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InEffect: take trip vivisectionist maybe? opportunist is better than seize the moment anyways. https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post230
thing is a tank, has reach and as such fills all the requirements. including not clogging frontline. Can make use of LN robe if you have LG one occupied.
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rickbuzz: Hmm does bite force you into close range though? That's kind of what I want to avoid with this character, though tripping is always fun, supposing you can get the tripping cloak in the roguelike dungeon (not the version of the dungeon for the main campaign, which also means LG robes aren't a consideration).

What about some ideas that don't use Vivi as the primary class?
Sorc5/Scaled1/DD4/EK10 with whatever two-hander you fancy, unless they'd fix crane wing by release.
Post edited June 01, 2019 by InEffect
Guess I'm looking for a damage focused sorcerer build. Bloodlines don't really matter to me, I use the eldritch arcana mod., I would prefer to have some fun aoes to mess with and not just all rays if possible. Difficulty is normal and the group is lvl 9 atm.
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Twilight5007: Guess I'm looking for a damage focused sorcerer build. Bloodlines don't really matter to me, I use the eldritch arcana mod., I would prefer to have some fun aoes to mess with and not just all rays if possible. Difficulty is normal and the group is lvl 9 atm.
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post31
I do not use EA as arcane classes are broken enough already. Nor any other balance-changing mod, so those are not supported. Feel free to change stuff as you see fit for it.
Post edited June 01, 2019 by InEffect
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InEffect: there are 2 feats for wands for magus. One of those allows to use your casting stat instead the min one, the other allows to use those with spell combat. Bad news are there is no way to craft wands in the game and you can't bring CL to your level as you would with scroll savant.
Best bet would be going max Cha Scion that you already kinda want to do and hoping you get good wands from the artisan(that also has problems as you are better off taking rods from her). Overall, not worth it, but doable.
Maybe max int base Magus would work too as he could grab profane staff from varn DLC to ramp his wand DC's bit higher.
Thanks and yeahh its sad.. compared to the "niche" builds like scroll savant, wands didn't even seem to get some love/support.

Now i'm wondering how would I go building the best tank w/ good touch def and isn't armorless (heavy armor + tower shield preferred).

How would I proceed w/ this?(probably w/ high dex??) I just got sick of seeing all this monk/duelist robe wearing "tanks". I kind of want a "traditional" tank in an mmo/rp sense that they wear heavy armor, go ahead the party first, are immovable (high saves) and the sight of them in their ironclad armor generates threat that either taunts enemies or makes them flee(intimidating).

Honestly it doesnt make sense (to me) that these armorless/dodgy tanks are doing way better than your average "armored to the teeth" guy but I guess that's how the devs want it. Kind of reminds me of the usual STR vs DEX meme.
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Cirnovant: Thanks and yeahh its sad.. compared to the "niche" builds like scroll savant, wands didn't even seem to get some love/support.

Now i'm wondering how would I go building the best tank w/ good touch def and isn't armorless (heavy armor + tower shield preferred).

How would I proceed w/ this?(probably w/ high dex??) I just got sick of seeing all this monk/duelist robe wearing "tanks". I kind of want a "traditional" tank in an mmo/rp sense that they wear heavy armor, go ahead the party first, are immovable (high saves) and the sight of them in their ironclad armor generates threat that either taunts enemies or makes them flee(intimidating).

Honestly it doesnt make sense (to me) that these armorless/dodgy tanks are doing way better than your average "armored to the teeth" guy but I guess that's how the devs want it. Kind of reminds me of the usual STR vs DEX meme.
mithral heavy armor, crane wing, TSS(if wing won't get fixed in EE), stalwart. CE, fighter extra dex to armor... It's pretty feasible to build a 50touch fighter, it's just gonna be a whole lot harder.
Post edited June 01, 2019 by InEffect
Not sure this is feasible, but something along the lines of Vivi 2 (Feral Mutagen)/Invuln Rager 2 (Animal Fury)/ Eld Scion 1 (Electric Dragon for Shocking Grasp Synergy, perhaps?)/DD 4 for all the bites you could ever want as a Motherless Tiefling?

Obviously doesn't have to have those classes, so long as I'm maximizing the amount of bites I can get while maintaining a character that doesn't die instantly while abusing cloak.
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jintegrity: Not sure this is feasible, but something along the lines of Vivi 2 (Feral Mutagen)/Invuln Rager 2 (Animal Fury)/ Eld Scion 1 (Electric Dragon for Shocking Grasp Synergy, perhaps?)/DD 4 for all the bites you could ever want as a Motherless Tiefling?

Obviously doesn't have to have those classes, so long as I'm maximizing the amount of bites I can get while maintaining a character that doesn't die instantly while abusing cloak.
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post230
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jintegrity: Not sure this is feasible, but something along the lines of Vivi 2 (Feral Mutagen)/Invuln Rager 2 (Animal Fury)/ Eld Scion 1 (Electric Dragon for Shocking Grasp Synergy, perhaps?)/DD 4 for all the bites you could ever want as a Motherless Tiefling?

Obviously doesn't have to have those classes, so long as I'm maximizing the amount of bites I can get while maintaining a character that doesn't die instantly while abusing cloak.
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InEffect: https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post230
- so trying to get 4 bites isn't worth it? Was wondering, if instead of going the weapon route, if there was a way to stack Sneak Attack dice, while maintaining enough AB to reliably hit things, to make it a viable alternative.
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jintegrity: - so trying to get 4 bites isn't worth it? Was wondering, if instead of going the weapon route, if there was a way to stack Sneak Attack dice, while maintaining enough AB to reliably hit things, to make it a viable alternative.
Only source of 4th bite would be barb and that'd involve a whole lot of alignment shifting. And you wouldn't be able to fit in V12, so goodbye greater mutagen. and feats. And you don't even need barb to begin with as you go archaeologist for UD.
Hi there—love this thread and your guide. Currently running your Saint Vivisector as my first attempt to get the “secret ending”, and using an evil version of your blind run scion as my first evil playthrough.

I have a request: I’d like to make a character that uses reach weapons (mainly fauchard, but would be nice to able to use glaives in the mid game to be flexible while waiting for RNG and the artisans to cooperate), and that has at least some active spells or abilities that I can micro during combat so it’s not just auto attacks and AoOs. The goal is to have someone who’s decently efficient at clearing trash mobs but can power up a big alpha strike or buff up to smack down a Big Bad if need be. For flavor, it might be nice to have him have decent ac without armor to kinda look like the aasimar portrait with the polearm, but that’s not a necessity.

My initial thoughts were 1) cleric with a fighter dip for proficiencies (maybe even a main char variation of your Jaethal build), 2)sword saint that doesn’t use spell combat and maybe uses some monk levels for ac, but loses the flexibility of weapon type choices or 3) paladin with scaled fist dip.

Would love your thoughts on which way to go.
Reach/Spells/Unarmored/Aasimar for bochnerd

Race: Aasimar(Angelkin)

Alignment: LG

Stats:
Str: 18 > 22
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 7
Cha: 17 > 18 @20

Final Build: Sorcerer 5/Monk(Scaled Fist) 1/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10

Main skills: Mobility 3, Persuasion (Max), Knowledge(Arcana) 5
Suggested secondary skills: UMD

Detailed leveling breakdown:
Lvl 1: Monk - Martial Weapon Proficiency // Crane Style
Lvl 2: Sorcerer - Copper // Extend Spell
Lvl 3: Sorcerer - Weapon Focus: Glaive(although greataxe would be so much better)
Lvl 4: Sorcerer
Lvl 5: Sorcerer - Dazzling Display
Lvl 6: Dragon Disciple
Lvl 7: Dragon Disciple - Outflank // Intimidating Prowess
Lvl 8: Dragon Disciple
Lvl 9: Dragon Disciple - Shatter Defenses
Lvl 10: Eldritch Knight - Dodge
Lvl 11: Eldritch Knight - Crane Wing
Lvl 12: Eldritch Knight
Lvl 13: Eldritch Knight - Wings
Lvl 14: Eldritch Knight - Improved Critical: Glaive
Lvl 15: Eldritch Knight - Crane Riposte
Lvl 16: Eldritch Knight
Lvl 17: Eldritch Knight - Greater Weapon Focus: Glaive
Lvl 18: Eldritch Knight - Arcane Strike
Lvl 19: Eldritch Knight - Weapon Specialization: Glaive
Lvl 20: Sorcerer

Spells:
Lvl 1: Shield, Enlarge Person, True Strike, Corrosive Touch, Vanish
Lvl 2: Mirror Image, Cat’s Grace, Glitterdust, Sense Vitals, Bear’s Endurance
Lvl 3: Haste, Displacement, Resist Energy(Communal), Vampiric Touch
Lvl 4: Animate Dead, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Protection from Energy(Communal)
Lvl 5: Geniekind, Angelic Aspect, Echolocation, Vampiric Shadow Shield
Lvl 6: Heroism(Greater), Transformation, Dispel Magic(Greater)
Lvl 7: Waves of Exhaustion, Legendary Proportions, Firebrand
Lvl 8: Seamantle, Frightful Aspect

Gear: Monk robes, Bracers, Ring of circumstances, Weapon

Repurposed my Sor5/M1/DD4/EK10. Should do well enough, although Vanquisher is so much better than Petal. Cast Frightful before legendary or they won't stack.
Post edited June 04, 2019 by InEffect
Thank you! You’d go Glaive over Fauchard? Would that change if EE adds a better fauchard selection?
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bochnerd: Thank you! You’d go Glaive over Fauchard? Would that change if EE adds a better fauchard selection?
I'd go with glaive for the sole reason of lacking an extra feat to spare. If it was human I totally would. Although optimal thing to do is just going greataxes for vanquisher.

And about fauchards: there is serpent prince that is one of the best weapons in the game. Only problem is we'd have to splash for saint to get it without losing much and that'd ruin the tempo completely. We already are taking 3 hits to caster progression along the way. It's not realistic to take another one so early.
Post edited June 04, 2019 by InEffect
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InEffect: Shifter Druid for kreative_katt

Race: Human
We need the feat more than we need some stats

Alignment: LN*
*More on that later

Stats:
Str: 17
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 11
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Final Build: Monk(Traditional) 1/Druid(DotTW) 16/Barbarian(Mad Dog) 1/Fighter 1

Main skills: Mobility 3, Persuasion Max, Perception Max
Suggested secondary skills: You have 36 points spare. Lore Nature is thematic to max and maybe Athletics.

Detailed leveling breakdown:
Lvl 1: Monk - Weapon Focus: Claw // Dazzling Display // Crane Style
Lvl 2: Druid - Animal Companion*
Lvl 3: Druid - Combat Expertise (Need +2 Int item)
Lvl 4: Druid
Lvl 5: Druid - Natural Spell
Lvl 6: Druid
Lvl 7: Druid - Outflank
Lvl 8: Druid
Lvl 9: Druid - Shatter Defenses
Lvl 10: Druid
Lvl 11: Druid - Trip
Lvl 12: Druid
Lvl 13: Druid - Greater Trip
Lvl 14: Druid
Lvl 15: Druid - Persuasive
Lvl 16: Druid
Lvl 17: Druid - Fury’s Fall
Lvl 18: Barbarian
Lvl 19: Barbarian - Blind Fight
Lvl 20: Fighter - Intimidating Prowess

Important Spells:
Lvl 1: Acid Maw, Cure Light Wounds, Firebelly(Good early for swarms)
Lvl 2: Aspect of the Bear, Restoration, Barkskin(Becomes obsolete once you get Legendary)
Lvl 3: Magic Fang(Greater), Spike Growth, Resist Energy(Communal), Delay Poison(Communal)
Lvl 4: Spike Stones, Cape of Wasps, Thorn Body, Protection from Energy(Communal)
Lvl 5: Aspect of the Wolf, Geniekind, Animal Growth
Lvl 6: Tar Pool, Cure Light Wounds(Mass)
Lvl 7: Legendary Proportions, Creeping Doom, Heal
Lvl 8: Seamantle, Frightful Aspect

Gear: To tank you would need: Dreamer Ring, Ring of Circumstances(STR, DEX, WIS, AC) Gyronna Ammy/Amulet of Mighty fists, Absolver/Catigator cloak, +8 hat/belt, +8 Armor Bracers, Bokken Elixir

Alignment first: You will need at least some shifts here. You start as LN and should move to TN. That would technically be enough for the build, but not really. From there you should move to either NG or NE for absolver/castigator cloaks, because those are awesome and rings slots are precious. Shouldn’t be too hard because said cloaks will be sold in the 2nd part of the game by Pitaxan merchants.

Mad Dog is there so you have something extra to ramp your AB. Druids are not exactly spectacular in that department and Shape-shifting won’t cover for that. At least not enough.

Amulet of Mighty Fists and Magic Fang totally do stack. To wear Mighty fists or Gyronna depends on difficulty. On anything, but unfair Gyronna is not needed to break unhittable AC.

Few words about buffing: All buffs we selected do stack on top of animal form, but some of them do not transition from human to animal form. Easiest solution would be to buff in animal form and be a happy panda. Quite literally.

Aspect of the wolf is why we take trip feats. Don’t forget to right-click the trip ability you get from it after casting.

Natural Progression of forms Wolf -> Leopard -> Bear -> Smilodon is pretty much how you want to roll anyways.

Does have dazzling and shatter, Although does prefer someone else to use Dazzling due to average persuasion.

Assumes you do exploit Exp for level 20, but should be ok-ish without.
To use combat expertise or not is up to you. Depends on difficulty and if you need those points of AC to become unhittable at any point.

Skipped Lvl 9 spells as there is literally nothing of interest for us there.

The damage isn't great, but there is nothing that can be done about it.

There you have it. It CAN reach 70 AC for unfair, but Shifter druid is not what I’d realistically play there and he will lose too much AB in the process, but it's possible, I guess.
I am interested in a druid build for unfair mode that you would realistically play so I don't mind it being for solo or team play. I'm fine with it having min/max, being any other race type or whatever. I've seen you mentioning in other forums about druids surviving in unfair mode so I want to try out your build, if you would be so king to share it, that you would realistically play in unfair mode.
Degenerate Druid for Kenny_Smith36

Race: Human
Alignment: LN
Pet: Smilodon

Stats:
Str: 7
Dex: 15
Con: 15
Int: 14
Wis: 19 > 24
Cha: 7

Final Build: Druid(DotTW) 17/Monk(Traditional) 1/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) 2

Main skills: Persuasion (Max), Perception (Max), Trickery (Max), Mobility 3
Suggested secondary skills: UMD and a bit of stealth, lore: nature and lore: religion

Detailed leveling breakdown:
Lvl 1: Druid - Spell Focus: Conjuration // Spell Specialization
Lvl 2: Druid
Lvl 3: Druid - Augment Summoning
Lvl 4: Druid
Lvl 5: Druid - Superior Summoning
Lvl 6: Druid
Lvl 7: Druid - Deceitful
Lvl 8: Druid
Lvl 9: Druid - Spell Focus: Evocation
Lvl 10: Druid
Lvl 11: Druid - Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Lvl 12: Druid
Lvl 13: Druid - Elemental Focus: Fire*
Lvl 14: Alchemist
Lvl 15: Druid - Greater Elemental Focus: Fire
Lvl 16: Druid
Lvl 17: Druid - Dodge
Lvl 18: Druid
Lvl 19: Monk - Crane Style // Crane Wing
Lvl 20: Alchemist - Cognatogen
*or Electricity. Both have merits, Can’t fit in both

Spell Specialization: Latest summon spell till 11(or whatever really. Extra duration is helpful early), 11-13 Sirocco, 13-15 Creeping Doom, 15+ Stormbolts

Important Spells:
Lvl 1: Entangle, Acid Maw, Magic Fang
Lvl 2: Sickening Entanglement, Barkskin
Lvl 3: Spike Growth, Resist Energy(Communal)*, Delay Poison(Communal), Magic Fang(Greater)
Lvl 4: Echolocation, Spike Stones, Protection from Energy(Communal)*, Slowing Mud
Lvl 5: Vinetrap, Cave Fangs, Animal Growth
Lvl 6: Sirocco
Lvl 7: Creeping Doom, Legendary Proportions**
Lvl 8: Stormbolts, Seamantle**, Frightful aspect**
Lvl 9: Elemental Swarm
*Might want to downgrade to regular ones if solo
**Good, but you likely won’t have space for those

Gear: Monk robes or fire/electricity robes, AC gear, ring of circumstances, Stat gear, Profane Ammy from varnhold dlc, rods

Bit about what he actually does: earlygame is mostly summon spam while pet hopefully kills stuff. Once you get ground spells like spike growth you add a degenerate teactics of kiting enemies around those with a pet to your repertoire. Sirocco will add Some Hard CC, which is always good. Come level 13 you get Creeping Doom and real degeneracy kicks in. Sit back, relax and wait for enemies to die.
I am kinda torn between fire and electrical focus. The former kicks sirocco into usable DC’s and the latter is a good damage spell targeting fort. Considering you would likely use strombolts with that +4DC maximize+Empower masterpiece rod, I opted for fire to give yourself a hard CC when you need it.
Monk is taken late as you really only need Touch AC from that investment. Technically can be skipped, but it generally is less pita that way.
Alchemist is there to make all skills class skills and to provide cognatogen for an extra +4 wisdom boost
Don’t forget to convert your spells into summons when you need them.
That’s about it. The apotheosis of degenerate unfair tactics. Solo or a very small party is advised as you want to get to 13 asap.
Don't care about pet losing levels late as pet falls off bit past midgame anyways.
Post edited June 05, 2019 by InEffect