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white males>all else.
Arguments like these are really counterproductive: a cow is an animal, so all animals are cows.

If people just stopped using logical fallacies, we could have a decent and fruitful discussion. Until that happens, we won't get anywhere. (see the rest of this thread)
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Buckid: After seeing this one erupt all over the internet for the last few hours, as best as I can tell, hardly anybody is actually upset about the inclusion of transsexual characters in gaming. Most of the gamers I've seen talking about this have actually been very supportive.

The big issues seem to be:

1) Nobody likes being interrupted during their fantasy RPGs to be preached at. Most of the criticism I've seen is that the writing is incredibly ham-fisted, and appears to be more interested in pushing an agenda rather than telling a good story that just, y'know, happens to includes trans characters in an engaging and naturalistic manner. (Trans players themselves seem to be quite upset by this type of writing, and seem to think that it does more harm than good to them to be patronized in this way by well-meaning, but ultimately misguided writers.)

2) People in group 1 really, really don't like to be accused of being bigots, just for criticizing bad writing, especially by the people whose game they are planning on buying. (That's just plain awful customer service, and the reason that I won't be buying this game.) This is a problem that has been cropping up in many communities for years, in that there are a lot of very hateful people who seem to enjoy mobbing and harassing others with baseless accusations of being "misogynistic", "homo/transphobic", racist, etc., which is appears to be basically an evolution of classic trolling that tries to hold the vague appearance of having some kind of moral backing. (It doesn't.)

The only thing I can suggest for this problem is that communities need to get better at policing these people, and that anybody who starts throwing these accusations around should be treated in exactly the same way that other persistent trolls are. Also, customers should be showing zero tolerance towards developers that attack their customers in this way.
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jaketward: No one is calling people bigots for criticising bad writing though. This whole furore wouldn't have even existed if the expansion just contained poorly written NPCs. Instead, it contained one (possibly) poorly written NPC that happens to be LGBT. If gamergates are really so up in arms about shoddily written minorities, why aren't they also outraged about all the other instances of stereotypes in games? They're not, because they're focussed on attacking the people trying to change the status quo, that being white males>all else. It's a smoke screen, and anyone who can't, or won't see that, is either dangerously naive or drinking deep from the coolade pitcher.
Please do enlighten me and tell me how the original Baldur's Gate games kept the status quo of white males > all else.
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jaketward: No one is calling people bigots for criticising bad writing though. This whole furore wouldn't have even existed if the expansion just contained poorly written NPCs. Instead, it contained one (possibly) poorly written NPC that happens to be LGBT. If gamergates are really so up in arms about shoddily written minorities, why aren't they also outraged about all the other instances of stereotypes in games? They're not, because they're focussed on attacking the people trying to change the status quo, that being white males>all else. It's a smoke screen, and anyone who can't, or won't see that, is either dangerously naive or drinking deep from the coolade pitcher.
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Taro94: Please do enlighten me and tell me how the original Baldur's Gate games kept the status quo of white males > all else.
I didn't say anything about the original. I'm saying none of this would have existed if a one of the new NPCs wasn't LGBT.

white males>all else.
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Gromuhl: Arguments like these are really counterproductive: a cow is an animal, so all animals are cows.

If people just stopped using logical fallacies, we could have a decent and fruitful discussion. Until that happens, we won't get anywhere. (see the rest of this thread)
I don't know what you you think I said, but that means white males before anyone else.
Post edited April 04, 2016 by jaketward
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Well that’s a prime example of why there is a ”furore”: If it was just bad writing (and especially would not happen to be an expansion to a well-loved classic) it would be criticized for it, and that would be the end of it, with nobody except maybe some obsessive fanboys whipping up a defensive campaign.

Instead, by choosing to concentrate on contemporary issues that are heavily politicized in the real world (but makes little sense in the game’s setting), it’s obvious that it will be taken as an extension of real-world politics by proponents and opponents alike – which is proven by all the pro- and countercampaigning. Notice that the producers do not appeal to the quality of their writing in their defense, but to moral high ground – something that I do not terribly appreciate when shopping for entertainment. At this point, most people are good enough to detect when they are being fed a political opinion, especially when it is done in a naive manner that provides no food for thought whatsoever. Also, I don’t think anyone who is unhappy with the original product on political grounds is a very great choice for a writer of expansion content, no matter what the case in question.

In any case, being a white male is not all fun and games – you get to be responsible for all the evil in the world as well ;)
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Bakusson: Well that’s a prime example of why there is a ”furore”: If it was just bad writing (and especially would not happen to be an expansion to a well-loved classic) it would be criticized for it, and that would be the end of it, with nobody except maybe some obsessive fanboys whipping up a defensive campaign.

Instead, by choosing to concentrate on contemporary issues that are heavily politicized in the real world (but makes little sense in the game’s setting), it’s obvious that it will be taken as an extension of real-world politics by proponents and opponents alike – which is proven by all the pro- and countercampaigning. Notice that the producers do not appeal to the quality of their writing in their defense, but to moral high ground – something that I do not terribly appreciate when shopping for entertainment. At this point, most people are good enough to detect when they are being fed a political opinion, especially when it is done in a naive manner that provides no food for thought whatsoever. Also, I don’t think anyone who is unhappy with the original product on political grounds is a very great choice for a writer of expansion content, no matter what the case in question.

In any case, being a white male is not all fun and games – you get to be responsible for all the evil in the world as well ;)
But they obviously didn't concentrate on political issues. It's just a few sidelines in an otherwise huge amount of content. To me, this whole thing seems to be way out of perspective.
Every moderate and balanced review is basicly burried underneath these hysterical allogations of Beamdog doing some kind of gender and identity politics via SoD. That is simply not true. Its what you're doing here in GOG. I find it distastefull. This place should be about videogames and the reviews about videogames should be honest and balanced. Ofcourse its just the ideal, but the SoD page is a very sad sight at the moment.

And even if you disliked the writing in SoD (and I assume you have reviewed the entire game instead of focusing on few lines). It does not justify giving this game the lowest rating unless you have reviewed the other aspects like gameplay, gameworld design and so forth.
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Bakusson: Well that’s a prime example of why there is a ”furore”: If it was just bad writing (and especially would not happen to be an expansion to a well-loved classic) it would be criticized for it, and that would be the end of it, with nobody except maybe some obsessive fanboys whipping up a defensive campaign.

Instead, by choosing to concentrate on contemporary issues that are heavily politicized in the real world (but makes little sense in the game’s setting), it’s obvious that it will be taken as an extension of real-world politics by proponents and opponents alike – which is proven by all the pro- and countercampaigning. Notice that the producers do not appeal to the quality of their writing in their defense, but to moral high ground – something that I do not terribly appreciate when shopping for entertainment. At this point, most people are good enough to detect when they are being fed a political opinion, especially when it is done in a naive manner that provides no food for thought whatsoever. Also, I don’t think anyone who is unhappy with the original product on political grounds is a very great choice for a writer of expansion content, no matter what the case in question.

In any case, being a white male is not all fun and games – you get to be responsible for all the evil in the world as well ;)
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yggr: But they obviously didn't concentrate on political issues. It's just a few sidelines in an otherwise huge amount of content. To me, this whole thing seems to be way out of perspective.
If I recall correctly, they've changed personalities of some already established female characters, to "oppose sexism".

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loup: Every moderate and balanced review is basicly burried underneath these hysterical allogations of Beamdog doing some kind of gender and identity politics via SoD. That is simply not true. Its what you're doing here in GOG. I find it distastefull. This place should be about videogames and the reviews about videogames should be honest and balanced. Ofcourse its just the ideal, but the SoD page is a very sad sight at the moment.

And even if you disliked the writing in SoD (and I assume you have reviewed the entire game instead of focusing on few lines). It does not justify giving this game the lowest rating unless you have reviewed the other aspects like gameplay, gameworld design and so forth.
As far as I read these reviews, most of them focus on problems with gameplay, user interface, multiplayer and numerous bugs.
Post edited April 04, 2016 by Taro94

white males>all else.
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Gromuhl: Arguments like these are really counterproductive: a cow is an animal, so all animals are cows.

If people just stopped using logical fallacies, we could have a decent and fruitful discussion. Until that happens, we won't get anywhere. (see the rest of this thread)
That's got nothing to do with what you quoted. Sorry, but please get your definitions right before you start throwing around technical terms.
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Totenglocke: As has been demonstrated many times, SJWs don't play games and do not buy them. Sure, they demand that certain things be in games, but they won't pay money for it. Spitting in the face of potential paying customers to satisfy rabid SJWs that will not buy your game is a great way to end up bankrupt. Just ask the developer of Sunset who tried a similar strategy.
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jaketward: The only one sounding anywhere near rabid in this thread is you fuck nuts.
Actually, he's describing exactly what happened.
In the case of Sunset, the developer (Tale of Tales) spent a fortune on publicity in Kotaku and Polygon and whatnot. Then, when Sunset didn't sell as well as expected, the devs went on social media to berate "gamers", i.e. the people who were never going to buy their not-game anyway. Now you see a lot of threads made by folk saying they considered playing the game, but the attitude of the developers really put them off.
And now ToT have shuffled off the gaming scene, just like old Phil Fish (who also attacked gamers). You know, it's almost like killing the golden goose was a bad idea for them, don't you think?
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yggr: But they obviously didn't concentrate on political issues. It's just a few sidelines in an otherwise huge amount of content. To me, this whole thing seems to be way out of perspective.
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Taro94: If I recall correctly, they've changed personalities of some already established female characters, to "oppose sexism".

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loup: Every moderate and balanced review is basicly burried underneath these hysterical allogations of Beamdog doing some kind of gender and identity politics via SoD. That is simply not true. Its what you're doing here in GOG. I find it distastefull. This place should be about videogames and the reviews about videogames should be honest and balanced. Ofcourse its just the ideal, but the SoD page is a very sad sight at the moment.

And even if you disliked the writing in SoD (and I assume you have reviewed the entire game instead of focusing on few lines). It does not justify giving this game the lowest rating unless you have reviewed the other aspects like gameplay, gameworld design and so forth.
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Taro94: As far as I read these reviews, most of them focus on problems with gameplay, user interface, multiplayer and numerous bugs.
They didn't change characters from the original game. From what I read, they fleshed out characters they felt to be lacking. All within their own content, not within the original campaign.
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Taro94: If I recall correctly, they've changed personalities of some already established female characters, to "oppose sexism".

As far as I read these reviews, most of them focus on problems with gameplay, user interface, multiplayer and numerous bugs.
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yggr: They didn't change characters from the original game. From what I read, they fleshed out characters they felt to be lacking. All within their own content, not within the original campaign.
I meant to say they changed personalities of already existing characters, never said they did this in the EE of the original titles.
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Totenglocke: As has been demonstrated many times, SJWs don't play games and do not buy them. Sure, they demand that certain things be in games, but they won't pay money for it. Spitting in the face of potential paying customers to satisfy rabid SJWs that will not buy your game is a great way to end up bankrupt. Just ask the developer of Sunset who tried a similar strategy.
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davidacampbell: So why do you think Beamdog just does it anyway? Because this is important enough to them, and they believe the market can handle it. It's because if you guys had your way we would keep repeating the 80's/90's for the next 100 years. The originals still exist, you don't have to buy these expansions. Vote with your wallet and then maybe show a little dignity and shut your mouth.
Beamdog did it because their main writer is a self-professed SJW who openly stated on the Beamdog forums that she hopes to put even more SJW content (her term, I'm not labeling her) in future games. They always have to go to the extreme, even when it hurts their financial well-being.
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mainzelcount: Could someone please post Quotes with spoiler warnings from Dragonspear with these controversial parts (like Minsc talking about gamergate). It could help clarify this stuff. Thanks.
I second this. Could you please? It's rather a strong statement that they've ruined the game. From what I hear the story is okay at least.

As for the matter, I don't really care if they include whatever characters they feel necessary or add some unexpected detail to a character as long as it fits in and is done with good storytelling. Agenda or not, if they keep their creativity intact while applying it, no problems. In the end “Ave Maria” is a prayer and I love that song, religion or not. (Hint: I rather dislike religions.)

On the other hand if it's hamfisted or just plain silly, then it's creativity hampered by politics, which happens as well. These days, a lot.

And I do hope they haven't changed anything in the original game's story. Social justice (as if mob had any way of being just, lol) or not, doing that would have been a sacrilege.

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Totenglocke: their main writer is a self-professed SJW who openly stated on the Beamdog forums that she hopes to put even more SJW content (her term, I'm not labeling her) in future games.
Proof please? I'm rather distressed by the notion to be fair. O_O

PS. I'm a white straight male. And if someone thinks I somehow am committing some kind of crime by being one, then said someone's opinion probably is as (if not more) prejudiced as mine.
Post edited April 04, 2016 by vdrandom
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SJW ruining games.
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Totenglocke: Beamdog did it because their main writer is a self-professed SJW who openly stated on the Beamdog forums that she hopes to put even more SJW content (her term, I'm not labeling her) in future games. They always have to go to the extreme, even when it hurts their financial well-being.
That's the problem with all these crazy leftists. All they're interested in is compassion, equality and fairness. Screw those guys.