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ZFR: Thanks. In Mafia, player participation is equal regardless of sign-up order (until you get lynched that is). In Secret Hitler, the "fun participation" factor may depend on your order on the presidency list.
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zeogold: As fate would have it, that actually puts you in first, so:

The game is officially underway!

The current president is ZFR. He must choose somebody to be his chancellor.
Oh, crap.

I actually liked 7. It's kind of a sweet spot. When the game becomes exciting. Not too early where you might as well choose using random, but not too late when the game might be already decided anyway.

Oh, well. At least I can choose randomly with a clean conscience.

random.org selects...

(hehehe... it actually selected me as my chancellor. I had to reroll).

10. Captain Sapphire (JoeSapphire) for Chancellor
So 6 Liberal policies and 11 fascist policies. Chances of 3 Fascist policies can be calculated as so:

(11/17)*(11/16)*(11/15) = 32.6%

So unlikely that 3 Fascist Cards are called and it's 67.4% likely our President and Chancellor get fully tested. So we get a decent idea of confirmation on alignment with the early cards.

As a Liberal I'm happy to have you test my alignment with any chancellorship although I'm sure both every other Liberal and Hitler feel the same way. Fascists perhaps won't want to be tested early as although they get to pass Fascist legislation, they lose cred. As the odds increase or decrease of 3 Fascist policies they lose less credibility drawing those 3 Fascist policies.

Thoughts?
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Lifthrasil: So, the order of the players in your post is also the seating-order at the table, right? Does that make me the first presidential candidate?
Someone from Germany trying to snatch power straight away. What does this remind me of?
CURRENT PROPOSED GOVERNMENT
President: Zenefredi F. Rapoposculous, the Great (ZFR)
Chancellor: Captain Sapphire (JoeSapphire)

Please PM me your yes/no votes on whether you wish for this setup or not. There must be a majority "yes" for this to pass.
Post edited January 09, 2019 by zeogold
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supplementscene: So 6 Liberal policies and 11 fascist policies. Chances of 3 Fascist policies can be calculated as so:

(11/17)*(11/16)*(11/15) = 32.6%

So unlikely that 3 Fascist Cards are called and it's 67.4% likely our President and Chancellor get fully tested. So we get a decent idea of confirmation on alignment with the early cards.

As a Liberal I'm happy to have you test my alignment with any chancellorship although I'm sure both every other Liberal and Hitler feel the same way. Fascists perhaps won't want to be tested early as although they get to pass Fascist legislation, they lose cred. As the odds increase or decrease of 3 Fascist policies they lose less credibility drawing those 3 Fascist policies.

Thoughts?
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Lifthrasil: So, the order of the players in your post is also the seating-order at the table, right? Does that make me the first presidential candidate?
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supplementscene: Someone from Germany trying to snatch power straight away. What does this remind me of?
*Dances into the room*
Jazz Hands

First time playing this game, seems like it will be fun


So Scene, why are you so concerned with whether or not 3 Fascist cards will be in play at once?
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zeogold: As fate would have it, that actually puts you in first, so:

The game is officially underway!

The current president is ZFR. He must choose somebody to be his chancellor.
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ZFR: Oh, crap.

I actually liked 7. It's kind of a sweet spot. When the game becomes exciting. Not too early where you might as well choose using random, but not too late when the game might be already decided anyway.

Oh, well. At least I can choose randomly with a clean conscience.

random.org selects...

(hehehe... it actually selected me as my chancellor. I had to reroll).

10. Captain Sapphire (JoeSapphire) for Chancellor
I've goto say this was a very fast nomination without getting a good 'feel' out of any of the candidates. Using random.org takes away any reasoning for your choice aswell as taking away any blame for the choice later in the game. Picking a government without first analysing what is said favours the fascists.

And the chance you'd pick the no10 candidate who might not get a presidency to test themselves with seems like it could possibly be convenient. Almost feels like a coup where Hitler is being positioned to gain trust. Could JoeSaphire be Hitler? Maybe I'm being overly suspicious way too early in the game but I'm not overly keen on the feeling I get from this 'early random vote'.

If you're Liberal I would hope you'd stop using Random.org when playing as Town/Liberal. Although I know you have used random.org for your votes in Mafia games as a Town player so while it's not out of character it's also not good Liberal play imo
Joe, are you fascist? I want to get a good 'feel' of you.
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supplementscene: Thoughts?
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Lifthrasil: So, the order of the players in your post is also the seating-order at the table, right? Does that make me the first presidential candidate?
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supplementscene: Someone from Germany trying to snatch power straight away. What does this remind me of?
If you're thinking of that one person that's in the title of the game, he wasn't from Germany. He was Austrian. ;-)

About your thoughts: at the start of the game I see no reason to reject any government. We don't have any info and the only way of getting info, for now, is by letting people enact policies.
My current suspicion is thus:

If the Fascists see Hitler at no10 on the board, that they will panic, and try to get him in power ASAP to prove his credentials. If JoeSaphire is Hitler at number 10, then the Fascists need to get him to be given Liberal credence early because he will not be able to prove his liberal nature in a presidency for 9 more turns when the game could well be over. There plan will be to nominate Hitler early and to get him to pass a Liberal card as soon as possible to achieve this.

Using Random.org would be a cunning excuse to do this if ZFR is Fascist. He doesn't need to give a legit reason why he's picking the no10 placed player on the board because it was an 'fluke random chance'.

The chance of ZFR being Fascist or Hitler given that I am Liberal is 4/9, so 44.4%, with a 5/9 or 55.6% chance that he's Liberal.

I don't like Random.org as town play or the fact it brought up the 10th placed player. There's a genuine concern that this could be an early ploy for the Fascists to put Hitler forward and because of this I'm inclined to Vote No. Unless I can be convinced otherwise @ZRF

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supplementscene: So 6 Liberal policies and 11 fascist policies. Chances of 3 Fascist policies can be calculated as so:

(11/17)*(11/16)*(11/15) = 32.6%

So unlikely that 3 Fascist Cards are called and it's 67.4% likely our President and Chancellor get fully tested. So we get a decent idea of confirmation on alignment with the early cards.

As a Liberal I'm happy to have you test my alignment with any chancellorship although I'm sure both every other Liberal and Hitler feel the same way. Fascists perhaps won't want to be tested early as although they get to pass Fascist legislation, they lose cred. As the odds increase or decrease of 3 Fascist policies they lose less credibility drawing those 3 Fascist policies.

Thoughts?

Someone from Germany trying to snatch power straight away. What does this remind me of?
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trentonlf: *Dances into the room*
Jazz Hands

First time playing this game, seems like it will be fun

So Scene, why are you so concerned with whether or not 3 Fascist cards will be in play at once?
Because if a Fascist policy is passed by the first government then we know there is a 67.4% chance it's happened because one of, or both of, the players are fascist. Where as there's a 32.6% chance it's because of the card draw. Calculating the odds each round helps us analyse the governments actions.

So whenever a card draw occurs we get information of the likely inclination of the Chancellor/President. But it isn't as clear as when someone dies in Mafia. It could genuinely be an unfortunate draw, thus we look at the odds.

And if a Chancellor is Hitler he will likely to vote with Liberal policies so that he gets put into power after 3 Fascist votes are cast

The other information is from voting records. We get to see who voted and then we can ask if their vote was reasonable and for the liberal cause

The last information we get is when a President picks a Chancellor. Does he do it quickly without information or slowly analysing information? Fascists have an agenda and not make reasonable picks.

The Chancellor and President may have different versions of events when a Fascist card is drawn and we have to decide who we can trust.

Once we trust certain players are Liberal, ie town read, then we will try to get them into government so we get Liberal policies passed. Ideally we want 2 quite strong town reads early. If the Town read starts to pass Fascist policy we re-assess our read of them.

Anyway enjoy the game and I hope the new addition is doing well

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ZFR: Joe, are you fascist? I want to get a good 'feel' of you.
Bwahahahaha but still my suspicion above is unwavered. Humour is used as deflection and random.org is not town play even though I know you do use it when playing Town. I kind of think you partly do it when playing Town in order that you can do it in a later game when playing Scum. At least 2 games you've been told it's reads as Scummy and you still do it. If you are Town again and still using random.org you need to stop.

I can see it's perfectly plausible your Liberal and using random.org but because I don't consider random.org to be Town play and because it could put an unfortunately no10 placed Hitler into power I'm very hesitant to give you a yes vote but I haven't voted no yet either.
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ZFR: random.org selects...
About as impartial as one can get with no information. Statistically you're going to select a liberal (in the majority). Seems the most impartial way to select someone.

I have a question for Joe. What is your stance on kicking puppies and kittens? (this may affect my vote for/against you. RT-CB will remember this)
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rtcvb32: What is your stance on kicking puppies and kittens? (this may affect my vote for/against you. RT-CB will remember this)
For me, it depends...

If it's kicking them hard then I'm for it. If it's kicking them lightly, then I'm also for it, but slightly less.
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supplementscene: Using Random.org would be a cunning excuse to do this if ZFR is Fascist. He doesn't need to give a legit reason why he's picking the no10 placed player on the board because it was an 'fluke random chance'.
That is true and I also don't like using random.org for game relevant decisions. However, ZFR has a history of doing exactly that. His RVS votes in regular Mafia are usually made through random.org. So, while it is true that Fascists might be trying to give Hitler Liberal-credentials as early as possible, and that using random.org as excuse would work, a liberal ZFR would act exactly in the same way. Seeing that we are basically in the equivalent of the RVS.
And I'll stop using random.org for RVS, the minute someone explains why a random.org vote is worse and more anti-town than "Hey, you started your post with a T and your avatar is white so I vote for you. Haw haw haw" vote.
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ZFR: random.org selects...
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rtcvb32: About as impartial as one can get with no information. Statistically you're going to select a liberal (in the majority). Seems the most impartial way to select someone.

I have a question for Joe. What is your stance on kicking puppies and kittens? (this may affect my vote for/against you. RT-CB will remember this)
Unless ofcourse he was a fascist using random.org as an excuse for picking Hitler. If he is Liberal and he is using random.org he has a 5/9 chance of picking Liberal and 4/9 of picking either Fascist/Hitler. Therefore if he is Liberal he is probably going to make a better choice by going on his own reads of people.

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supplementscene: Using Random.org would be a cunning excuse to do this if ZFR is Fascist. He doesn't need to give a legit reason why he's picking the no10 placed player on the board because it was an 'fluke random chance'.
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Lifthrasil: That is true and I also don't like using random.org for game relevant decisions. However, ZFR has a history of doing exactly that. His RVS votes in regular Mafia are usually made through random.org. So, while it is true that Fascists might be trying to give Hitler Liberal-credentials as early as possible, and that using random.org as excuse would work, a liberal ZFR would act exactly in the same way. Seeing that we are basically in the equivalent of the RVS.
Yes, I mentioned that he did this in his town play but because of meta reading in forum mafia I always did wonder if it was used as a way to normalise the same tactic when playing as a Scum. In some ways an early vote in Mafia is fair enough but in SH a nomination carries more weight as you can't change the nominated player before a final call. Where as in Mafia you change your vote as the game unfolds. Which makes it either bad Liberal play or Scummy Fascist play.

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ZFR: And I'll stop using random.org for RVS, the minute someone explains why a random.org vote is worse and more anti-town than "Hey, you started your post with a T and your avatar is white so I vote for you. Haw haw haw" vote.
Liberals benefit from sitting back letting the smoke settle, gaining reads and then voting or in SH nominating/voting. Mafia benefit from a fast nomination and fast vote because Liberals have no information to go on with their vote or nomination.

Random.org is the perfect excuse for sinister voting/nominating. That's why it reads as a scummy action whether you are in fact Scum or not.

Assuming you're Liberal, what if for whatever reason you read Joe as Scummy if perhaps he slips? You can't change your nomination now. Where as in Mafia you change your vote as the Day progresses.
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supplementscene: Liberals benefit from sitting back letting the smoke settle, gaining reads and then voting or in SH nominating/voting. Mafia benefit from a fast nomination and fast vote because Liberals have no information to go on with their vote or nomination.

Random.org is the perfect excuse for sinister voting/nominating. That's why it reads as a scummy action whether you are in fact Scum or not.

Assuming you're Liberal, what if for whatever reason you read Joe as Scummy if perhaps he slips? You can't change your nomination now. Where as in Mafia you change your vote as the Day progresses.
You didn't answer my question. How is a random.org RVS vote worse from any-other-stupid-reason RVS vote?
What scene says makes sense but in this case i think we can give ZFR the benefit of a doubt. The chances that the 10th player is Hitler are 1:10. Of course if there is a lot of people who think that we should skip this round, we can do that, but I'm not sure it makes sense so early in the game.