I was thinking of Vitek first, then Flocke, then whomever but I won't insist on that.


I have the feeling this sounded a bit different in your head.

Not sure exactly why you thing I'm scum, all I can find in all your posts is "He always says he plays the same as Town or scum" "He hasn't really been suspected by anyone", and all this to me reads "I can't read him so I think he is scum". You're basing a scum read on pretty much nothing, and when it turns out you are wrong will most likely cost us the game. You might want to not be so lazy and actually go back and read the game to see how it's played out.

I see everyone has said ok for claiming and I have no issue going first.

I see. Thank you.

Nope, not you. I don't know yet, but I would hope to find out. I have you cleared town because of the Yogs Vanila/gregular thing, now that that has been explained to me.

you are correct, it sounds much harsher in print than I intended. I still think it was quite silly of scum to RB instead of NK'ing me, but I digress. I still think C is incredibly unlikely. So unlikely that I'm not going to consider it as a possibility. i mentioned it only for completeness' sake.

I think you misunderstood me. I tracked you because your not moving would town!confirm you to me. because i was RB'd and unable to track you, I am in YesterDay's boat of still being unsure about everything except a) myself (town) and b) Dedo (town because of the regular vanilla thing--scum would have wanted the imitation vanilla extract.)
But yes, i do need to reread everything.

Except that's not what you wrote in post . There you wrote that trent was one of your top suspects. In post [url=https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_67_mamlakat_al_shams/post1245]1245 trent is even THE top suspect. So, depending on what you are asked, trent was either very scummy to you (one of your top suspects) or totally unreadable and you just wanted to town-prove him. That seems very self-contradictory.

Also, your basic assumption that you base your 'I thought I could clear trent' argument on is faulty. How did you know that all scum would be moving around at Night? Where did your confidence that "anybody who doesn't move at night is town" come from? Assuming two scum, one of them might very well do nothing at Night, unless they have a second PR. You argued that from the number of players scum should have a PR - and they did but we already eliminated it. So where did your confidence that scum still have a PR come from, before you were (supposedly) blocked?

What? Why? If you really are Town, I don't think that it was silly of scum to leave you alive as a distraction, as long as they can keep you ineffective. We already discussed this. So you saying that it was silly of scum to RB you instead of killing you looks weird.


All in all your play looks quite reactive and inconsistent. You react to pressure, you defend yourself, but you do contradict yourself while doing so. This reminds me strongly of Carradice under pressure. He got quite defensive and also self-contradictory. If you really are Town, please explain which of the above posts is true and which isn't. For example was trent your top suspect or wasn't he? If he was, why? If he wasn't, why did you write that he was?


That's fine with me as well. @Vitek, @Flocke: would you do the honors? Or would you prefer some other sequence?

Then who? Your thought process led you to Vitek, so that's one. You are adamant that there are two left so there should be another one. Your thought process also cleared Trent Flocke. The evidence supporting Lift's innocence are far greater in comparison to the others so you can't put him below others. That leaves two other possibilities - one of them is me and you just said I'm not it. The other one is... oh!

Allright. I did my re-read of trent and I come to the same conclusion as dedo. @dedo: sorry. I didn't find any big tell that you overlooked. The interaction with Carradice really looks like something that scum!trent would have no reason to do so early.
- trent voted Carradice early in D1. Not for the not reading thing, but for Carradice's OMGUS reactions
- trent proceeded to point out inconsistencies in Carradice's posts. Especially when Carradice attacked dedo on flimsy reasons.
- he picked up the ball again on D2, pressuring Carradice about not voting the Day before.
- calls out C's defensiveness again.
- and all that before it became clear that Carradice would be in an untenable position in the future.
- he also repeatedly asked others about their opinions and asked them to do a re-read on Carradice
- but he didn't focus exclusively on Carradice, but seems to genuinely scum hunt concerning others as well. (Well, this is NAI, since scum!trent scumhunts too)

The only way scum!trent would be going after Carradice in that way from Day 1 on would be out of sheer vindictiveness for not reading the PM. But I don't see trent endangering his own faction out of vindictiveness. On the contrary, I get the feeling that this is town!trent who picked up on Carradice's defensiveness and inconsistencies early.

Trent might be neutral - there is nothing to point one way or the other - but I don't think that he is in the same team with Carradice. So I'm putting trent in my "not scum" core.

Which means, the number of people I won't vote for Today just increased by 50% and is now (myself, dedo, trent)

Now on to Vitek-Flocke re-reads. When I find the time.

But who then? Dedo asked more than if it is him.

You seem to be omitting Lift a lot. Yesterday you said you will lean scum on him if yog flips town but it seems like you are excluding from all your theories.
Is it because dedo considers him town and you don't want alienate him?

Is this the only thing that you find wrong with those 2 quoted statements?

What about the fact you said it's town-folk trying to nail scum and then you say it would be stupid of scum to block you instead of NK and so you rule it out yet it is exactly what you claim that happened?


You know, you repeat this, "if he moves, he is mafia, if he doesn't he is not", but when you were making that decision to track, you, as town, wouldn't have any confirmation that there is mafia RB and so someone not moving would not automatically clear them if you are convinced there are 2 mafia left.

I don't mind going first if people will it. I personally believe there is at least one scum there and would like them to start but I don't really mind.

I have no issue with Vitek and Flocke going first, I am really interested in what Flocke claims.

I see a lot of doubt concerning Micro, my question is with all the roles we know for sure are in the game a tracker makes a whole lot of sense but would it really make sense for scum to have that role? No one has counter claimed tracker or any other investigative role so I still think it has to be a legit claim and is more than likely Town aligned.

Sorry, I got confused. Where is "there" again?


We are about to do just that, no? Let's see who says what and we can go from there. Still, leaving the role itself aside, does anything else Micro has been saying sound sensible to you?

Trent and Flocke. I don't why but I thought both their names were in that quote and it will make sense but they aren't so it didn't.

I'd love it if you go first. Pretty please? Flocke can be next and Trent third?

Not a lot of sense, he’s all over the place in his reads and decisions on who he says he tracked. If it wasn’t for the role claim not being counter claimed with the breadcrumbs I would probably be voting him as the role fits with what we know so far.

OK. Here are my notes on Vitek from the re-read. They aren't perfectly organized, just miscellaneous notes I took during re-reading.

Vitek

Mocks/votes C for not reading the PM. Rating the not-PM-reading as scummy. (265)
Extends that argument in post 338

- other than dedo, he doesn't attack C for his reaction to the questions (defensiveness, OMGUS) but seems of the opinion that the 'haven't read my PM' claim itself is scummy. Compatible with Scum mad at his buddy for not reading? Yes. Compatible with Town!Vitek? Yes as well.

(339) calls Flocke scum for mentioning Jesters. (jokingly) but mostly town-reads Flocke.
Mostly helpful towards Flocke. A bit coachingly at the start of the game.

Votes Micro, accusing Micro of conjuring Joe as suspect to protect a presumed buddy Carradice (409)
(472) further questioning Micro for his reasons to vote Joe and pointing out Micro's inability to provide a reason.

second Day: points out how 'convenient' it is that C is still alive. But hesitates to vote for him because of the claimed role.
(838) repeats the theory that Micro and Carradice are scum together.
(867) calls Carradice out on his OMGUS voting/town reading tendency. But votes yogs to wake him up in 916
Finally votes Carradice when he became too scummy to be given a free pass. (976). This is compatible both with bussing and with Town hesitant to lynch a claimed PR until the scumminess becomes too big to ignore.

(1124) calls out Micro again for derailing the C wagon on D1 and for being unwilling to understand dedo. And for not doubting C more, after Micro claimed an investigative role.
1167: calls out Flocke for weird voting behaviour.
Keeps questioning Micro.


Summary: it is possible that Vitek was mad at his scumbuddy Carradice for not reading. He voted for Carradice on D2 when, in his own words, C became too scummy to ignore. I.e. when a scumbuddy might realize that C has to be bussed. However, most of the pressure that Vitek puts on Carradice seems genuine.
Interaction with Micro is also quite critical, putting pressure on him for things that are off. Here, there is no being mad for misbehaviour. I get the feeling, that Vitek and Micro are in different camps and one of the two knows it. Of course it could be skillfully played distancing, but all in all Vitek looks more Towny than Micro.
Interaction Vitek-Flocke is positive or even supportive. But wouldn't scum!Vitek coach a scum!Flocke in the always on chat? Still, WIFOM. I could imagine a Flocke+Vitek scumteam. Of course scum!Vitek might be trying to buddy up to newbie!Flocke. Or town!Vitek is just supportive of the new player.

All in all, upon re-reading, Vitek seems leaning Town. But not on a level that couldn't be faked. Still, as mentioned above, I would rate Vitek as townier than Micro. And also as townier than Flocke. Under normal circumstances I would push to lynch Micro first. If Micro is scum, Vitek probably isn't. However, Today we have to be very careful since a mislynch is probably a loss of the game and Micro has his claim and no counter-claim going for him.

Let's see what Vitek claims and take it from there. Next to re-read is Flocke. Once I find the time.

Flocke

Flocke on Vitek: not much. Asks for clarifications and replys to Viteks questions. Consistently neutral-reads him.

Flocke on Carradice: there are a lot of mentions. Tries to explain Carradice's strange behaviour with Carradice being a Jester (could be an attempted save of Carradice). Eventually rates Carradice as non-town (533) while at the same time saying that that might be due to the meta-game stuff. However, calls Carradice's dislike of the Cop role anti-town. Then proceeds to vote SPF.
- Doesn't believe that Carradice didn't read his PM. Which would have made Carradice a liar in Flocke's eyes and therefore an automatic vote from Flocke.
Tries to propose a ZFR+Carradice scum team. And in spite of having Carradice as non-town and as possible scum, is not willing to vote Carradice. We had lots of discussions about that and upon re-reading Flocke really doesn't look better than previously.

Flocke on Micro: initially accuses him of not being visible enough. (post 300) Calls him out for not reading. Calls him out for his inconsistency of his reads on dedo (post 1071). States in 1209 that Micro is his main suspect (together with me), but doesn't vote for him (or me either).

So, all in all Flocke's interactions are compatible with the theory of a Flocke+Carradice+Micro scum team. Some light distancing, but nothing endangering the team. As I theoretized earlier, Flocke could be hesitant to bus, as new scum players often are.
A Flocke+Vitek scum team also looks possible. But that would also mean a Flocke+Vitek+Carradice team and that would mean that Vitek pushed relatively early against his buddy. (see my analysis of Vitek). So I would rate the likelihood of Flocke+Carradice+Vitek as lower. Actually I would be quite confident that it's Flocke+Micro if it weren't for Micro's role stuff.

And then there is simple counting. If we assume two scum, things become not so difficult after all.
I know I'm town. I am strongly town-reading dedo and town-reading trent too. If have the feeling that Micro and Vitek are in different camps. So that leaves Micro+Flocke or Vitek+Flocke. Which has a crossection of Flocke. Yes, of course, my feeling that it's not Vitek+Micro is just a feeling based on their interaction. They could be skillfully playing the distancing game. But I'll go with my gut feeling there for the moment until we have all claims on the table. And my feeling tells me that Micro behaves scummy while Flocke behaves sometimes scummy and sometimes quite towny. But Micro has the claim going for him. Vitek makes a possible but not preferred third in my personal current suspicion rating.

However, I'll reserve voting anyone until after the mass-claim. Perhaps that will shed some new light.

Alrighty.
I am JOAT.
I had 4 abilities.
N1 I blocked yogsloth. It wasn't the most wise of the choices as I should have kept it until there is less players but yeah.

Night 2 I watched dedo. He, with his quite confirmed status, seemed like good choice for mafia visit. It was toss between ZFR and him and unfortunately I chose poorly. He had no visits.
Last Night I tracked Micro. I was doubtful about his claim as it partly overlaps with mine but I wasn't discounting it fully. I was told he indeed visited trent.

Does anyone know in case roleblocked player was tracked it would show tracker who they intended to visit?
I was asking what exactly he was really told to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

I still have one ability left.

Personally, I am now of the opinion Micro is most likely mafia tracker with very well prepared fake claim. Good job on that.
It would mean trent is town which honestly surprised me a bit because unlike dedo I find the way he was parked on Carradice as fairly convenient hiding spot for mafia and had him quite high.

It would most likely leave Flocke and I think I would like to see her go next.