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low rated
Some of you are really retarded to rate a game because of a one-liner.
A disgrace to humanity, I daresay.
low rated
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Totenglocke: http://archive.is/Lwu6p#selection-1837.0-1849.123

Beamdog is pushing the SJW agenda with this expansion and spitting on the original games (ironic, since without those games, they'd be unemployed). If you don't support this crap, do not buy this game and make sure everyone knows what Beamdog is doing.
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vsommers12: I like diversity in writing so I bought it. Thanks for the warning though.
I never said that no one should buy it, I just provided some information that might cause some people to not want to support it. Turns out that most of the gaming community seems really opposed to it. Everyone gets to decide what to spend their money on. ☺️
Since Warriors are a core component of BG and D&D, the more the merrier I say, whether they be Dwarven Warriors, Barbarian Warriors or Social Justice Warriors. As Keldorn might say, "Who can argue with Justice?" :)

Surely a First World crisis here, a Trans individual might sell you a Healing potion - oh I can't play the game anymore!

Please....
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ydobemos: Please quote me the "in-game and D&D lore" that endorses sexism (even though the very first character creation sub-screen does the exact opposite) and states that gay and bi people do not exist.
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dtgreene: Actually, I can, well, sort of.

AD&D 1e Player's Handbook, page 9, lists lower strength limits for female characters. The table on page 15 does as well.

(Note that this is contrary to the quote on page 6: "You will find ... no baseless limits on female strength or male charisma." No limit on male charisma appears here.)

Fortunately, this sexist rule was removed in 2nd edition, and is therefore not implemented in any of the Infinity Engine games. (The SSI Gold Box games do implement this rule, however.)

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Totenglocke: So you'll buy a game for inserting completely out of place gender issues? This is why games are getting worse and worse each year and why we have things like Blizzard removing a character from Overwatch because idiots are offended that one of the characters was an attractive female.
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dtgreene: Yes, and I don't think they're ever "out of place".
While I believe we both agree in general on this debate in that, depending on how it is done (I have purchased but not played this yet) there is nothing wrong with having a transgender NPC in a game, I must disagree with this political correctness where RPGs feel compelled to have no physical differences between males and females. Why would male barbarians with maximum physical strength need to be massive bodybuilders (as game artists usually depict) if a skinny girl who apparently cannot deal with any armor heavier than a chainmail bikini (as the same artists also depict) has the same strength/size/physique score?! I realize why RPG developers do this; because females do in fact have physical disadvantages vs. males and no real compensating advantages and some gamers will react in a 'Sarkesian' sort of way, I just think this is lazy and senseless design. A better way to make playing females in RPGs as attractive as playing males would be through social interactions. For example male characters being unable to get an audience with the Amazon queen who hates men but females can actually talk to her and get valuable quests/items or some such.
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Taro94: Yes, exactly. I would be displeased with having opposite political agenda pushed in the game, too. For example if there was an NPC who told you that homosexuals are abominations or something like this. This would be just as distasteful as what Beamdog did.
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dtgreene: How is this any worse than having a character who told you dark elves are abominations or something similarly racist? That sort of thing happens all the time in Baldur's Gate 2, and it's even good aligned characters who say that. (Just try recruiting Viconia with Aerie and Keldorn in the party.)
Indeed! Just try *keeping* Viconia in a party with Keldorn. Racial animus runs deep on the Sword Coast and people are not at all shy about expressing it.

In both BG and BG2 your first interaction with Viccy is with her as a victim of racial intolerance and bigotry - not at all subtle and not at all out of place in a game... whatever the genre or milieu...

The fact that just having her in your party costs you reputation is also not the least bit subtle - bigotry exists in that world and you pay a social cost for "consorting" with the "wrong" sorts of people - not unlike the situation in a much more familiar world, our own. :(
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Totenglocke: Sure thing, https://i.imgur.com/uFJZC03.jpg?1 That was on Beamdog's own forum where she posted that. She had an agenda to push and she pushed it, hard. You can go on various websites / forums and find screenshots of the trans dialogue, which was executed very poorly and even a trans person on Steam wrote a scathing response about how forcing token trans people into a video game just makes real trans people look bad.
Pushed it hard? It's a non-recruitable NPC encounter that will last mere minutes in a 25-30 hour game. A game that is chock full of diverse NPC's.
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dtgreene: How is this any worse than having a character who told you dark elves are abominations or something similarly racist? That sort of thing happens all the time in Baldur's Gate 2, and it's even good aligned characters who say that. (Just try recruiting Viconia with Aerie and Keldorn in the party.)
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Lasivern: Indeed! Just try *keeping* Viconia in a party with Keldorn. Racial animus runs deep on the Sword Coast and people are not at all shy about expressing it.

In both BG and BG2 your first interaction with Viccy is with her as a victim of racial intolerance and bigotry - not at all subtle and not at all out of place in a game... whatever the genre or milieu...

The fact that just having her in your party costs you reputation is also not the least bit subtle - bigotry exists in that world and you pay a social cost for "consorting" with the "wrong" sorts of people - not unlike the situation in a much more familiar world, our own. :(
I wholeheartedly agree. There were and always will be social and political issues in games. Not surprising, as it's living people who are writing the stories. And it's a good thing also.
The thing with this discussion is that some people can't stomach certain social issues like transgenders. What if the NPC in question was, for example, a drow on the run from captivity, telling the protagonists about evil slavers and whatever else he's been through? It would be equally clumsy, somehow out of place and not really adding to the story.
And nobody would think twice about it.
(By the way, I like your avatar ;) prog rules! )
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yggr: The thing with this discussion is that some people can't stomach certain social issues like transgenders. What if the NPC in question was, for example, a drow on the run from captivity, telling the protagonists about evil slavers and whatever else he's been through? It would be equally clumsy, somehow out of place and not really adding to the story.
And nobody would think twice about it.
(By the way, I like your avatar ;) prog rules! )
What if the character is a transgender drow?

(I actually think this could make an interesting plot, especially considering how drow society has strict gender roles. As a matter of fact, has any D&D source dealt with drow who don't confirm to the gender roles (like male drow who want to become priests)?)

Of course, come to think of it, in BG2, do the drow react specially to male priests? (I know there's a reaction if you are a female mage and participate in the duel, as I have actually played through that part with such a character.)
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dtgreene: How is this any worse than having a character who told you dark elves are abominations or something similarly racist? That sort of thing happens all the time in Baldur's Gate 2, and it's even good aligned characters who say that. (Just try recruiting Viconia with Aerie and Keldorn in the party.)
You don't seem to understand drow society - drow as a race are considered evil by DnD alignment system with only a few exceptions (like Drizzt and Zaknafain). Drow society is also matriarchal and all drow females are above males. This is also why drow males can be mages but females can't because all the females are clerics of the Spider Queen and magic is seen to be beneath females.

Having these racials tensions in the Forgotten Realms is not "racist" as you suggest but instead gives depth to the setting and characters. To inject your own politics and morals into stories is always a bad idea just like being able to identify with or BE the main character can be bad. It's okay for stories to have unsympathetic characters that we can't relate to and all we need to ask is: is it a fair representation of that character to make it a good story.
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yggr: The thing with this discussion is that some people can't stomach certain social issues like transgenders. What if the NPC in question was, for example, a drow on the run from captivity, telling the protagonists about evil slavers and whatever else he's been through? It would be equally clumsy, somehow out of place and not really adding to the story.
And nobody would think twice about it.
(By the way, I like your avatar ;) prog rules! )
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dtgreene: What if the character is a transgender drow?

(I actually think this could make an interesting plot, especially considering how drow society has strict gender roles. As a matter of fact, has any D&D source dealt with drow who don't confirm to the gender roles (like male drow who want to become priests)?)

Of course, come to think of it, in BG2, do the drow react specially to male priests? (I know there's a reaction if you are a female mage and participate in the duel, as I have actually played through that part with such a character.)
Can't remember... But you're right, there's some potential for intricate storytelling.
Anyway, how does drow society deal with the fact that, in the ad&d universe, one can basically change gender at will? Considering that gender defines nearly everything about you, your position and your future, a belt of gender switching (how was it called in bg1? ) must bring some horrific implications with it.
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dtgreene: What if the character is a transgender drow?

(I actually think this could make an interesting plot, especially considering how drow society has strict gender roles. As a matter of fact, has any D&D source dealt with drow who don't confirm to the gender roles (like male drow who want to become priests)?)

Of course, come to think of it, in BG2, do the drow react specially to male priests? (I know there's a reaction if you are a female mage and participate in the duel, as I have actually played through that part with such a character.)
Lloth used to have male priests - but level limits made it suck to be one.
Eventually all the male priests dissappeared so either Lloth:
a) killed them
b) turned them into Driders
c) turned them all female
d) altered history that they were all born female (thus would never have knowledge of ever being male)

All well within her power.
Could be d - but probably a or b cause she's evil.
Post edited April 05, 2016 by tremere110
high rated
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dtgreene: How is this any worse than having a character who told you dark elves are abominations or something similarly racist? That sort of thing happens all the time in Baldur's Gate 2, and it's even good aligned characters who say that. (Just try recruiting Viconia with Aerie and Keldorn in the party.)
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jepsen1977: You don't seem to understand drow society - drow as a race are considered evil by DnD alignment system with only a few exceptions (like Drizzt and Zaknafain). Drow society is also matriarchal and all drow females are above males. This is also why drow males can be mages but females can't because all the females are clerics of the Spider Queen and magic is seen to be beneath females.

Having these racials tensions in the Forgotten Realms is not "racist" as you suggest but instead gives depth to the setting and characters. To inject your own politics and morals into stories is always a bad idea just like being able to identify with or BE the main character can be bad. It's okay for stories to have unsympathetic characters that we can't relate to and all we need to ask is: is it a fair representation of that character to make it a good story.
How can racial tensions not be racist?
In my opinion, you can't keep your own morals, your own ideas out of stories. That's what writing is all about, to convey views of the world. They may differ from your own, but they always contain bits and pieces of the person who created them, of the society they were created in and much more.
True, you can have unsympathetic characters. But what makes them good characters is not their rule as bad guys per se. Good villains are complex, they have issues, may they be of a moral nature, psychological, driven by fear or passions or whatever else.
So please don't tell me that moral our politics or social issues have no place in games or stories or any other work of art. They do. They are integral to it.
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vsommers12: I like diversity in writing so I bought it. Thanks for the warning though.
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Totenglocke: I never said that no one should buy it, I just provided some information that might cause some people to not want to support it. Turns out that most of the gaming community seems really opposed to it. Everyone gets to decide what to spend their money on. ☺️
Unless you have some good data to support your claim that most in the gaming community oppose having gay characters in this game I find it hard to believe. After all, the majority of people in the states now support gay relationships and no longer look at gays as being morally defective.

I've been gaming for over 20 years and am delighted that games are coming out now that reflect the cultural shift to inclusiveness of a minority group that has been shat upon for far too long.

Also, a lot of people in this thread seem to assume that this is merely a political issue. I believe that view to be misguided. It is really a moral or ethical issue.

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yggr: So please don't tell me that moral our politics or social issues have no place in games or stories or any other work of art. They do. They are integral to it.
Right on!
Post edited April 05, 2016 by Ssnake51
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Lasivern: Indeed! Just try *keeping* Viconia in a party with Keldorn. Racial animus runs deep on the Sword Coast and people are not at all shy about expressing it.

In both BG and BG2 your first interaction with Viccy is with her as a victim of racial intolerance and bigotry - not at all subtle and not at all out of place in a game... whatever the genre or milieu...

The fact that just having her in your party costs you reputation is also not the least bit subtle - bigotry exists in that world and you pay a social cost for "consorting" with the "wrong" sorts of people - not unlike the situation in a much more familiar world, our own. :(
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yggr: I wholeheartedly agree. There were and always will be social and political issues in games. Not surprising, as it's living people who are writing the stories. And it's a good thing also.
The thing with this discussion is that some people can't stomach certain social issues like transgenders. What if the NPC in question was, for example, a drow on the run from captivity, telling the protagonists about evil slavers and whatever else he's been through? It would be equally clumsy, somehow out of place and not really adding to the story.
And nobody would think twice about it.
(By the way, I like your avatar ;) prog rules! )
Yeah, if certain issues as game content prevent one from playing/enjoying a game, so be it. Move on and find a game that meets whatever standards one might have. Hello free market!

In the Court of the Crimson King... :) Still have the original vinyl from when it came out.... Makes a very good madman avatar for gaming. >grins<
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yggr: I wholeheartedly agree. There were and always will be social and political issues in games. Not surprising, as it's living people who are writing the stories. And it's a good thing also.
The thing with this discussion is that some people can't stomach certain social issues like transgenders. What if the NPC in question was, for example, a drow on the run from captivity, telling the protagonists about evil slavers and whatever else he's been through? It would be equally clumsy, somehow out of place and not really adding to the story.
And nobody would think twice about it.
(By the way, I like your avatar ;) prog rules! )
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Lasivern: Yeah, if certain issues as game content prevent one from playing/enjoying a game, so be it. Move on and find a game that meets whatever standards one might have. Hello free market!

In the Court of the Crimson King... :) Still have the original vinyl from when it came out.... Makes a very good madman avatar for gaming. >grins<
Nice!
And now, I can go to sleep with the knowledge that there are still reasonable people about ;) it's getting rather late over here...