Hahaha, lol@John Boyega not giving a single fuck anymore and putting up BASED tweets and the retards on RetardEra - you know, the fine folks who got our former community manager fired over a tweet - flipping out about it (see attached)!

(That post is still up, by the way. Guess the slavers on RetardEra find nothing objectionable about telling a brutha to "keep his mouth shut and know his place".)

How a work can be interesting, if it doesn't make sense?

Most works are meant to make sense, so the fact that the work doesn't make sense makes it interesting, right?

See the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll for an example of a work that isn't meant to make sense. (Granted, it *does* have a different approach to nonsense than my idea of intentional plot inconsistencies, but it's still the same general idea.) Alternatively, many musical works, particularly what's referred to as "avant garde", don't really make sense if you try to analyze them from a music theory perspective. (Question: What is the first note of John Cage's most famous work?) There's also the works of PDQ Bach, which are meant to be jokes (see The Abduction of Figaro if you want something that's meant to have a story, or his sportscast of the Beethoven 5th for another funny example). If you are familiar with music notation and want a laugh, check out “Faerie’s Aire and Death Waltz (from ‘A Tribute to Zdenko G. Fibich’)”.

As you can see, there are nonsense works out there that are interesting, and sometimes even rather funny.

Luke finds the droid with message.
Luke goes to save the princess.
Luke runs away with the princess from the Death Star.
Luke destroys the Death Star with some convenient emergence of Force powers.

Nothing spectacular either. By your logic.

I think the general plot Anakin's fall was ok. It were details that were stupid - someone should've really help Lucas in writing the particulars.

disco ball

Oh, absolutely. I was just replying to Kai's assertion that Lucas is a good basic outline storyteller, and specific assertion that the prequels had a good basic story outline.

Except "good basic outline" he was referred to was (probably) about how well events of the New Hope (and Original Trilogy) in general fall into Hero's Journey template and all it's associated tropes. In fact Prequel Trilogy falls into this template well too, but it's details with execution that are lacking.

And i'd add to that it quite clearly set's up that the 'Light' side is the good and the 'Dark' side is the bad, and in the biblical sense of Good vs Evil, not 'bad' as in 'bad-cool' etc (and Disney in particular is bad at depicting this).

The Empire is an evil oppressive force in the galaxy and people have a just war in fighting it and standing up to it's oppression. There is a reason the Empire looks and sounds like it does, as it draws on our own earth's historic examples, and in that Star Wars is a cautionary tale about that (multi?) universal struggle against evil, and how it is every good persons duty to fight and resist the tide of evil.

Also the trouble is when you let the illogical run amok in your story-telling, you just create a world that seems it could have been taken from a crazy-persons rantings. Nothing really makes sense anymore, so nothing really matters anymore.
Lucas was infamous for his 'bad dialogue'. Ever since the start Marcia was helping him out on that (in THX 1138 she really didn't like the early draft of the script Lucas had done as it made it impossible to connect to the characters, and she probably was the difference when you compare the dialogue of the Original Trilogy with the Prequels).

And i'm totally going to have to pull you up on the Shakespearean remark! As a classics trained British person, and knowing just how 'trashy' for his time Shakespeare liked to be, nothing Lucas has done even comes close to being able to call it 'Shakespearean' imho. Sure he crafted a good outline for a great tragedy story, but that is about as far as we can realistically go here. Please leave Shakespeare out of the Star Wars discussion ;)

Just go back and look at the Prequel behind the scenes where Lucas is trying to convince everyone that Jar Jar Binks is the key character to the story and how the film hinges around him (he really said this).

If those are not the words of a guy that has clearly 'lost his way' in his art i could eat my hat ;)

Never wrote that. that's your interpretation.

Thor was referring to the visuals of the intial scenes of EPVII and I was underlining that some of those visuals were taken from Nausicaa.

*cough*

It would seem to should get your money back from your "trainer." ;)

The generally academically accepted elements of Shakespearean tragedy...

The Elements of Shakespearean Tragedy:

1. Tragic Hero A main character cursed by fate and possessed of a tragic flaw.

2. A Struggle Between Good and Evil. This struggle can take place as part of the plot or exist within the main character.

3. Hamartia The fatal character flaw of the tragic hero.

4. Tragic Waste. The good being destroyed along with the bad at the resolution of the play. Often played out with the unnecessary loss of life, especially of "good guy" characters.

5. External Conflict. This can be a problem facing the hero as a result of the plot or a "bad guy" character.

6. Internal Conflict. The struggle the hero engages in with his/her fatal flaw.

7. Catharsis. The release of the audience's emotions through empathy with the characters.

8. Supernatural Elements. Magic, witchcraft, ghosts, etc.

9. Lack of Poetic Justice. Things end poorly for everyone, including the "good guys."

10. Comic Relief. One or more humorous characters who participate in scenes intended to lighten the mood.

As I stated earlier -- and in fact you quoted my point -- Lucas is not a great writer, but as you can see, his prequel trilogy is based on the elements of Shakespearean tragedy (and the OT is not)...

... and...

... that was done purposely.

Lucas created a story mirroring Shakespearean Tragedy... a story on the level of Shakespeare? No, but a "Shakespearean Tragedy" nonetheless.

Ah, I see. I still think that's quite a stretch. I can't remember precise titles from the top of my head, but I've seen a few films that began with a scavenger person (male or female) gathering some loot. Some post-apoc movies, etc.

Until you realize that Palpy lived well into his 80's while being the biggest bastard imaginable, all while having the time of his life... and then he came back from the dead in both old EU and the new "canon". As I see, it's a cautionary tale about how much it sucks if you aren't evil;)

Lol. OK. I'm sure in HIS MIND Lucas did really see it this way too ;)

That does not detract from my discomfort at seeing Star Wars and Shakespeare lumped together. I mean i love Star Wars (more than you might imagine!), just the OT obviously, but i find it beyond crass to try to compare them to one of the greatest playwrights in history. That was my objection. It's like comparing War and Peace to a Marvel comic imho.

---------------------------

This IS an interesting topic, and very appropriate for our time politically speaking. I think you should not forget that at the time of the OT films Palpy (thanks RLM for giving me that short-hand!) was not really revealed to the viewer as much other than the shadowy leader of the Empire, and you really just had his actions in RotJ to go on. He was so evil he was prepared to have Luke kill his father (his faithful servant for how long now?) and take his place.

You could infer he was really EVIL because what kind of monster could keep Vader on his leash as he did? And at the time the landscape was different. I find it beyond interesting the rise of interest in the toys you can buy for children now vs back when the OT films came out.

Sure you could buy Empire stuff (the AT-AT was huge and awesome etc) but it was not pushed to the front as it now is. If i want say a bed sheet set for my kid, the chances are i will only find 'Storm Troopers' or 'Darth Vader' themes in the stores.

So when i see people post like you did, or express a political theme in their posts, i can often see the hand of the 'Dark Side' of the force in that, and then seeing the state of the toys in our stores makes sense ;)

Anyway i'm touching on stuff way outside the boundaries of this thread! But just to show that the 'Fall' in Lucas and Star Wars in general has been bad not only for the quality of the films but also the people in wider society. Pity the children of tomorrow if the Star Wars of today (and the prequels) is all they have to 'guide' them!! ;)

Well, it is interesting interpretation of the series, don't you think? While I have been looking for some good "Dark vs Light Side in Star Wars" discussion for quite some time, perhaps it's the better we leave that for private messaging or another thread, where every Star Wars fan can participate.

I'll just comment on the rise of the Empire merchandise. I think Empire got a lot of fans in the recent year simply because it looks cool. There is some style to them which appeals to the people more than the Rebels do. While I am a Rebel guy through and through (despite my flirting with the Dark Side, but that's a different story), I do have to admit that Rebels don't have so many cool things outside the main cast, Falcon and the X-Wing, and even then, they pale in comparison to Vader.

However, a wise man will see that Empire's cool factor is only skin deep. Stormtroopers may appear cool, but we all know how totally incompetent they really are. TIE FIghter, the iconic starfighter of the Empire? Total crap, without shields. Relies on numerical advantage to defeat it's rival, X-Wing. Vader may appear intimidating and badass in his armor, but that cool armor is actually his life support system, his coffin - in which pitiful, broken shell of man lives in constant pain. And yes, old Palps (somewhat) falls into this as well if we are looking into just from the perspective of the Original Trilogy.

I would argue that this topic has nothing to do with "our time". Evil always was attractive. Gaining personal power and controlling others through force and fear - that's what adepts of the Dark Side do, and that's what is generally considered to be evil across most cultures. And most people would like to be powerful and control others.

Not most people in my experience, only those that are evil or fallen to the Dark Side ;)