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InEffect: RP/dw/Dueling swords for RedCope

Race: Aasimar(Musetouched)

Alignment: LE(I just feel it’s fitting. Any non-neutral will do, also LE is the best for kingdom management stuff)

Stats:
Str: 10
Dex: 19 > 24
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Final Build: Rogue* 4/Fighter(Aldori Defender) 10/Slayer(Spawn Slayer) 6
*Can be thug if you have someone else to dazzle. Enemies running around are not always fun.

Main skills: Mobility 3, Persuasion (Max), Trickery(18), Perception(Max)
Suggested secondary skills: Athletics 1+, Stealth 1+

Lvl 1: Rogue - Dodge
Lvl 2: Rogue - Combat Trick > Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 3: Rogue - Crane Style // Finesse Training: Dueling Sword
Lvl 4: Rogue - Combat Trick > Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 5: Fighter - Dazzling Display // Outflank
Lvl 6: Fighter - Crane Wing
Lvl 7: Fighter - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 8: Fighter - Double Slice
Lvl 9: Fighter - Shatter Defenses // Heavy Blades
Lvl 10: Fighter
Lvl 11: Fighter - Improved Critical: Dueling Sword
Lvl 12: Fighter
Lvl 13: Fighter - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting // Effortless Dual-Wielding // Heavy Blades
Lvl 14: Slayer
Lvl 15: Slayer - Wings // Combat Trick > Crane Riposte
Lvl 16: Slayer
Lvl 17: Slayer - Weapon Focus: Dueling Sword // Combat Trick > GWF: Dueling Sword
Lvl 18: Slayer
Lvl 19: Slayer - Accomplished Sneak Attacker // Combat Trick > Weapon Specialization
Lvl 20: Fighter

Gear: Bloodhound+Arcane enforcer, Oppressor, Paragon of Defenders, Gyronna amulet, Stat belt, Gloves of valor, Bracers of deflection, Castigator/Absolver cloak, Opportunist’s Boots, Dreamer ring, Ring of Circumstances(+Dex,+AC,+Skills,+Speed)

Pretty straight-forward build. Nothing too unusual about it. Finish prologue in 30 days to get +2 Dueling Sword. Use dueling sword+light weapon(arcane Protector would work nicely) till lvl 13.

Sinse unspecified I assumed you have all DLC’s.
I wanted to give this build a try on my second playthrough but it seems impossible to pull off dazzling display at level 5 without weapon focus?
Post edited June 14, 2021 by Kunzzi
think this one relied on some old bugs and it itself is old, so I can't remember anything about it.

Lvl 1: Rogue - Dodge
Lvl 2: Rogue - Combat Trick > Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 3: Rogue - Crane Style // Finesse Training: Dueling Sword
Lvl 4: Rogue - Combat Trick > WF: Dueling sword
Lvl 5: Fighter - Two-Weapon Fighting // Dazzling Display
Lvl 6: Fighter - Crane Wing
Lvl 7: Fighter - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 8: Fighter - Outflank
Lvl 9: Fighter - Shatter Defenses // Heavy Blades
Lvl 10: Fighter
Lvl 11: Fighter - Wings
Lvl 12: Fighter
Lvl 13: Fighter - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting // Effortless Dual-Wielding // Heavy Blades
Lvl 14: Slayer
Lvl 15: Slayer - Improved Critical: Dueling Sword // Combat Trick > Crane Riposte
Lvl 16: Slayer
Lvl 17: Slayer - Double Slice // Combat Trick > GWF: Dueling Sword
Lvl 18: Slayer
Lvl 19: Slayer - Accomplished Sneak Attacker // Combat Trick > Weapon Specialization
Lvl 20: Fighter

something like that would work.
Post edited June 15, 2021 by InEffect
Hello again In Effect

Unrelated to specific builds but related to my previous questions:
I'm at Armag's Tomb right before the big Intimidate check that rewards a ton of exp. I've been playing with shared exp since the start. My question is:
I have all the DLC, been doing every quest I come across and trying to get every single skill check I can (I admit to save scum). Will I be able to get to level 20 if I keep playing with shared exp on (obviously doing every quest, killing every monster and completing every DLC) or do I necessarily need to manipulate the shared exp for those big checks to get there? When do my companions leave and come back to take advantage of the exp catching up?
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PedroLedic: Hello again In Effect

Unrelated to specific builds but related to my previous questions:
I'm at Armag's Tomb right before the big Intimidate check that rewards a ton of exp. I've been playing with shared exp since the start. My question is:
I have all the DLC, been doing every quest I come across and trying to get every single skill check I can (I admit to save scum). Will I be able to get to level 20 if I keep playing with shared exp on (obviously doing every quest, killing every monster and completing every DLC) or do I necessarily need to manipulate the shared exp for those big checks to get there? When do my companions leave and come back to take advantage of the exp catching up?
If you pass and share every bit of high-persuasion checks you will reach 20 somewhere in the final stretch. Details are iffy since it depends on random encounters and some such a bit. if you do abuse persuasion exp, you will hit 20 by pitax. and everyone will be bumped to your level in the HatEoT
Post edited June 27, 2021 by InEffect
Two more questions:

Do Sword Saint's Lethal Focus apply to any time I can deny an enemy his Dex to AC? For example: if I use Prescient Strike do I get my INT to damage or does the enemy actually have to count as flat-footed?

Any way to cast Sense Vitals, Angelic Aspect and Legendary Proportions on s Sword Saint, since they don't get Greater Spell Access and level 7 spells?
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PedroLedic: Two more questions:

Do Sword Saint's Lethal Focus apply to any time I can deny an enemy his Dex to AC? For example: if I use Prescient Strike do I get my INT to damage or does the enemy actually have to count as flat-footed?

Any way to cast Sense Vitals, Angelic Aspect and Legendary Proportions on s Sword Saint, since they don't get Greater Spell Access and level 7 spells?
pretty sure anything that denies dex works, although the main sources are shatter defenses and improved inivisibility.
The way to cast those is to bring a full arcane caster with you, which you kidna want either way. Alchemists and some clerics can also do it. As to sense vitals and angelic - you don't need either of them. The former you don't need because saint pushes around 1200 damage per round by the endgame and the latter you don't need cause you have axiomatic weapon from weapon enchant and can enchant your +3 weapon to +5 to bypass most DR.
Post edited June 28, 2021 by InEffect
Oh my bad. I thought Legendary proportions was a personal target cast. That made my question pretty stupid. ;)

Also what do you think about a variable of your Saint Vivi build where I pick aasimar just as you did and start with

STR 20 > 24
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 15 > 16
WIS 7
CHA 12

Would be mainly trading 2 AC, 2 persuasion, 1 fortitude and 20 HP for 1 AB and 1,5 damage per hit (not counting crits ofc). Think that's too much of a trade off?

Oh and what do you think about Arcane Strike and Power Attack on Saint?
Arcane Strike seems like a good spare feat to function as a poor cousin to your arcane pool (thus saving it for more important enemies) and if you get the spare swift action it's +4 damage to that round, right?
Power Attack seems like a good idea on lower dificulties right?
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PedroLedic: Oh my bad. I thought Legendary proportions was a personal target cast. That made my question pretty stupid. ;)

Also what do you think about a variable of your Saint Vivi build where I pick aasimar just as you did and start with

STR 20 > 24
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 15 > 16
WIS 7
CHA 12

Would be mainly trading 2 AC, 2 persuasion, 1 fortitude and 20 HP for 1 AB and 1,5 damage per hit (not counting crits ofc). Think that's too much of a trade off?

Oh and what do you think about Arcane Strike and Power Attack on Saint?
Arcane Strike seems like a good spare feat to function as a poor cousin to your arcane pool (thus saving it for more important enemies) and if you get the spare swift action it's +4 damage to that round, right?
Power Attack seems like a good idea on lower dificulties right?
there isn't any real reason to start with 20 str. Also don't ever cut con under 12, cause that's oneshot territory instead of having a tine bit of health left(unfair damage, but is somewhat true below that too).
The real thing you trade is early AC ramp that human feats allow. and this spread also cuts cha way too low. With +2 bonus there is no feasible reason to have it under 16.
If you want to go aasimar, the best spread is 18/14/12/15/7/16.
What about these?
Oh and what do you think about Arcane Strike and Power Attack on Saint?
Arcane Strike seems like a good spare feat to function as a poor cousin to your arcane pool (thus saving it for more important enemies) and if you get the spare swift action it's +4 damage to that round, right?
Power Attack seems like a good idea on lower dificulties right?
Hi InEffect,

i love the Slayer, which is why i keep testing it in some combinations.

my current attempt (no minmaxing):

Race: Human
Strength 10
Dexterity (17+2)+5
Constitution 12
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 16

Deliverer 12 / Thug 4 / Scaled Fist 1 / pure Paladin 3 or Divine Guardian 3

L1 S1 - exotic weapon Falcata / weapon focus Falcata (+ target study 1)
L2 T1 - (+sa1)
L3 T2 - slashing grace Falcata
L4 T3 - weapon finesse training dagger
L5 T4 - crane style / RT: outflank (+sa2)
L6 S2
L7 S3 - crane wing (+ sa3)
L8 S4 - RT: menacing dazzling display
L9 S5 - crane riposte (+ target study 2)
L10 S6 - RT: menacing shattering defense (+ sa4)
L11 S7 - imp. critical falcata (+ fast study)
L12 S8 - combat reflexes
L13 S9 - seize the moment
L14 S10 - (+ divine anathema, + target study 3)
L15 SF1 - hammer the gap / impr. initiative
L16 S11
L17 S12 - accomplished sneak attacker / RT: menacing dreadful carnage (+ sa5)
L18 P1 (+ smite evil)
L19 P2 - iron will
L20 P3

Skills: Mobility / Tricks / Stealth / Perception / Persuasion

The three paladin levels are for more defense, more offense would be three more slayer levels. He plays surprisingly well in act 1 on hard. From act 2 on he needs love from Val and Linzy. Up to level 9-10 I'm still on leather armor, later bracers of armor. Without equipment I get to fortitude 18, reflexes 25, will 13 with an initiative of 11. My problem is that the Scaled Fist comes quite late, but I don't know when to position it better without delaying important feats. Same with the Paladin, but dreadful carnage only at L20 is way too late for me. Do you have a tip?

Thanks in advance
Post edited July 27, 2021 by thinman78
@InEffect,

I am hoping you'll consider helping me out, even with Wrath so close to release.

I would love to see your take on an Elven EK with an ECB and Stag animal companion. I know it's not the most optimal combo, but I'd like it to be as effective as possible in melee and magic, and able to pass all baron-only skill checks. I have all DLC and don't mind min/maxing. Here is what I've come up with so far:

Elf, LG

Str: 14
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

Lvl 1: Pal (DH) - Prc. Shot, Dodge
Lvl 2: Mnk (SF) - IUS, Crane Style
Lvl 3: Pal - WpnFoc (ECB)
Lvl 4: Rog - WpnFin, +1 Dex
Lvl 5: Sor (Sylvan) - PBS (from Sor bonus feat), Boon Companion
Lvl 6: Sor
Lvl 7: Sor - Outflank
Lvl 8: Sor - +1 Cha
Lvl 9: Sor - Accomplished S.A.
Lvl 10: Sor
Lvl 11: EK - Blind Fight, Spell Pen
Lvl 12: EK - +1 Cha
Lvl 13: EK - Imp. Crit.
Lvl 14: EK
Lvl 15: EK - WpnSpec (ECB), Spell Foc (Evoc)
Lvl 16: EK - +1 Cha
Lvl 17: EK - Meta(Emp or Extend or Reach)
Lvl 18: EK
Lvl 19: EK - Crit. Foc., Meta(Emp or Extend or Reach)
Lvl 20: EK - +1 Cha

If I can get the same concept (Elven magic warrior with ECB & Stag animal comp) without EK, or some other aspect of the build, that's fine too.

If you're willing, please let me know what you think, and hw I can improve it. Thanks!
Post edited August 25, 2021 by isdestroyer
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isdestroyer: I would love to see your take on an Elven EK with an ECB and Stag animal companion. I know it's not the most optimal combo, but I'd like it to be as effective as possible in melee and magic, and able to pass all baron-only skill checks.
Generally speaking, you have to specialize in this game if you play at difficulties where effectiveness matter at all. What you are proposing is a melee-viable 3/4 caster which has usable animal companion and load of skills. So basically, your character should be able to do everything in this game except for archery. That's just cannot be done unless you lower difficulty so you don't care about how effective your build is. However, there is nothing wrong with that.

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isdestroyer: Here is what I've come up with so far:
1) Even though, unlike in PnP, Sylvan Sorc get full animal companion progression (unless the devs fixed it) you effective druid level will max at 10, as You took 6 level of Sorc only. At this point, the only benefit of your Elk will be additional weight it carries.
2) with such low Charisma your spell DC would be bad anyway, I don't see a point at taking Spell Focus or Empower.
3) your BAB will be 15. One more, and you would get another attack in a full attack round.
4) Dexterity is harder to bump than Strength. As you only take one level of Rogue instead of three or taking Fencing Grace, you would use DEX for Attack rolls and STR for Damage rolls. Just go for STR.
5) You only need Wisdom and Intelligence for skill checks. They are dumpable.
6) Spell Penetration is not necessary in Kingmaker, enemies rarely have spell resistance.
7) If you go for melee character, Divine Hunter makes little sense.


In the end, either go for a Druid build (Tripping Balls, maybe), change bloodline (use STR melee sorc build), don't go to melee or lower difficulty.
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isdestroyer: I would love to see your take on an Elven EK with an ECB and Stag animal companion. I know it's not the most optimal combo, but I'd like it to be as effective as possible in melee and magic, and able to pass all baron-only skill checks.
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heliar: Generally speaking, you have to specialize in this game if you play at difficulties where effectiveness matter at all. What you are proposing is a melee-viable 3/4 caster which has usable animal companion and load of skills. So basically, your character should be able to do everything in this game except for archery. That's just cannot be done unless you lower difficulty so you don't care about how effective your build is. However, there is nothing wrong with that.

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isdestroyer: Here is what I've come up with so far:
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heliar: 1) Even though, unlike in PnP, Sylvan Sorc get full animal companion progression (unless the devs fixed it) you effective druid level will max at 10, as You took 6 level of Sorc only. At this point, the only benefit of your Elk will be additional weight it carries.
2) with such low Charisma your spell DC would be bad anyway, I don't see a point at taking Spell Focus or Empower.
3) your BAB will be 15. One more, and you would get another attack in a full attack round.
4) Dexterity is harder to bump than Strength. As you only take one level of Rogue instead of three or taking Fencing Grace, you would use DEX for Attack rolls and STR for Damage rolls. Just go for STR.
5) You only need Wisdom and Intelligence for skill checks. They are dumpable.
6) Spell Penetration is not necessary in Kingmaker, enemies rarely have spell resistance.
7) If you go for melee character, Divine Hunter makes little sense.

In the end, either go for a Druid build (Tripping Balls, maybe), change bloodline (use STR melee sorc build), don't go to melee or lower difficulty.
Yeah, the companion effectiveness is one of the issues I was concerned with. I'm considering dropping the EK part, as the main reason to take it (spell crit) does too little for the build to justify 10 levels.

In regards to difficulty, I play on normal. I don't have the interest to try anything harder, and it makes build experimentation easier.

For the stats, I hate taking negative modifiers if I can help it. Besides, there are any number of Cha boosting items throughout the game.

I'll have to take your word for it on Spell Pen. I thought most of the end game mobs have SR.

Divine Hunter is there for the free Precise Shot feat. Helps with ranged spells. Plus, it makes the early game slightly easier if I don't have to worry about running into melee.

I am thinking of going with Sacred huntsmaster Inquisitor instead of EK route. I could throw a level of bard in for DD levels. But I'm still really wanting that arcane Elf Lord vibe like in AD&D. I don't know, I'm going to run it through the rogue-like dungeon and see how it fares, first.
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isdestroyer: Divine Hunter is there for the free Precise Shot feat. Helps with ranged spells. Plus, it makes the early game slightly easier if I don't have to worry about running into melee.
There's no reason for melee character to cast rays, and vice versa. You character won't be good at everything.

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isdestroyer: I'm considering dropping the EK part, as the main reason to take it (spell crit) does too little for the build to justify 10 levels.
The main reason to take EK is that it is a full BAB class with almost full spell progression. The only full BAB class with almost full spell progression.

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isdestroyer: Besides, there are any number of Cha boosting items throughout the game.
Bonuses of the same type don't stack, you could get max +8 in the endgame unless you wear Amulet of Dying Wisdom, which will cripple you in melee.
Sorry if this was asked before. Are there any good Archer builds for WotR?