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mrkgnao: - Both have thousands of DRM-free games: I can't be sure because there is no list of all the DRM-free games on Steam, but I strongly suspect that Steam's selection is larger (or much larger) than GOG's
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Zrevnur: Dont know anything about these but found in GOG forums:

There is this one: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/steam_games_you_can_play_without_the_steam_client

from https://www.gog.com/forum/general_de/fck_drminitiative_f97a0/post72
https://store.steampowered.com/curator/7540156-DRM-Free-Games/
(same as above I think) https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games
https://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam
Yes. I'm familiar with them, but they're all very incomplete I believe, since they depend on someone interested in DRM-free actually trying the game AND reporting. I believe there are thousands more that simply no one bothered to test and/or report.

The best list is the fandom one (indeed the same as the thread) and it has more than 3,000 items, which is why I said that Steam probably has many more DRM-free games than GOG.
Post edited May 01, 2021 by mrkgnao
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mrkgnao: Yes. I'm familiar with them, but they're all very incomplete I believe, since they depend on someone interested in DRM-free actually trying the game AND reporting. I believe there are thousands more that simply no one bothered to test and/or report.

The best list is the fandom one (indeed the same as the thread) and it has more than 3,000 items, which is why I said that Steam probably has many more DRM-free games than GOG.
I don't understand what are you trying to demonstrate aside of a reduction to the absurd of things, or pure cynism. Alternative facts.
The command line you are talking about is a workaround, a pseudo official backdoor tool. It can be perfectly neutralized or deleted by Valve if they want to do it, It is not intended as a proper public and perfectly tested feature valid for every game. And anyway it would only be valid or practical for the end user. It doesn't matter how easy it is for you.

If some day that command line dissapears, the drm free fantasy you are talking about would be vanished. The Steam client is mandatory for installing the game. Do you want to know other workaround to have drm free games in steam? pirate them. But come on, let's be serious.

If that means DRM free for you then I understand a lot of thing in this forum.
Post edited May 01, 2021 by Gudadantza
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mrkgnao: Yes. I'm familiar with them, but they're all very incomplete I believe, since they depend on someone interested in DRM-free actually trying the game AND reporting. I believe there are thousands more that simply no one bothered to test and/or report.

The best list is the fandom one (indeed the same as the thread) and it has more than 3,000 items, which is why I said that Steam probably has many more DRM-free games than GOG.
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Gudadantza: I don't understand what are you trying to demonstrate aside of a reduction to the absurd of things, or pure cynism. Alternative facts.
The command line you are talking about is a workaround, a pseudo official backdoor tool. It can be perfectly neutralized or deleted by Valve if they want to do it, It is not intended as a proper public and perfectly tested feature valid for every game. And anyway it would only be valid or practical for the end user. It doesn't matter how easy it is for you.

If some day that command line dissapears, the drm free fantasy you are talking about would be vanished. The Steam client is mandatory for installing the game. Do you want to know other workaround to have drm free games in steam? pirate them. But come on, let's be serious.

If that means DRM free for you then I understand a lot of thing in this forum.
I agree that if they disable this tool, one can no longer download new games, but all previously downloaded and backed up games are still 100% playable offline. Which is exactly the same as would happen if GOG decides to remove all offline installers. The situation is identical. And I don't believe one is more or less likely to occur than the other.

I have never pirated games and I don't plan to.
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nightcraw1er.488: ...
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toxicTom: Seems we played different games then. I play it, progression is very noticeable and cool, because after leveling up a bit the different skills and perks really click and form synergies. Stealth works like a charm for me. Although the difficulty mostly comes from interlocking lines of sight, and it's often a real puzzle to untangle enemy groups and patrols to isolate single ones and take them down silently. The "suspicious mode" AI is frankly not very clever. Also stealth and sound are kinda broken - the enemies will hear the breaking of a window from really far away (tip: shoot a window with a silenced weapon and lots of people will go investigate, clearing the path for you), but kicking over cans or bottles does not alert them. That is most likely a bug, because the "I kicked something over" sound is so clear and present, it immediately makes you go "oh shit", but then nothing happens.
Point being, if stealth doesn't work for you, it's either you doing it wrong or a bug. 1.0 was very buggy, but not worse than Oblivion.

If you don't hit anything, maybe practice, I have no difficulty with that. You can even shoot off body parts, and yes, it hits where you aim (with aim assist off). That one is on you. Higher skill level increase damage dramatically, reduce sway and recoil effects (makes aiming easier). Whenever I didn't hit anything it was always clearly my fault.

I do agree that the origin stories are really bare-bone, and I also agree that Act I should be considerably longer, with more missions together with Jackie. Not even many more, but two or three maybe. He's such a great character.

Civilian AI is pretty much shit, I can agree with that. Well it's the same with Witcher 3 where it never bothered anyone. I just don't think that is an important issue. You're of course free to insist on good civilian AI if that is something making a game worthwhile for you.

Combat AI is hit and miss - sometimes they act rather clever, flanking, throwing grenades to flush me out of cover, use weapons that can shoot through cover, switch to melee if they feel I have superior firepower - also depending on who you are fighting they apply different tactics - Arasaka ninjas change tactics often and can be PITA. But sometimes the AI can be really disoriented and end up sitting ducks.

I think something that can't be taken from CDPR is the excellent world building. It's so extremely detailed and created with so much love and care, it actually rivals Witcher 3. There's tons of really impressive environmental storytelling, countless cross references of people and events in emails and logs in places that seem unrelated, and each little alley, dumpster, side road, cafe, apartment whatever of the (pretty huge) city has this handcrafted feel that someone actually paid attention to it, and even placed the litter with thought and care to create a unique thing with character. Explains what hundreds of people were doing those five years...
Might not be important to you, but this is something I cherish very much. I can spend hours just exploring and looking at things and notice the effort that went into them, deciphering what the designer wanted to express. That's not specific to CP, but something where the game really clicks with me.
Also character design, voice overs, mo-cap, acting - that's all top notch. If you are with a group of people where one is speaking, you can actually read the emotions of everybody else from their faces and small gestures - all very subtle and "real".

Judgement about the story I'll reserve until when I actually completed it. Can take a while.

I could go on and on about this game - what is good, was is bad, what is ok, or barely so. It's a rather fascinating piece of software and art.

Point being:
Is the game flawed? Certainly. Too flawed? Up to you. "Bad at every level"? Definitely not. You're of course free to dislike, even hate the game for your own reasons. Like I wrote, if good pedestrian and traffic AI is important to you, well - the game doesn't have it, so you're free to dislike it for that, if it destroys immersion for you (btw. in 1.0 traffic didn't even try to stop for you - they simply ran you over...).

But there is a difference between pointing out flaws and valid points of criticism and blindly raging "everything is shit".

And I also find is weird, bordering on dishonest to complain about GOG preload requiring Galaxy (it's fine to criticise that of course) and then use Steam to play the game. Steam made clients a thing. Without Steam and co I doubt Galaxy would even exist. You gave Valve your money. Go figure.
I did not give money to steam, nor did I say I had a steam account. I do however know people who do, which is the only way I know much about steam. For many years GOG was my my main platform, so it’s perfectly acceptable to complain about Galaxy, the preload, the online only components, the fact the game was built for microtransactions etc. I certainly won’t be giving gog any money for the foreseeable future, and CDPR definitely not. In fact, GOGs actions over the last few years have made me think about getting a steam account just to move away from here, simply because it’s cheaper and no different.
As for your points, I am not going to go through every single bit, it is flawed on every level, if you want to ignore that you are free to do so. For my money GOG gets nothing further due in part to this product, CDPR will never get anything further from me. That is how bad it is. To be hinest I was a big fan of W3 either having tried to get through it several times now, but the difference there is it’s only average. Perhaps the years of patching and dlc did save that one, so maybe there is hope for cyberpunk, but I will never waste my time with it again.
mrkgnao:

No. It is not the same. It is miles away to be the same. But I fear that is something you already know.
Pure reduction to the absurd. Pure cynism and pure retaliation. Sorry but you are defending the undefendable.
Post edited May 01, 2021 by Gudadantza
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Gudadantza: mrkgnao:

No. It is not the same. It is miles away to be the same. But I fear that is something you already know.
Pure reduction to the absurd. Pure cynism and pure retaliation. Sorry but you are defending the undefendable.
I‘m not sure what you really want. Nobody of the people boycotting GOG just woke up one morning and thought „Today I don‘t buy from GOG“, but this was rather a slowly progressing situation. And at certain point of time, one has reached the breaking point and says „no more“. And that people like you din‘t understand the difference between GOG and Steam and why buying from Steam is ok, that shows me your blindness and that there is only GOG for you.

Steam never promissed things like drm free or that they are releasing Devotion and than out of nowhere back off. They never promissed to be your good pals, like GOG did and still try to tell you.
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toxicTom: Steam enforced the client with the massive hit HL2. That's the origin of any client requirement. In my book, every dollar spent on Steam is supporting this. I really don't care how many games on Steam are "DRM-free" in some sense (we had this discussion before - I consider every client requirement to even download the game DRM). Valve established the client requirement for "downloading and playing a game" with Steam and HL2.
This. A million times this.

Any support of Scheme is an endorsement of the status quo, i.e. DRMed gaming as a whole. Scheme and Epic Fail Store give off a hostile presentation to DRM-free gaming because even when users have found the workarounds to have certain select games be like DRM-free, the stores will never (to my knowledge) advertise that fact. The best way to support DRM-free gaming outside of GOG imo is to support DRM-free-friendly smaller stores like Zoom and Fireflower.

I was going to say too that a benefit from buying on GOG is to show them that people do buy and download offline installers through the browser, outside of "the client to end all clients". However, my reading of the "data" topic posted a couple days ago is that GOG doesn't actually track the data of people downloading the offline installers by browser (I could be mistaken on how I understood this, though).
Hi everyone. Sorry, I've been insanely busy over the past week and I have barely been able to keep up with the thread. I will try to update the first post over the weekend.
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toxicTom: You should be aware that Bloomberg is a hedge fund outlet created for spreading "bad news" about companies that their masters are betting on with short-selling. It's a site that creates self-fulfilling prophecies, that's it's purpose. Their modus operandi is:
- write bad things and rumours about a company
- share values drop - which gives credibility to Bloomberg: "See? We were right!", other media pick the story up
- share values drop even more.
- shortsellers make tons of money.

Pretty ingenious in a devilish way.
I wasn't even contemplating there might be a far more sinister conspiracy at work here, I merely figured that Jason Schreier was jumping on the Cyberpunk hate train for clicks.

Be that as it may, he does have a point when he's crying about the get-in-cagie-wagies at CDPR making a pittance while Marcin and the rest of the merry gang at the top (ie. the very people who pushed hard to get this thing out in the state it was in) is bagging $6.3 million each. Especially considering the phony-ass apology video they released a short while ago.
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fronzelneekburm: Be that as it may, he does have a point when he's crying about the get-in-cagie-wagies at CDPR making a pittance while Marcin and the rest of the merry gang at the top (ie. the very people who pushed hard to get this thing out in the state it was in) is bagging $6.3 million each. Especially considering the phony-ass apology video they released a short while ago.
I agree. The money should have gone to the employees who worked their asses off to make the release date (however in sad shape the game was then) and who still work their asses off patching this beast up.
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toxicTom: Steam enforced the client with the massive hit HL2. That's the origin of any client requirement. In my book, every dollar spent on Steam is supporting this. I really don't care how many games on Steam are "DRM-free" in some sense (we had this discussion before - I consider every client requirement to even download the game DRM).
For once I can agree with you 100%.
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joppo: I am glad to announce that ... I'm already 54.60 dollars richer in 2021. Thank you Gog.
Continuing the tradition of reminding Gog of games they're not getting my money for:


Demonicon - $1.02
Imperium Romanum Gold Edition - $1.02
The First Templar - Special Edition - $1.02
Silence - $0.68
Mafia II: Director’s Cut - $2.12

Order total: $5.86

Adding that to the previous $54.60 I already saved $60.46, but gave them 39 cents. I hope they don't spend it all at once.

I gotta admit there have been a small improvement on Gog's part lately as far as disparity between offline and Galaxy installers go, and also a bit more attempts at communication. You at least see the odd blue post here and there, tho they still have a long way to improve. Not enough to make me decide to stop boycotting, but a step in the right direction nonetheless.

On the other hand, that thread of manipulated statistics makes me think that our boycott is having more of an impact than it appears. The timing for that thread was extremely weird... I mean, they spent ages without communicating us anything, why start just now?
And I can't shake the feeling that it's just to give us the notion that everything is fine over there, specifically to attempt to undermine the boycott. As if they're saying they have so much extra money they can easily afford a boycott, and lead some of us to giving in.

Well I see no reason to throw the towel. That thread might not have anything to do with the boycott, but if it does it means we're having enough of an impact that giving up now would be a bad idea. If I'm wrong it won't change much for Gog (but it will for my conscience); If I'm right then going a bit further is the only logical decision.

And, since we always get some people who misunderstand (or pretend to), let me reiterate once again: our goal IS NOT to make Gog close. (Which would be even more of an absurd if the image they tried to project with the statistics is true.)
Our goal IS to lead Gog into going back to being a store we have no qualms supporting. If I were to spend any money on Epic, I would need to take a bath afterwards to wash away the feeling of dirty. For a long time Gog wasn't like that, but when I realized it was undeniable they were heading there I joined the boycott and I will gladly leave it when I see them heading back.
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Just to bump your thread!

Recently bought:

Raji
The Surge 2
Northgard DLC
X3: Terran War Pack
Dysamntle
Medieval Dynasty
Victor Vran DLCs
Hitman Collection
-----------------

59.79 Euro

All the best to you!

phil
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toxicTom: Bloomberg using "flop" in this article has only one purpose: to put even more pressure on CDP stocks, so some hedge fund can squeeze many millions of out the company.
Care to explain how they can do that?
Because normally if someone makes money with shortselling the ones who lose the money (sort of) are the shareholders who buy or sell to them and not the company. So they "squeeze" the money from (former and/or new) shareholders and not from the company.

(And they also said stuff like that about Wirecard: Oh poor Wirecard are the victims of market manipulation so lets forbid the evil shortselling bla bla bla...)

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Gudadantza: mrkgnao:

No. It is not the same. It is miles away to be the same. But I fear that is something you already know.
Pure reduction to the absurd. Pure cynism and pure retaliation. Sorry but you are defending the undefendable.
The functional results (needing the client to download stuff) would be the same. So with "not the same" you mean the odds of it happening are very different? Or something else?

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derwendelin: Just to bump your thread!
I wonder why this thread isnt under Hot topics https://www.gog.com/forum ?
Forgot one thing about the Steam/GOG comparison above (https://www.gog.com/forum/general/boycotting_gog_2021/post2231):
- Boycott: You can boycott Steam and still play games there by buying from key retailers (Humble, Fanatical, etc.), since Valve gets nothing when you buy there; you can't do the same with GOG
Post edited May 01, 2021 by mrkgnao