Remember many couples in TNG, do you?

I honestly don't remember what "that" kiss you're talking about, apparently it made no lasting impression on me whatsoever. I think you're being absurdly eager to call "propaganda" on there simply being a gay couple, that openly acts like a couple.

Yeah, I still call bulshit on that. The cloak really isn't that much of a problem, if we can easily detect their incoming ships. Also, if we can do that, how did they enter federation space and surprise attacked Lorca's shuttle?

Yes, how many times did they kiss while on duty? Which episodes?
("The Naked Now" doesn't count and transporter beamouts don't count either, as that can be explained as a parting ceremony.)

You have proven my point sir!
It made no lasting impression, because it was so badly done, out of place, and with wrong dramatic motive.

It was supposed to be a gay version of "Plato's Stepchildren", but it failed.


Well, yeah, it only became a problem in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, when the ship could actually fire while cloaked (hello Mr. Meyer!). Conveniently, the Klingons never built another ship like that...


Presumably they used impulse engines or whatever their matching technology for that is?

Uhm... what? There were no couples on that show, at least among the main characters. Even Riker and Troi were not together.

Uhm...no. Quite the contrary. If it were so bad and out of place it would have made an impression. Clearly it didn't feel out of place to me or in any way remarkable.

It really depends on how you define a couple.
There were many who either were, had been, came to be, or existed in another timeline as couples.

I define it as two people are currently together in a relationship. There was no one on TNG in a comperable close, long term, living together relationship.

Miles O'Brien & Keiko.

But yeah, those weren't regular cast.

And only one of them was starfleet.

I think that's the point.

It's hard for me to judge but personally I wouldn't say they are pushing agenda but I feel like they are too proud of having gay couple and are trying to show it off to show how awesome they are and try to show it off as much as possible.
Plus it is also pushed strongly because it was quite apaprent where one of the persons is heading story-wise.
Overall I don't like it much but mostly because I don't like the actors much. Especially the doctor.

But I feel like it is there a bit for the sake of just being there.

In a way a bit like having fuck word there only to be able to say they did it and to be able to say it was them who crossed the boundaries.


Then there was a lot of couples and kissing in DS9, couple on Voyager and substantial amount of sex and titillating action on Enterprise so it's not like it's something new to Star Trek.

I see what you mean, and agree at least to an extent. Like I said already - it is written and acted very poorly. I just think the exact same applies to the relationship between Burnham and the whatshisname new security chief.

The point was WHILE ON DUTY.
In Discovery these two, who are both senior officers, do it in front of other people in a critical moment. This wasn't an off-duty gathering over a glass of synthehol.

Yeah that didn't make any sense.
That seriously devalued the dramatic impact of f-word.

The situation didn't call for it, and the person who said it was not a believable person to say it. But then again, Discovery has so many things happening out of character, that it's unbelievable. Like Saru on that crystal planet, yeah, right... and in the best traditional spirit of self-contained episodes, everything returned back to normal in the following episode. So nothing happens if you plan to trap Starfleet personnel on a planet for the rest of their lives, but in the case of the main protagonist she got a life sentence basically for disobeying orders.

That relationship (while started in a completely unbelievable manner) has some serious dramatic potential. A virgin Vulcan-trained orphan black human with a life long prison sentence having an affair with a possibly untrustworthy white POV who has been tortured and sexually abused? Think about the potential!!! Freud would have a field day here!
Of course, I don't think Star Trek is the right place for that kind of drama, so there's that.

Watched 10th episode today. What can I say? I really liked it!

WARNING!!! SPOILERS!!!

1. I really liked Killy's new looks.
2. I knew that Tyler is disguised Voq. But moment when Tyler killed doctor was very surprising.
3. Quite interesting love triangle we have here: Michael, L'Rell and Tyler/Voq. 4D love triangle, bot only in 3D space but also in mental dimension? :)

I wonder, if at some point, Lorca will be replaced by his mirror counterpart. And will return with Discovery from mirror universe.

P.S. Fans back then watching newly arrived series:

TOS: Black female as an ship officer? Japanese guy on deck? Russian guy also? What is this? Communist propaganda? And why are there so much short skirts and bikinis? Is this adults only? And why lazy teleporters instead of landing on shuttles? This series is dead!!!

TNG: Data in an android? After Terminator they show this?! And this Wesley character is super annoying! Picard is nowhere near Kirk! And why they redesigned Klingons? And this deflector shields is just save everyone in almost any episode? This series is dead!!!

DS9: Why on the space station? Star Trek was always about starships and exploring! We already have Babylon 5 running, we don't need another space station series! And a grimdark war in my bright SciFi future of Star Trek??? And a virtual sex? This series is dead!!!

VOY: An former borg fanservice girl? An hologram doctor? And holograms can riot? And this Threshold episode with Warp 10 was just like it was made on drugs! This series is dead!!!

ENT: Who needs a prequel? Have they run out of ideas for continuing timeline? And a new race in prequel which wasn't known by anyone later? An a fanservice vulkan girl without V-shaped brows? And a captain who makes idiotic things? This series is dead!!!

And now we have DIS...

I'm torn on this one. On one hand, this was probably the most watchable episode so far (maybe thanks to Frakes directing), simply in terms of execution, pacing stuff like that.

But...

I'm not sure about the whole Tyler thing - at least they did adress the fact that he was examinated in detail when arrived on Discovery, and how extensive the physical changes would have to be to make a Klingon pass for a human... but I still call bullshit on them not being able to see traces of so extensive alterations. Or even the alterations being possible. For heavens sake, Klingons have multiple redundancy internal organs. They have twenty three ribs, three lungs, multiple stomachs and eight chambered hearts! And what about DNA? Did they surgically alter that too?

Still, the biggest problem with the episode for me highlits the ultimate failure of Discovery -the failure to be like Star Trek. The Mirror Universe isn't shocking, or fun, or interesting at all, when the "main" universe is already dark and oppressive. When your captain is already a ruthless psycho. If U.S.S. Discovery wasn't already a poorly lit hellhole of a ship perhaps transforming it into the I.S.S. Discovery would have had some impact. As things are- it didn't.

And killing the doctor... look, I'm calling him "the doctor" because I don't even remember his name. You have to make me know and care about the character first, if you want his death to mean anything to me. This way, it's just there for shock value (and doesn't even score high in that regard), just to follow the popular Game of Thrones template. Look, we're killing off characters! Aren't we modern? Aren't we edgy?

Anyway, why the hell would the doctor confront Tyler with this without any security at hand? Why wouldn't he inform the captain immediately? I mean, he just discovered the guy is a sleeper agent. Didn't know the details, but he did know that much.

Oh, and let's have sex while the captain is getting brutaly tortured. I'm sure he won't mind us taking our sweet time.

EDIT: And of course there are the massive issues with continuity again. For one thing, Discovery's visit to the mirror universe will have to be somehow entirely burried and hidden, since no one knows anything about the Mirror Universe in TOS. For another, the whole story hinges on the events from the Enterprise double episode In a Mirror, Darkly. Why is that a problem? Well, because if the show chooses to rely on continuity for something of key importance to it's plot, it makes it impossible to hand wave all the previous (and future) continuity issues claiming "continuity isn't important, fanboys should stop obsessing over it". You can't have it both ways.

And I though it was really lame how they avoided showing a proper picture of the Constituion class Defiant, and instead showed only some weird hollow outline, all to avoid showing such a terrible, old design in their cool new high budget show:P I aways liked how all the "TNG-era" shows not only were not ashamed, but were proud to reconstruct sets from Trek's past when the opportunity arised. It was joy for fans to watch, and a respectful nod to the iconic designs of the show that started it all. But no, Discovery is way to cool for that, like a teenager ashamed of being seen with their parents.

I would post my thoughts but Breja already presented most of them so there is no need to.
Decent Frakes directing and problems with all those other things.

But for me it's more important what is told than how so I know I didn't like it.


I wonder how long they intend to stick in grimdark future of parallel universe before they return to grimdark future of their own world.
If it is one time shtick or they are going to mirror (:-)) DS9 and soon all viewers will be begging them to finally stop with it and leave it behind.

On a ship where previous chief of security went and get herself killed just for the kicks?
I am not surprised at all. I am more surprised you‘d expect anything better.

Now for something completely different.

And he totally was. To the point they started to phase him out of the series.

And sure it was a bit hard to use to and they had to use Defiant and other means to get the show off the station sometimes.

It wasn't? It is in TOP 5 worst ST episodes ever. FFS, because they flew too fast they evolved into salamaders and had babies together.

And sure, they broke a lot of continuity.

I am sure they put there all those scene where she is in skimpy clothing and rubbing decon gel all around herself only to make it more true to Star Trek and to make it better sci-fi.

Some of them are valid complains and some were understandable worries even when they didn't turn out right. Doesn't mean one can't be concerned about his favourites universe.

I didn't, I just refuse to let this stuff slide just because they already set the bar so low for themselves.