Final Fantasy 6 and 7. (Note: This narrative doesn't reflect the actual order I played the games in. I actually played 6 first, then 7, then 5, mainly due to 5 not originally being released in the US.)

You have Final Fantasy 5, a wonderful game with a great class (or "Job", as the game calls it) system, with tons of classes available, tons of secondary abilities to choose from, and a reasonable sense of balance. Wonderful game that actually *felt* like a Final Fantasy game, had interesting bosses and fun abilities (Mix is my favorite) and was fun to play. Also, while everyone could eventually do *anything*, no one setup could do *everything* (or even everything worth doing) at once.

Then came Final Fantasy 6. Here, the setting is changed so it no longer feels like a Final Fantasy game (where are my Red, White and Black mages?) and they *threw away* that Job system. Instead, each character has only one unique ability and the other "ability" slot is always Magic (once you get Espers, anyway). In the early game, most of the unique character abilities are just different ways to do damage, with Locke's ability to steal makes him not particularly useful. Once you get Espers, the "Magic" skillset starts to overshadow everyone's unique abilities, and there is eventually the gamebreaking spell called "Ultima". It hits all enemies, is much stronger than Flare and Meteor (regardless of the number of enemies), and it ignores defense, making Flare and Meteor pointless. To add insult to injury, most of FF5's fun abilities are either absent (Mix, which is *far* more interesting than Throw) or made useless (Lore, which replaces Blue Magic, is severely outclassed by Magic).

Another problem with Final Fantasy 6 is the large number of unskipable cutscenes. For a large portion of the game, the gameplay is frequently interrupted by lengthy cutscenes with ridiculous amounts of dialougue, meaning that you get less actual gameplay in a given amount of time. I would like to *play* the game, not just watch.

Final Fantasy 6 still had a few redeeming qualities. First, not having a clear "main character" is a plus, and the two characters who would fill the spot happen to be female. (Plus, one of them (Terra) is asexual, which is different from the usual.) Second, the game eventually "opens up". Once you get the second airship, the game becomes non-linear and you no longer have to deal with the constant long cutscenes; the problem is that it takes too long to get to this point. Note, however, that FF5 had a majority female playable cast (the main character wasn't, but it seems like he was the least important character to the game's plot), and it did become somewhat non-linear near the end, but not to the extent of FF6.

Then comes FF7. Take FF6, throw away its redeeming qualities, and make the problems I mentioned worse. Materia can allow a character to do *everything* worth doing, as the stat cost to equipping materia is too small and characters later get too many materia slots. Limit Breaks could have been an interesting strategic mechanic, except that the one character who gets interesting limit breaks (rather than boring damage limit breaks) is taken from your party mid-way through, punishing the player for progressing the plot to that point. Knights of the Round shows that the developers didn't care about game balance *at all*. (Who thought that was balanced?) The cutscene problem is even worse, and the game never opens up the way FF6 eventually does. Even worse, the game makes you play minigames that do not belong in an RPG and which are not even that well implemented. Also, the game never lets you remove the main character from the party the way FF6 (and Chrono Trigger, incidentally) eventually did. Also, the game has the same setting problem of FF6; the game does not feel like a Final Fantasy game *at all*. Where are my white and black mages?

You didn't play X-2, did you? I remember I was stuck for 30 minutes in one of starting locations because of new action-jump system, and storyline would make Disgaea look like very serious game.

Actually I liked that FF 6 and FF 7 allowed you to cross the limits of one class. Same with FF X / FF XII (non-IZJS version). It adds many interesting vectors to character progress. After such games I can't stand western approaches with "you need 50 skill points to enjoy your class, but you can only get 20 in your playthrough" (hence why I lost all interest in Lords of Xulima) and can barely stand low level caps.

And gameplay-wise Final Fantasy were never hard games (with exception of FF II (NES), Garuda in FF III (NES)and optional challenges), so they didn't require much strategy in battles. Which is probably good thing, especially when you try to play something in contrast with Agarest, where every normal battle feels like superboss, and don't let me get started on bosses. Like that one on screenshot, boss has 3 Pixies support (Pixies are like Fairies just much worse), 2 Werewolves, and it is linked with all of them (except 1 lone wolf). Pixie alone could serve as one of the harder bosses in Final Fantasy...

Yes the first Souls game is still my favourite by far, narration - as a source of motivation - definitely matters to me and Demon's Souls did this much better.

Definitively agree on this. They had a very cool sci-fi story going on but then it turned into a really bad version of the Seven Samurai concept. You need to have strong and likable characters to pull this kind of theme off, which ME2 did not have in my opinion. Instead the story comes off as very weak and shallow to me.

That's not even mentioning the shift in focus from actual science-fiction to a soap-opera, where personal relationships are in the focus and not the fun and interesting science fiction stuff.

Maybe we are just weird for expecting good science-fiction content in a science fiction game.

Final Fantasy 9? It has black mages, at least; I don't remember any white mages anywhere in the game. It's still more in line with earlier games' settings than the other PS1 FFs, though.

Which reminds me, Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2 definitely belong in this thread. Terrible characters, nonsensical plots, long cutscenes, needless angst, painful combat, ugly deus ex machina, and a million other reasons.

Dagger/Garnet was typical White Mage.

Ah! Right you are. Not quite as explicit as the presence of black mages in the game, but I suppose it's better than nothing.

It has two white mages (Dagger and Eiko), but it still lacks a red mage.

(Then again, Red Mages haven't always been implemented well. FF1 and FF3 DS had good Red Mages, but FF3 (original) and FF5 had Red Mages who were only useful in the earlier part of the game.)

Eiko is Summoner, not White Mage.

To like or dislike something you first need to have played it, and it sure seems that many people who actually play DNF don't think its as bad as mainstream opinion wants us to think.

Most gamers have also been brainwashed by our lovely gaming media into thinking the game is horrible, without actually playing it for themselves. I'm mainly referring to the Steam community here, who happen to be the most vocal of gamers as they post their opinions everywhere they possibly can, in every nook and cranny of the internet.

In fact hating DNF has more or less become an entry-condition for mainstream acceptance as a reviewer or critic.
DNF is not the only game to serve this function, there's a bunch of them that we are just supposed to hate by default.

Exactly, it felt like ME2 was designed by a group of people who took no consideration of the original game.
As a result it got a completely different style of gameplay and a radically different storyline emphasis.

Technically and visually ME2 was an improvement, not just on PC but also on consoles, however it is the gameplay and/or storyline that us dissenters are not happy with.

For me the move from ME to ME2 felt just like the move from DAO to DA2. The change was equally as dramatic, a move from something tactical and comparatively complex into something very simplistic and limiting.

Edit: corrected my spelling errors.

Actually, the way I see it, Eiko is more of a White Mage (notice that she gets Arise and Holy), while Dagger is more of a summoner (notice that she gets the main offensive summons).

Eiko has a horn (which is clear indicator of Summoner class, just look at same FF V Summoners) and of race of summoners. White Magic for Eiko and Summons for Garnet just happened to be secondary abilities (class-wise, not power-wise).

Meanwhile white clothes/hood is clear indicator of White Mage in FF setting.

And on that same note, I'd like to add:

Star Wars: The Old Republic

Seriously, why? The second game did so much in redeeming the first, and then... Bioware threw a tantrum and completely destroyed any hope the series had at a decent story.


On other unrelated notes, I'd like to add:

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, X-2, and XIII
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn
Mega Man X6... and X7 was so bad that even when compared to X6, it was still an unworthy successor

Call of Juarez: The Cartel

What, you wanted them to stick with the same old tropes for decades? I'm glad they took the series in a new direction, 6-8 are the series highlights and 9 is a fine reboot. After that began the decline.