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shmerl: I'm not interest in support MS in the slightest. Enough with their lock-in already.
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Johnathanamz: Well then stop talking crap.
You stop. Complaints about Windows come from unsatisfied users. Trying to ignore that is just stupid.
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Johnathanamz: Who cares about the lock-ins.
Developers and users do (that there would be no lock-in). And those who support lock-in reduce choice for others.
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Ganni1987: Yesterday I've installed the Linux Steam client for the first time, just to see if there was a possible (legal) way around the DRM with this game, unfortunately it wasn't the case, uninstalled the game and steam client altogether. Should the game come to GOG I'll be more than happy to buy it.
Nah, Steam doesn't care to inform you about it before buying. A good reason not to use it at all, even though some games can happen not to require Steamworks to run.
Post edited March 18, 2015 by shmerl
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Johnathanamz: Stop being a free loader for once and try Windows 10 preview builds or try it when it fully releases in the summer of this year or around October 2015 or November 2015.
The "free" with Linux has nothing to do with money. Until you understand that, you'll have a tough time understanding anything else I have to say about OS's.
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Johnathanamz: Well then stop talking crap.
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shmerl: You stop. Complaints about Windows come from unsatisfied users. Trying to ignore that is just stupid.
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Johnathanamz: Who cares about the lock-ins.
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shmerl: Developers and users do (that there would be no lock-in). And those who support lock-in reduce choice for others.
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Ganni1987: Yesterday I've installed the Linux Steam client for the first time, just to see if there was a possible (legal) way around the DRM with this game, unfortunately it wasn't the case, uninstalled the game and steam client altogether. Should the game come to GOG I'll be more than happy to buy it.
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shmerl: Nah, Steam doesn't care to inform you about it before buying. A good reason not to use it at all, even though some games can happen not to require Steamworks to run.
What video game developers complain about DirectX?

PC versions of video games sell more on Windows than on Linux and Mac combined.

As I said before 7 major video game engines will support DirectX 12

I know a lot of video game development companies who like DirectX. Epic Games is one of them and of course they also support Linux and OpenGL, and soon Vulkan. But Epic Games does not hate DirectX neither does Crytek, DICE, and so on.

Gabe Newell is the one who has lock-ins with Steam having most of the PC versions of video games selling on Steam exclusively and their refund policies are very bad.

Gabe Newell was mad at Windows 8's store because he was afraid that Microsoft would siphon money away from Steam, Gabe Newell wants Steam to be the #1 top digital distribution service on the internet not letting any other digital distribution service exist without selling PC versions of video games without Steam.

Just look at gamersgate.com, greenman gaming.com, and humblebundle.com they all sell PC versions of video games that have Steam keys only, while humblebundle.com is the only one besides gog.com who also sell 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free PC versions of video games.

You congratulate VALVe on all of this when Steam is more of a lock-in.
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Johnathanamz: Stop being a free loader for once and try Windows 10 preview builds or try it when it fully releases in the summer of this year or around October 2015 or November 2015.
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hummer010: The "free" with Linux has nothing to do with money. Until you understand that, you'll have a tough time understanding anything else I have to say about OS's.
I understand perfectly what Linux is.

I know Linux is a open source operating System (OS), which lets you customize your code freely however you want and to share that code freely with people all over the Earth, customize the kernel, etc.

I understand because of the open sourceness of Linux you can do a lot of stuff with Linux, but this open source aspect is not for every single person on Earth. Not every single person on Earth knows how to program, not every single person on Earth cares to have a fully customizable Operating System (OS), they just want one that just works out of the bot, not every single person on Earth likes products that are free, because most people like to pay for their products because they feel like they own the product, they feel like the people who created that product deserves money, etc I can go on and on.
Post edited March 18, 2015 by Johnathanamz
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Johnathanamz: Stop being a free loader for once and try Windows 10 preview builds or try it when it fully releases in the summer of this year or around October 2015 or November 2015.
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hummer010: The "free" with Linux has nothing to do with money. Until you understand that, you'll have a tough time understanding anything else I have to say about OS's.
Such people don't care about freedom (of computing). Otherwise why would they support lock-in?
Post edited March 18, 2015 by shmerl
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shmerl: Nah, Steam doesn't care to inform you about it before buying. A good reason not to use it at all, even though some games can happen not to require Steamworks to run.
I got the game on a good discount like early 2014, that was back when I still used Steam and Win. I was more interested in how games are being DRM'ed on Linux with Steam than the game itself :P

On the Windows topic:

I agree with your shmerl, ever since I switched to Linux 6 months ago I can't see myself going back to Windows either. There's just too much freedom and customization options, it feels like home for me ;)
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hummer010: The "free" with Linux has nothing to do with money. Until you understand that, you'll have a tough time understanding anything else I have to say about OS's.
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Johnathanamz: I understand perfectly what Linux is.

I know Linux is a open source operating System (OS), which lets you customize your code freely however you want and to share that code freely with people all over the Earth, customize the kernel, etc.

I understand because of the open sourceness of Linux you can do a lot of stuff with Linux, but this open source aspect is not for every single person on Earth. Not every single person on Earth knows how to program, not every single person on Earth cares to have a fully customizable Operating System (OS), they just want one that just works out of the bot, not every single person on Earth likes products that are free, because most people like to pay for their products because they feel like they own the product, they feel like the people who created that product deserves money, etc I can go on and on.
Correct. Linux is not for everyone. Neither is windows. I don't like windows. I'm not a programmer, but I still appreciate the freedom Linux provides. I've got complete control over what software is installed on my system, and what isn't installed. I also appreciate the fact that I'm free to install Linux on any and all of systems as I see fit with no licensing or legal restrictions.

You can preach about how great windows 10 is, but to me, it still looks like a bloated, drm'd, horribly restricted operating system.
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shmerl: Nah, Steam doesn't care to inform you about it before buying. A good reason not to use it at all, even though some games can happen not to require Steamworks to run.
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Ganni1987: I got the game on a good discount like early 2014, that was back when I still used Steam and Win. I was more interested in how games are being DRM'ed on Linux with Steam than the game itself :P

On the Windows topic:

I agree with your shmerl, ever since I switched to Linux 6 months ago I can't see myself going back to Windows either. There's just too much freedom and customization options, it feels like home for me ;)
It feels like home to you because you like customizations, not every single person on Earth really cares about that as long as they got something that just works right out of the box.
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Johnathanamz: I understand perfectly what Linux is.

I know Linux is a open source operating System (OS), which lets you customize your code freely however you want and to share that code freely with people all over the Earth, customize the kernel, etc.

I understand because of the open sourceness of Linux you can do a lot of stuff with Linux, but this open source aspect is not for every single person on Earth. Not every single person on Earth knows how to program, not every single person on Earth cares to have a fully customizable Operating System (OS), they just want one that just works out of the bot, not every single person on Earth likes products that are free, because most people like to pay for their products because they feel like they own the product, they feel like the people who created that product deserves money, etc I can go on and on.
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hummer010: Correct. Linux is not for everyone. Neither is windows. I don't like windows. I'm not a programmer, but I still appreciate the freedom Linux provides. I've got complete control over what software is installed on my system, and what isn't installed. I also appreciate the fact that I'm free to install Linux on any and all of systems as I see fit with no licensing or legal restrictions.

You can preach about how great windows 10 is, but to me, it still looks like a bloated, drm'd, horribly restricted operating system.
Yeah keep calling Windows a horribly restricted Operating System (OS) which it is not. The bloatness is gonna go away in Windows 10. The Digital Rights Management (DRM) is not that bad on Windows.

Windows updates are very good and the Administrator controls are very good also.
Post edited March 18, 2015 by Johnathanamz
Thank you for the links, though I was mostly wondering about the experts that say it won't have any edge over it, and whether they were saying DX12 won't have any edge over Vulkan or Vulkan won't have any edge over DX12.

And I do find the following worrying though
Why use SPIR?

Without SPIR:
• Vendors shipping source
- Risk IP leakage

With SPIR:
• Ship a single binary
- Requires tools to decipher; protecting IP
But I do assume we are talking about closed source projects, so source wouldn't be available either way.
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Johnathanamz: What video game developers complain about DirectX?
All, who actually have some clue. For example Dan Baker of Oxide games, speaking about the future of graphics APIs (literally predicting Vulkan). And he does know what he is saying, he actually is one of the designers of DirectX who worked on DX9, DX10 and HLSL:

Oxide has a strong interest in supporting platforms beyond Windows. Our hope is that Mantle be a call to arms to bring an industrial-strength API to such platforms as SteamOS, Linux, Android and MacOS. The biggest problem for us moving to other platforms is the relative weakness of the graphics software... from a business standpoint, it makes little sense to rely on Microsoft doing the right thing.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-gdc-preview-windows-10-vs-steam-os

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JMich: Thank you for the links, though I was mostly wondering about the experts that say it won't have any edge over it, and whether they were saying DX12 won't have any edge over Vulkan or Vulkan won't have any edge over DX12.

And I do find the following worrying though

Why use SPIR?

Without SPIR:
• Vendors shipping source
- Risk IP leakage

With SPIR:
• Ship a single binary
- Requires tools to decipher; protecting IP
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JMich: But I do assume we are talking about closed source projects, so source wouldn't be available either way.
SPIR-V uses bytecode as intermediary notation. Similar to how LLVM works. They are talking about proprietary drivers, not about proprietary compilers. Compilers for shading language will be open, that's the main point.

About DX12 and Vulkan comparability, see http://www.pcworld.com/article/2891613/meet-vulkan-the-powerful-platform-agnostic-gaming-tech-taking-aim-at-directx-12.html
Post edited March 18, 2015 by shmerl
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Johnathanamz: What video game developers complain about DirectX?
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shmerl: All, who actually have some clue. For example Dan Baker of Oxide games, speaking about the future of graphics APIs (literally predicting Vulkan). And he does know what he is saying, he actually is one of the designers of DirectX who worked on DX9, DX10 and HLSL:

Oxide has a strong interest in supporting platforms beyond Windows. Our hope is that Mantle be a call to arms to bring an industrial-strength API to such platforms as SteamOS, Linux, Android and MacOS. The biggest problem for us moving to other platforms is the relative weakness of the graphics software... from a business standpoint, it makes little sense to rely on Microsoft doing the right thing.
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shmerl: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-gdc-preview-windows-10-vs-steam-os

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JMich: Thank you for the links, though I was mostly wondering about the experts that say it won't have any edge over it, and whether they were saying DX12 won't have any edge over Vulkan or Vulkan won't have any edge over DX12.

And I do find the following worrying though

But I do assume we are talking about closed source projects, so source wouldn't be available either way.
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shmerl: SPIR-V uses bytecode as intermediary notation. Similar to how LLVM works. They are talking about proprietary drivers, not about proprietary compilers. Compilers for shading language will be open, that's the main point.
Sigh. We all know already Oxide will support other systems like Linux, Android, MacOS, and SteamOS. We all know their Nitrous video game engine will support Vulkan.

It does not change the fact that their Nitrous video game engine is also going to support DirectX 12 and Windows 10.

What part of this do you not understand? That there will still be DirectX 12 support.
You are linking to the equivalent of EA explaining why Origin will be the best Digital Distributor out there. Dingman is mostly telling us what he's been told, not what he experienced.

Either way, it's good to see Vulkan getting attention, and I do hope that it will meet expectations.
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Johnathanamz: Sigh. We all know already Oxide will support other systems like Linux, Android, MacOS, and SteamOS
It's not about what we know. It's about what he said. No one argues with what he said: from a business standpoint, it makes little sense to rely on Microsoft doing the right thing.

Because developers unlike you actually understand that lock-in is bad.

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JMich: You are linking to the equivalent of EA explaining why Origin will be the best Digital Distributor out there. Dingman is mostly telling us what he's been told, not what he experienced.

Either way, it's good to see Vulkan getting attention, and I do hope that it will meet expectations.
I doubt you can get more detailed evaluation now. Wait until both APIs and SDKs are published.
Post edited March 18, 2015 by shmerl
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Johnathanamz: Yeah keep calling Windows a horribly restricted Operating System (OS) which it is not.
How is it not? Can you install it on more than one system? No. Can you remove internet explorer? No. Can you roll your own kernel to natively support multiple filesystem's like HFS? No. I can go on and on talking about restrictions.

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Johnathanamz: The Digital Rights Management (DRM) is not that bad on Windows.
Not bad is significantly worse than non existent.

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Johnathanamz: Windows updates are very good.
No they aren't. Pretty much every Linux package manager handles updates better than windows updates.
Post edited March 18, 2015 by hummer010
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Johnathanamz: The Digital Rights Management (DRM) is not that bad on Windows.
And Linux has no DRM at all. No DRM is "not bad". All of it is bad. And here are security experts for you:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/drm_in_windows_1.html
Post edited March 18, 2015 by shmerl
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Johnathanamz: Sigh. We all know already Oxide will support other systems like Linux, Android, MacOS, and SteamOS
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shmerl: It's not about what we know. It's about what he said. No one argues with what he said: from a business standpoint, it makes little sense to rely on Microsoft doing the right thing.

Because developers unlike you actually understand that lock-in is bad.

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JMich: You are linking to the equivalent of EA explaining why Origin will be the best Digital Distributor out there. Dingman is mostly telling us what he's been told, not what he experienced.

Either way, it's good to see Vulkan getting attention, and I do hope that it will meet expectations.
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shmerl: I doubt you can get more detailed evaluation now. Wait until both APIs and SDKs are published.
Dude whatever you just hate Microsoft.

I am using Unreal Engine 4, the free version of CryEngine before it went the $10 dollars (USD) monthly subscription way, etc.

I enjoy Unreal Engine 4 and CryEngine a whole lot they are fun video game engines to develop on.

So I know what lock-ins are, but I like DirectX.

If I ever release a video game developed on Unreal Engine 4 or CryEngine it will be released for sale on Windows only.
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Johnathanamz: Yeah keep calling Windows a horribly restricted Operating System (OS) which it is not.
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hummer010: How is it not? Can you install it on more than one system? No. Can you remove internet explorer? No. Can you roll your own kernel to natively support multiple filesystem's like HFS? No. I can go on and on talking about restrictions.

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Johnathanamz: The Digital Rights Management (DRM) is not that bad on Windows.
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hummer010: Not bad is significantly worse than non existent.

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Johnathanamz: Windows updates are very good.
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hummer010: No they aren't. Pretty much every Linux package manager handles updates better than windows updates.
You must not of tried harder I was able to instal Windows on more than 1 PC. As long as it was my own Personal Computer (PC), yes I know PC stands for Personal Computer but the way I explained it as in for my own use.

Windows is not bad at all. Stop telling people lies.

Again you just hate Microsoft and Windows.

Lots of arguing today over this, it's making me get bored.
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Johnathanamz: The Digital Rights Management (DRM) is not that bad on Windows.
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shmerl: And Linux has no DRM at all. No DRM is "not bad". All of it is bad. And here are security experts for you:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/drm_in_windows_1.html
The Digital Rights Management (DRM) that Windows has is not bad. Windows Vista is stable now. Minus there being no security updates soon.

I still use Windows XP and it's security updates ended in 2014. Does it bother me? No. Why? Because I am careful.

Just stop it already Windows is not bad.
Post edited March 18, 2015 by Johnathanamz