 1) you putting up a fuss about Cristi's argument on Gamma at L-2, and 2) to demonstrate the kind of holes I've been seeing in your logic.

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RWarehall: But I'd like to point you specifically to Bookwyrm's #299 and this quote...
"I think you haven't had a role all game. How's that for a breadcrumb? :P"

If anyone can tell me a valid TOWN reason for talking about what you think of whether I have a role now or not, speak up. You are either the dumbest town on record or you are scum signalling your buddy because you are not sure you will survive the night.
Huh. Do you read my posts, RW? Because the town reason is literally right there, in the line you quoted. Not sure why I'd bother trying to signal my scum buddy if I'm concerned about surviving the night, though. Seems like I'd just talk to my buddy in the night thread.

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RWarehall: As to Cristi, see how she is trying to attack me, attack the messenger, rather than the message.
You know, funny you should say that. Will you be answering Cristi's questions (asked yet again) from post 305?

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GammaEmerald: I was told to weigh in
Book Wyrm do you scum read me? RW is very likely Town if I am, which I am fmpov. Why back off as scum without me?
HA! No. You come back after a multi-day absence, and that's the best you can come up with? Give a little to get a little, Gamma. Good grief.

I'm going to second RW's question from post 316.

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JMich: What benefit would that give us? All it would say is who I thought of as town at the end of D1
That would be the first and best reason. You're not on record with much, which makes seeing inconsistencies in your posting very difficult to impossible, which lets you hide if you're scum. Who would you see as town enough to save, but at risk of being killed, JMich?

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JMich: , nothing else. So it's similar to asking me at what time did I send my action. Interesting data, no use.
You are technical enough to know better. It would tell us who was protected, which would mean that if a 3rd party with a kill did somehow flip up, we'd know that one of the N1 kills was either blocked, overlapped, or withheld. Alternatively, if you protected the victim, we could guess that scum has some sort of Strongman power.

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JMich: If there is a specific reason you want me to say who I protected, like there being a watcher and/or tracker around who can potentially verify or disprove my claim, feel free to say so. But having yet another PR for town would most likely mean that trent didn't have a D1 power, or that town has more powers than I thought.
Interesting thing to say.

Assume for the moment that there is a tracker or watcher. That's one power. Then lets assume you're telling the truth about being a town doctor. That's a second power. Next lets assume Trent had a power on D1. That's three.

Now, lets compare where you said "I don't think there were only 2 town roles" with the part of your quote that I bolded above. You've already guessed that town had more than two powers, and Trent having a D1 power would fit very nicely into that mix without breaking anything.

Your thought process seems rather inconsistent here. How many powers did you think Town had?
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Bookwyrm627: That would be the first and best reason. You're not on record with much, which makes seeing inconsistencies in your posting very difficult to impossible, which lets you hide if you're scum. Who would you see as town enough to save, but at risk of being killed, JMich?
Ah, indeed I have not answered that. I thought I had. Still not going to answer it since it doesn't benefit us in any way.

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Bookwyrm627: You are technical enough to know better. It would tell us who was protected, which would mean that if a 3rd party with a kill did somehow flip up, we'd know that one of the N1 kills was either blocked, overlapped, or withheld. Alternatively, if you protected the victim, we could guess that scum has some sort of Strongman power.
You are also intelligent enough to know that if who I protected had any relevance, I would have said so already. No, the one I protected didn't die, so no reason to think about a strongman. And if a third party flips up, then we deal with that then. But it would also mean up to 2 NKs in a 9 player game, which others have already said that it looks excessive.

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Bookwyrm627: Interesting thing to say.

Assume for the moment that there is a tracker or watcher. That's one power. Then lets assume you're telling the truth about being a town doctor. That's a second power. Next lets assume Trent had a power on D1. That's three.

Now, lets compare where you said "I don't think there were only 2 town roles" with the part of your quote that I bolded above. You've already guessed that town had more than two powers, and Trent having a D1 power would fit very nicely into that mix without breaking anything.

Your thought process seems rather inconsistent here. How many powers did you think Town had?
You're missing Sage. Intentional or not I wonder?
I assume there are 3 town roles. Me and Sage make two of them, and Sage's mention of her role doesn't seem to indicate she can verify or disprove my claim. You pushing so hard makes me wonder if you think there is a watcher and/or tracker at play who could verify my claim, but you also think that trent had a role on D1. So either you're saying that there is a 4th role (me, Sage, trent, unknown who can verify) or that trent didn't have a role on D1.
So no, again, my claiming cannot help us any way. Unless one's fishing of course, in that case it could help quite a bit.
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Sage103082: What makes this game different from another game where you might find her play towny?
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RWarehall: She seems a lot more aggressive than usual over rather trivial things. Town Cristi, I don't see riding all over Bookwyrm for such trivialities like the cultist and NS talk. Town Cristi would notice that not all of it originated with Bookwyrm. And talking of that whole push, I got a sense that she had some sort of angle to getting involved. I can't pin it down exactly, maybe defending someone, maybe trying to establish some early shade. I sense some sort of game to it.

She seems more pokey and stabby than town Cristi. She's jumping in head-first and I don't get the same sort of real contemplation I usually see. There is a level of aggressiveness. It feels on a read through that maybe she is struggling a bit making a case knowing what the truth is.

Town Cristi usually self-preserves day 1, staying out of conflicts and just reading. This Cristi is something different. I don't recall the last time she pulled scum, but maybe she's having a hard time playing scum?

As to most of the posts, I almost get the sense the conclusion is driving the posts, not the other way around.

In short, she feels off. And I think town Cristy would be looking more at my motivations and realize that while I was voting and pushing Gamma, I wasn't really pushing that hard for Gamma's lynch exactly, more trying to get enough to read, Instead, she even actually tried to claim my push was serious enough we couldn't be wolf/wolf even though I was pretty hesitant with my vote.
The last paragraph here actually demonstrates my point fairly well. He was actually trying to get me to post content. I feel scum would just push the lynch through. It's been told to me as "scum don't want their mislynches to defend themselves".
@bookwyrm - I thought it have made my thoughts on Gamma quiet clear. He is my number one scum pick. From his lack of posting to what he actually contributes. Even now he comes back to the game and answers one question from RW about himself and asks a few that dont really get anywhere in his im back post. How is this not hiding in plain sight/ lurking. And he is constantly getting away with it and being ignored by everyone. He says RW gave him the chance to post content. Where is it?? and he claims hes town and knows RW is too? How? and he hasnt answered you yet.

I apologize for not being as active the last two days real life does get in the way as much as I try to keep my time for the game.

After reading the posts today and rw pointing out my comment on I wasnt seeing it made me go back again.

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cristigale: Gamma is at L-2 and still alive. That suggest to me that either Gamma or one of the players on his wagon are scum. Sage is the only player that I am fairly confident is town. Which leaves Gamma or RWarehall. I find it unlikely that RWarehall busing his buddy in this case. Which leaves the remaining part of the scum team in JMich/Bookwyrm.
@cristi- You say that one of the players on the wagon are scum. You discount RW and me But then ignore Gamma? and go to remaining scum team as Jmich/bookwyrm. Why? Why ignore Gamma all together?
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JMich: Still not going to answer it since it doesn't benefit us in any way.
I've already outlined several reasons I think it is relevant. But so be it. I can't force you to answer, and no one else seems to care.

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JMich: And if a third party flips up, then we deal with that then.
If you are town, this assumes that you survived to provide your information at that time.

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JMich: But it would also mean up to 2 NKs in a 9 player game, which others have already said that it looks excessive.
Please provide a source for this. I don't recall this being stated.

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JMich: You're missing Sage. Intentional or not I wonder?
I assume there are 3 town roles. Me and Sage make two of them, and Sage's mention of her role doesn't seem to indicate she can verify or disprove my claim. You pushing so hard makes me wonder if you think there is a watcher and/or tracker at play who could verify my claim, but you also think that trent had a role on D1. So either you're saying that there is a 4th role (me, Sage, trent, unknown who can verify) or that trent didn't have a role on D1.
So no, again, my claiming cannot help us any way. Unless one's fishing of course, in that case it could help quite a bit.
Very much intentional.

How would you know whether Sage can verify/disprove your claim or not?
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GammaEmerald: The last paragraph here actually demonstrates my point fairly well. He was actually trying to get me to post content. I feel scum would just push the lynch through. It's been told to me as "scum don't want their mislynches to defend themselves".
The post you quoted and your response to it seems like a massive non-sequitur. Please try again, more clearly this time.
Bookwyrm, your problem is anyone who doesn't agree with you, you are claiming has faulty logic. Your logic is crap. Your case seems to have nothing to do with logic at all. All you have been doing day 2 is disparaging everyone else's efforts and prying people for information which they have already told you is useless to town.

You were the one stupid enough to post your thoughts about whether you think I have a role today or not. How is that useful to Town at all? You are the one off the reservation. You are the one trying to damage town.

I perfectly understand where JMich is coming from. Why give scum extra information when that information isn't useful to town. But keep pressing and calling everyone else's logic bad or filled with swiss cheese when you yourself are either making very dumb decisions or are scum hellbent on gathering information about our roles.

Add to how Cristi is a hypocrite, calling scummy putting anyone to L-2 yet when her suspect is pressed to it, she sees no issue with leaving me there. Furthermore, seems she wants to make some case out of dropped points while she completely ignores my responses like the latter.

The answer to your question is reading into your motives and plan of attack. I've pointed out the massive flaws to your logic. How it would be ill-advised for any scum team to quick hammer at this juncture of the game since we cannot be at a true MyLo. Because this forum makes it difficult to manage such a quick hammer and possible protective roles, one of which has already been claimed. But based on this faulty premise, you make a directed case claiming these are the only combinations and trim them down to your whims.

As Sage has suggested, you just gloss over or minimize the possibility that Gamma might be scum, instead directing all your attack at me. @Sage, this is what I mean by pokey/stabby and end argument justifying the means. It's clear Cristi's focus was on me and she is making contrived arguments to push it through. Another example is when she is pressed about Drealmer, and now she seems convinced Drealmer was very likely town. She's only saying that because it strengthens her argument and helps cover up the hole of what she is doing.

Prior to Cristi's proclamation of how towny Drealmer is, here are her previous reads on Drealmer:
Post 111 "None of drealmer, trent, sage, or JMich have pinged me."

Drealmer made two posts since that which clearly have swayed Cristi's opinion so much...
Post 149
sorry, folks
been in a funk and unable to focus
will muster the energy today to get back into it
from a quickskim - still quite comfortable with my wyrm vote and pretty sure he's scum, dess is my 2nd suspect - uncomfortably don't have as many SRs as I'd like
have a couple strong TRs though, which is interesting (not naming them because I think that just helps scum)

Then the post that got him mod-killed.

If anyone can see how Cristi's read can shift from "no pings" evolving to...
Post 187 We don't know drealmer's alignment. I think scum-drealmer would have been more involved. My guess is that drealmer was town. If he was scum, we are in a better position, but I don't think we should bank on that.

It's this very wishy-washy read that Cristi claims perfectly explains why considering 1 scum left isn't necessary...and making a long chain of reads based on Drealmer being town has no holes whatsoever...

By post 308, here is Cristi's read...
I think he was likely town. When he was involved, it felt like town dreamer. I don’t buy the argument that it was scum-drealmer because town-drealmer should have been more involved. Scum-drealmer is just as involved, if not more so, than town-drealmer. Drealmer is never at a loss for word, regardless of alignment. He doesn’t avoid games because he is scum. If anything, he is more involved as scum.

I'm sure by the end of the game, Drealmer becomes an Obvi-Town saint. I've never seen such a town read on a null day 1 poster like this.

Again, completely missing the point and flailing trying to turn the argument around. No one is saying it's scum-Drealmer. Everyone is saying we have no friggin clue. My point being, and has always been, that basing posts 230 and 231 on the stretched premise that scum has to be between Sage, Gamma and me because no one quick hammered Gamma is horrible logic. And Cristi should know that. GIGO. Garbage in; garbage out. Her entire "towny" posts are based on this bad logic and thus are just thin air. When one sees that, one has to wonder what the real motivation is...what is her real angle? Because its not scum-hunting...
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JMich: Still not going to answer it since it doesn't benefit us in any way.
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Bookwyrm627: I've already outlined several reasons I think it is relevant. But so be it. I can't force you to answer, and no one else seems to care.
I understand why he is not sharing. If he shares there will be a direction for scum to go.

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JMich: But it would also mean up to 2 NKs in a 9 player game, which others have already said that it looks excessive.
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Bookwyrm627: Please provide a source for this. I don't recall this being stated.
Why have we seemed to have discounted that that is very much a possible second night kill. It is not unheard of that the same person was choosen. I point you to Flubs milk game. Dedo and I were both godfathers and we choose exactly the same every night for many nights. I only knew that there was a second godfather after I choose to not pick anyone to see if my hunch was right. But even that night the person i would have picked dedo picked.


@bookwyrm - What has you bent that Jmich is not what he says? What are your thoughts on crisit and RW? and what are your thoughts on Gamma and his content and lack there of?
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JMich: nip for attention
What are your thoughts on crisit and rw?
I found Gamma's lack of content rather scummy. I pressed him. The reason I laid off and moved on is primarily post 241. Yeah, it could be fake, the PMs are posted in the OP, but the tone seems right. Not off the hook yet, but not a top candidate. I'd be a lot more interested after a Cristi scum flip. I can see an angle where Cristi was coming to his defense.
As to a SK role, I have to agree with JMich here. Frankly, a 9-man game is balanced around town hitting LyLo day 3. We are a little behind the 8-ball because Drealmer's modkill opens up the possibility we do not see the designed two nights of information. A SK in a small game like this, doesn't make a lot of sense unless there was never any Monolith faction. Even then, I only look to SKs in any game when we see an extra NK, not before.
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Sage103082: I understand why he is not sharing. If he shares there will be a direction for scum to go.
Let me ask you a question: What are JMich's opinions on Cristi, RW, and Gamma? Think about it for a minute.

The people he has addressed and interacted with are you and me. Without double checking, it feels (almost) exclusively to be you and me.

There's a big difference between town and scum. Town needs to move. Scum does not have to move unless town is moving. If everyone just sits around, scum win. I've been pushing him because he hasn't been moving.

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Sage103082: Why have we seemed to have discounted ...
Is this directed at me or JMich? My quote is the more recent, but it looks like you're responding to JMich.

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Sage103082: @bookwyrm - What has you bent that Jmich is not what he says? What are your thoughts on crisit and RW? and what are your thoughts on Gamma and his content and lack there of?
He does not appear to have picked up on breadcrumbs. He trusts you for little-to-no reason that I can see. He is not willing to be proactive about helping town.

My thoughts on RW should be pretty clear by now. I see no reason to repeat what I've already said multiple times; if you have a more specific question, then go ahead and ask.

There are a few things that give me twinges about Cristi, but my scum card is way past full. I don't even have space on my card for any theoretical neutrals. If she's scum, then I think she has effectively already won.

My thoughts on Gamma can be summed up with a short clip from The Incredibles.