I'm going to point out that ultimately, as long as scum manage to kill enough town, it doesn't matter whether they only nailed vanillas and left two cops and a doctor; they still win. HOWEVER, I do see your point about wanting to hit power roles, as killing those makes it much safer for scum. That's why I have been talking about game mechanics specifically, not powers that may/may not be present. Only those with power roles know whether one is present, but the rest of us can look at how the game might function. You can be pretty sure that scum will be doing that themselves, but in private. We might give them a boost in talking about it openly, but they will always either lead us or be equal with us in information in that category, when comparing group knowledge.

So, I guess my question would be this: how do we go about creating a conversation where scum might slip up, but our power roles won't slip up? I don't see a way to do one without risking the other.

???????????

I'm under the impression that more games than not have had at least an alignment flip as a standard, so I see this as "normal". As for the mafia's room for lies - I don't care if they have less. As far as I'm concerned right now, the harder it is for them, the better.

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The day creeps on. The position of the sun is difficult to guess, with all the heavy clouds and watches are unreliable in the Zone, if they work at all. But it must be afternoon. Somewhere far away a scream is heard, it sounds almost human, but it probably was just one of the many mutated animals that perished in one of the lethal anomalies. A slight wind picks up and whispers in the dry leaves of the radioactive red forest behind you. Good that it rained just recently so that no dust will be stirred up. But ddickinson still doesn't move and still the air near her is filled with a faint St. Elmo's fire and the smell of ozone.
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(An announcement: I have contacted several potential replacement players. So if ddickinson can't give an estimate on when she can return by tomorrow, I'll ask someone to replace her)

This RVS stage is really starting to drag. Everyone is playing the quiet game, and unless we figure out how to move this along then whoever the scum is will be able to manipulate a lynch since it will be rushed.

I do agree with TwilightBard in his post, discussing mechanics of the game at this point is pointless. Any thoughts on it are pure speculation, and all that will cause is confusion that will help the scum.

So Bookwyrm627 I know this is your first game and you are concerned with the setup and how everything is going to work, but that is not what we need to be talking about right now. There might be a point later that it is necessary, but not now. More than one person has pointed this out yet you continue to talk about it. Also, as I pointed out with adaliabooks bringing up possible roles is a very scum move. The only ones to benefit from knowledge of roles is scum, and why would we want to benefit scum?

Vote Bookwyrm627

Bold is my doing;

Did you read all the posts up until your post, or did you just pick a few and in try to find things to go with from the ones you read?


I do think it is hard not to have a player set in your mind to specific way of playing or acting. However, I do think this should be taken into account but not a huge degree as every game is different in many ways and I do think no matter the aliment everyone will play a bit different.

I also agree with the poking and see if it moves or someone else moves.

Everyone is playing the quiet game, and scum can manipulate the lynch if we don't start talking. So I try talking about something, and multiple people comment along the lines of "hey, lets not talk about that, talking about that will help scum. Lets scum hunt instead". The only actionable suggestion for scum hunting that I've seen is to try voting for people to get them to speak up (credit to CSPVG for listing suspects, and someone else mentioned voting specifically).

Here's my question for you then Trent: What shall we talk about instead of the setup of the game?
Followup question: When did I start bringing up possible roles (except as examples to illustrate some other point I was trying to make)?


More general question:
1) Who is willing to straight up claim town?
2) Who is willing to work together to start applying pressure?

For me, the answer to both of the general questions is "I am".

Unvote Sage103082

1. Unfortunately there is not a lot to talk about at this time as nothing has happened.

2. You first mentioned roles in Post 70, talking about discussing roles during the next day cycle. Sage called you on this in post 136. Your response in post 144 was to say you were looking to learn new information to win. Who else besides scum needs to know role information to win? Scum want to know what roles are on the town side so they can Night Kill them and deprive town of the knowledge the roles bring. In the same post 144 you even disagree with me when I sat talking about roles is a bad idea, trying to give scenarios where it is needed. All this says to me is you want to know the roles available to use to your advantage, and that is scummy.

3. I'm town, I'm not so sure you are

4. I have applied my pressure.

Thanks for responding. Now my turn to respond.

1) So now we sit and wait quietly? That seems like a great way to let scum just do their thing.

2) My direct quote: "I figure the role speculation can maybe start tomorrow". Translation: we're not talking roles today, we might discuss them tomorrow. Maybe.

And then this, from the post of mine that you quoted: "I don't know enough to win right now, so yep, I'm definitely looking forward to learning new information." As I've already said: Scum starts with an information advantage. They know their targets, and just have to select which ones have priority (disclaimer: for now I'm assuming there is one mafia faction in play, and will continue to assume so until something indicates otherwise). Town doesn't know their targets; I seem to recall a lot of people complaining about the early role sharing of the two cops last game, but people didn't lynch them because cops give information. Imagine how things might have gone if yogsloth and/or CSVPG had been lynched day 1 and 2. Who else needs role information to win? Town does. You said it yourself, "Scum want to know what roles are on the town side so they can Night Kill them and deprive town of the knowledge the roles bring". Maybe I only think this because I haven't learned differently yet, but town needs to figure out role information even more than Scum, because Scum already have a list of people to work on killing and just want to know where to start.

I disagreed with your statement "When it is stated by someone that they are unsure if this is a role madness game or not that is clearly saying "I am Town with a power role" or "I am scum hoping to get others to talk about roles"". Then I stated why I disagreed.

4) Acknowledged. Looks like I'm the first person to get a second vote? Or at least to have a second player vote for me, the previous one might have been unvoted already. I'd check, but I finished my phone call and need to head for bed.

What this sounds like you are saying is all the townies with power roles should speak up and tell everyone. That'll work I'm sure. I especially like the end where you say " town needs to figure out role information even more than Scum, because Scum already have a list of people to work on killing and just want to know where to start.", I'm sure town revealing their roles will hinder the scum even more from figuring out who to kill first. Good thinking on your part, let's continue this talk of roles and the necessity of revealing them so you can learn information to win.

Pretty sure I have my vote in the right spot

The term LAMIST comes to mind.

LAMIST?

Look At Me, I'm So Town.

Talking about the setup and mechanics wouldn't be a bad thing on a later date, once we've gotten a chance to get a better feel for things and can make more educated guesses. I'm more interested in seeing reasoning and votes, getting people to commit their thoughts that can cause scum to slip up.

That even can extend to lists too. A list of names is ok, but explanations allow for greater conversation. Why is this person on your list? What makes them stand out?

As for your questions:

1) Everyone is willing to straight up claim town, no one is stupid enough to claim Mafia.

2)....Define work together. I'm going to apply pressure with my votes to the people I think are scummy, but I'm not going to jump on some conga line of going from one person to another, that doesn't really get us anywhere.

That doesn't mean it was still a smart move. What saved them was enough variables that no one was willing to take a risk if they weren't even going to find out if the person was telling the truth or not.

Here's the thing, the town can survive without power roles. In fact they have gotten to endgame and won while either losing investigative roles early, or having them be simply ineffective.

But here's the thing, if the power roles exposed themselves, then they are automatically ineffective. Lack of NK causes doubt about the truthfulness of their claim, they get blocked, NK'd, or Hell Mafia could counter-claim and then it's a real mess.

But honestly, the town DOESN'T need to figure out role information. It's the kind of thing that shouldn't be thrown around willy nilly, because there isn't much benefit to know right out of the bat until it's actually needed. Does seem pretty damn fishy to say though, extremely fishy.