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yggr: So you say that every single sequel, mod, dlc or fanfic which picks up an existing set of characters and which is not done by the original author ... is sacrilegeous crap?
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Taro94: It's disrespectful and plain bad to suddenly change established personalities of original characters just because you don't understand what they are supposed to be.

If someone bought the rights to Deadpool and changed his personality to that of Superman's, because he considered the original character sexist and inappropriate, this would rightfully enrage the character's fans.
Art (let's consider games art, won't we?) is not about respect.
Following your line of thought, we'd have to ban Disneys Aladdin alongside with Oh Brother Where Art Thou and Ulysses by Joyce. Things change, times change and medial output changes with them. You don't have to like it - many things I don't for sure - but there is no point closing your eyes to the fact. We can criticize the way things are done, but not the fact that they are done in itself.
Trent is at it again.
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Taro94: It's disrespectful and plain bad to suddenly change established personalities of original characters just because you don't understand what they are supposed to be.

If someone bought the rights to Deadpool and changed his personality to that of Superman's, because he considered the original character sexist and inappropriate, this would rightfully enrage the character's fans.
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yggr: Art (let's consider games art, won't we?) is not about respect.
Following your line of thought, we'd have to ban Disneys Aladdin alongside with Oh Brother Where Art Thou and Ulysses by Joyce. Things change, times change and medial output changes with them. You don't have to like it - many things I don't for sure - but there is no point closing your eyes to the fact. We can criticize the way things are done, but not the fact that they are done in itself.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying Beamdog is obliged to be respectful. I'm saying they should not be surprised that reviews are bad and sales are low if they're NOT respectful, because that's how it works. If people don't like something, they don't buy it. And I sure don't like forced personality changes.
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Johenk: Trent is at it again.
Is this supposed to be funny? Don't get it...
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yggr: Art (let's consider games art, won't we?) is not about respect.
Following your line of thought, we'd have to ban Disneys Aladdin alongside with Oh Brother Where Art Thou and Ulysses by Joyce. Things change, times change and medial output changes with them. You don't have to like it - many things I don't for sure - but there is no point closing your eyes to the fact. We can criticize the way things are done, but not the fact that they are done in itself.
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Taro94: I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying Beamdog is obliged to be respectful. I'm saying they should not be surprised that reviews are bad and sales are low if they're NOT respectful, because that's how it works. If people don't like something, they don't buy it. And I sure don't like forced personality changes.
True, what you like and what you don't is entirely up to you. And Beamdog really could have anticipated controversy. I guess they simply underestimated the impact of the whole thing.
I can't blame them, I'm kind of baffled myself. In my opinion, it should not be that big a deal.
Post edited April 06, 2016 by yggr
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Ed Greenwood is completely wrong. This isn't about the presence of a trans character, this is about the WAY he was put into the game and the way Scott and Beamdoh have talked about it (insulting the classics as sexist, racist, etc).

He and others are Simply trolling, they ought to know better.
Post edited April 06, 2016 by lumin
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yggr: So you say that every single sequel, mod, dlc or fanfic which picks up an existing set of characters and which is not done by the original author ... is sacrilegeous crap?
No, I'm saying you must have respect for the source material. You can do humour/comedy or just a modernised version of something as long as it's done with respect. But when Beamdog talks about what's wrong with BG1 and 2 and talk about sexist characters and calling beloved characters a "nagging wife" but they will "fix" all of these flaws.... well, then don't act surprised when the audience who loved the originals get angry. It's the fans of the original games that Beamdog is counting on and those are the fans that gets mad when Amber Scott doesn't treat the source material with respect and dignity.
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Johenk: Trent is at it again.
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yggr: Is this supposed to be funny? Don't get it...
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Taro94: I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying Beamdog is obliged to be respectful. I'm saying they should not be surprised that reviews are bad and sales are low if they're NOT respectful, because that's how it works. If people don't like something, they don't buy it. And I sure don't like forced personality changes.
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yggr: True, what you like and what you don't is entirely up to you. And Beamdog really could have anticipated controversy. I guess they simply underestimated the impact of the whole thing.
I can't blame them, I'm kind of baffled myself. In my opinion, it should not be that big a deal.
It shouldn't be that big of a deal, but it is not really baffling if you check out a site like "http://voxday.blogspot.com/". That will give you a pretty good idea of the way gamergate folks perceive reality.
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yggr: So you say that every single sequel, mod, dlc or fanfic which picks up an existing set of characters and which is not done by the original author ... is sacrilegeous crap?
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jepsen1977: No, I'm saying you must have respect for the source material. You can do humour/comedy or just a modernised version of something as long as it's done with respect. But when Beamdog talks about what's wrong with BG1 and 2 and talk about sexist characters and calling beloved characters a "nagging wife" but they will "fix" all of these flaws.... well, then don't act surprised when the audience who loved the originals get angry. It's the fans of the original games that Beamdog is counting on and those are the fans that gets mad when Amber Scott doesn't treat the source material with respect and dignity.
No work of art is perfect. Most of them reflect the times in which they were created. One can recognize the defects - whether they be aesthetic, political, social or ethical- and still have respect for a particular work.

Heck look at all the different types of Batman that have been depicted in the last 60 or so years. The 60's tv Batman is vastly different from the Batman in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Nolan or the creators of the tv show lacked respect for the original material. Not everyone is going to like all the different versions, but you don't usually see the ranting and raving about the original material being 'raped' like some of the critics of this expansion.
Post edited April 06, 2016 by Ssnake51
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jepsen1977: No, I'm saying you must have respect for the source material. You can do humour/comedy or just a modernised version of something as long as it's done with respect. But when Beamdog talks about what's wrong with BG1 and 2 and talk about sexist characters and calling beloved characters a "nagging wife" but they will "fix" all of these flaws.... well, then don't act surprised when the audience who loved the originals get angry. It's the fans of the original games that Beamdog is counting on and those are the fans that gets mad when Amber Scott doesn't treat the source material with respect and dignity.
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Ssnake51: No work of art is perfect. Most of them reflect the times in which they were created. One can recognize the defects - whether they be aesthetic, political or ethical- and still have respect for a particular work.

Heck look at all the different types of Batman that have been depicted in the last 60 or so years. The 60's tv Batman is vastly different from the Batman in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Nolan or the creators of the tv show lacked respect for the original material. Not everyone is going to like all the different versions, but you don't usually see the ranting and raving about the original material being 'raped' like some of the critics of this expansion.
But Nolan's Batman is an alternate version of Batman history than the 60s Batman. Dragonspear is not.
The more relevant analogy would be if Nolan's Batman was a sequel to the 60s Batman. And I'm pretty sure this would be met with controversy, just like Dragonspear has.
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lumin: Ed Greenwood is completely wrong. This isn't about the presence of a trans character, this is about the WAY he was put into the game and the way Scott and Beamdoh have talked about it (insulting the classics as sexist, racist, etc).

He and others are Simply trolling, they ought to know better.
I don't believe he's trolling, he's just been mislead about why people are upset. Just like every single time when this issue pops up.
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lumin: Ed Greenwood is completely wrong. This isn't about the presence of a trans character, this is about the WAY he was put into the game and the way Scott and Beamdoh have talked about it (insulting the classics as sexist, racist, etc).

He and others are Simply trolling, they ought to know better.
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DadouXIII: I don't believe he's trolling, he's just been mislead about why people are upset. Just like every single time when this issue pops up.
He's making assumptions about this controversy's motives, I guess I can make assumptions about his.
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DadouXIII: I don't believe he's trolling, he's just been mislead about why people are upset. Just like every single time when this issue pops up.
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lumin: He's making assumptions about this controversy's motives, I guess I can make assumptions about his.
What you say is that you are better at judging the consistency of a Forgotten Realms setting than Greenwood.
Wow.
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yggr: Is this supposed to be funny? Don't get it...

True, what you like and what you don't is entirely up to you. And Beamdog really could have anticipated controversy. I guess they simply underestimated the impact of the whole thing.
I can't blame them, I'm kind of baffled myself. In my opinion, it should not be that big a deal.
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Ssnake51: It shouldn't be that big of a deal, but it is not really baffling if you check out a site like "http://voxday.blogspot.com/". That will give you a pretty good idea of the way gamergate folks perceive reality.
Do you check under the bed for Gamergate every night before you go to sleep?
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Ssnake51: No work of art is perfect. Most of them reflect the times in which they were created. One can recognize the defects - whether they be aesthetic, political or ethical- and still have respect for a particular work.

Heck look at all the different types of Batman that have been depicted in the last 60 or so years. The 60's tv Batman is vastly different from the Batman in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Nolan or the creators of the tv show lacked respect for the original material. Not everyone is going to like all the different versions, but you don't usually see the ranting and raving about the original material being 'raped' like some of the critics of this expansion.
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Taro94: But Nolan's Batman is an alternate version of Batman history than the 60s Batman. Dragonspear is not.
The more relevant analogy would be if Nolan's Batman was a sequel to the 60s Batman. And I'm pretty sure this would be met with controversy, just like Dragonspear has.
No. It would not. Just consider, for example, the StarWars-Novels. Some of them are considered more canon than the movies - by fans! And they really take their spin on iconic characters like Luke or Han.
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Ssnake51: No work of art is perfect. Most of them reflect the times in which they were created. One can recognize the defects - whether they be aesthetic, political, social or ethical- and still have respect for a particular work.

Heck look at all the different types of Batman that have been depicted in the last 60 or so years. The 60's tv Batman is vastly different from the Batman in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Nolan or the creators of the tv show lacked respect for the original material. Not everyone is going to like all the different versions, but you don't usually see the ranting and raving about the original material being 'raped' like some of the critics of this expansion.
True, but Nolan never said that the 60ies Batman was offensive and needed to be fixed. That's the attitude from Amber Scott that makes many people angry. It's not that art changes over the years or that new people have new interpretations of something, but instead it is the notion that a beloved franchise like BG is wrong and needs fixing because that implies that the people (like me) who enjoyed the original work are sexist, transphobic, and bigots and people generally don't take too kindly to being called that.