Well, I don't exactly agree with you on plot (mainly because it's rehash of the original trilogy) and I don't like the visuals, but hey, to each it's own. Other than that, either I have no first hand experience, or I agree with you.

Heh, as I got older, I actually have come to appreciate some changes which Lucas made in original trilogy (that doesn't mean I don't consider some other changes completely retarded, like the one with Greedo).

I really have to re-watch prequels some day, just to see what I think of them now. I think I haven't watched them for at least 10 years.

I'm not throwing anything at you.

Is stating my opinion somehow hurting you or harassing you? Heck, I'm the one who PM'd you yesterday and said this wasn't personal and tried to be friendly. And in fact you said you didn't take any of this personally. Wow, guess that was a mistake.

You are the one proposing that I am advocating a culture war. That is certainly much more defamatory and "throwing at me" (toward me) than any opinion I have stated about Star Wars.

Star Wars Republic -- and its fall -- is based on many republics... from Rome to pre-WWII Germany. Again, none of it modern social politics. If you want to be so pedantic, no one could ever write anything resembling life whatsoever... and that's just ridiculous.

Feminism can hardly be called modern social politics, considering movements which bear that name existed since 19th century, and it isn't directly present in Disney Star Wars, as republic changing to tyranny is in Prequels.

Also, even if you are going to argue that Star Wars being nonpolitical is its essence (regardless of it being true or not), somebody like me will tell you that its irrelevant because essence of a thing changes through time.

Just read a summary of the plot on Wikipedia, whoa, what a shitshow. Didn't think it'd that bad.

Strong female characters are not the problem (or is that even what you mean when you say "feminism?)...

... in fact strong female characters should be encouraged...

... but the brand of political messaging in Disney Star Wars -- encouraged by Kennedy and the Lucasfilm Story Group -- is not a message of equality ( a la women's suffrage) and vitality, but instead a message of superiority... a decidedly pointed modern political message.

It's not strong female characters that are at issue. StingingVelvet named Aliens... hit film with strong female character. Terminotor 2... hit film... strong female character. Wonder Woman... hit film... strong female character. Heck, since you related this to games... Tomb Raider... strong female character. The number of people truly at odds with female representation are miniscule. Most of the audience wants good characters... but not with such a pointed message of superiority. This isn't an us vs them proposition. Even then, this messaging might not have been as detrimental to the trilogy had it not played out as a definitive disrespecting of the OT main characters (spared was only Leia and Lando). It's that disrespect that shone a light on the depth of Kennedy's political messaging.

When a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group utters "toxic masculinity," I just have to groan. It perfectly distills the us vs them mentality that has intruded on this series. And it perfectly crystalizes why Kennedy would hire Rian Johnson -- one of a vocal "twitter gang" of social messaging film elitists -- to turn the trilogy against its own mythology and characters.

In the end, I believe Kennedy's Disney Star Wars trilogy will be forgotten in less than 10 years. It will stay a broken, dated, mismanaged mess... and not because Rey was the main character... but because her faulty character was just a symptom of far bigger problems of people directing the course of Disney Star Wars who actively disliked Star Wars. This bi-polar relationship to the material is what has made this trilogy such a dud.

After talking about this so much I'm sitting down to watch Solo and Rogue One again. See how it goes this time... but not expecting much.

That's exactly my point. Good propoganda (and good fictional story) is never 100% pure propaganda. It always has to contain a bit of reasoning and rational thought to be coherent.

And how 100% pure propoganda can't.

Hey! You just a few comments ago said that you don't have definition of feminism. So how would you know?

Where did I say I was taking it personally? I just said you keep throwing the "modern social politics!" stuff at me and it's useless because I reject your opinion whole cloth. I think you sound just as whiny and easy to offend as the people you're complaining about, you've become your own enemy. I hear all this noise from both sides and it's like squabbling children.

I repeat, there's nothing wrong with an arrogant jock flyboy getting a dressing down by a female boss so he learns a lesson. There's no deep "social politics" flaw there, it's a normal story and I've met literally thousands of arrogant jock douchebags in my life. The actual problem is the story is written so bad.

I have no issue watching the Special Edition version of The Empire Strikes Back, that is basically just an improved visual version of the original. 1+3 however just step-over the line by actually changing the content enough in net negative ways so i just watch the real original movie release versions of those, and in both those films it is specifically one or two changes that rub me the wrong way or interfere with my being able to enjoy the film.

Episode 4 = Greedo shots at Han first (big error). 'Silly/funny' robots in Mos Eisley (minor 'tone' error). The Jabba scene with bad CGI jabba (trying to 'show off' and sort of failing. Medium error as it does 'ruin' jabba a little).

Episode 5 = replacing Hayden Christensen as the force ghost of Anakin (big error for those that hate the prequels!).

It's a grey area isn't it though? 100% pure propaganda where 'everything' is an actual lie, can still be effective if done well. It's hard, but certainly possible (as we have examples of it historically speaking).

To bring this back to Star Wars, what i'm saying is given time and money i think I could have made a better attempt at Disney Star Wars while including 'Kennedy's Agenda' in it to the point you yourself would feel more sympathetic towards women rather than antagonistic towards them. All the 'Bro-rage' might never have happened!

I'm not a film director or screen writer (but i can write and understand character development etc) and would have to be able to work around the corporate culture issues in making a film at Disney etc, so in this pretend reality where i could get around those issues, i feel pretty confident that all the 'women-hate' Disney Star Wars stirred up, i could subvert that same underlying 'message' to be more subtle and less antagonistic. But we'd still have Rey, she'd still be a bit of a Mary-Sue (erm she is a potential Jedi am i right?) and incredible fantastical things would happen because this the world of Star Wars and space-wizards exist.

Hey we might all be enjoying better social lives on the back of that too! :) It would be a win for everyone as ultimately we all (men and women) HAVE TO get along in life as this is what it is about, getting along, having kids, and trying to have a nice life doing all that.

It's when the Dark-Side enters that role/purpose of humanity we start to struggle and suffer.

Apparently KK would be already fired if there was someone available to replace her.
At least it was like that after the EPVIII release and the backlash, that chair was so hot nobody wanted it, now after the mandalorian success things are looking a little better.

Still Star Wars movies are supposed to earn more than they are doing right now.
Even if 1.2B$ look like a lot of money between shooting costs and marketing and then the shares of theaters, distributors, producers they are getting just couple hundreds million dollars per movie in the best case.

The merchandise is doing terribly, which was the golden goose of the franchise, I don't know if they are actually loosing money on it, I doubt it, but they are getting less than they were expecting to make and since money is the only thing Disney understand they are and have been forced to course-correct the franchise.

They are just waiting the right moment for a suitable replacement to accept the position, at least this is the idea I've got.

No, it can't. And you don't have any examples of the contrary. The whole point of propaganda is to make people believe something. If people see that it's clearly a lie, how they would believe that? And yes, you can make people believe something that is not true, but for that your propaganda still needs to be based on reality, on some facts that people know to be true.

See? That's exactly what I'm talking about. You make your propaganda based on assumption that I (and many other men) am antagonistic towards women. And since I (and other men) know that this is a lie, I would also know that your whole agenda is a lie, no matter how would you coat it to "make more subtle".

If Favreau wants it he should get it without a moment's hesitation from the Disney board. I doubt he wants it though.

Yeah. My comment that started this debate was that Star Wars isn't going anywhere, and I say the same now. The new movie making Ant-Man money instead of Avengers money shows there is a problem, and I think everyone in the thread agrees the movies were poorly structured and written, other debates aside. However the brand is too big to fail, so all it needs is some time off and a creative change and then a new series of films that better please the public.

In the meantime we'll get some cool shows on Disney+ and for me personally that's plenty. I don't need 3 new movies a year to keep me entertained, and in fact think the Marvel pace is tiring. My interest in that franchise since Endgame is basically nil.

When I say "feminism" I think many different things, but I have more problem with the word "modern", which I believe you used as in "contemporary"? I used in more as something "not obsolete" or "not old", and I consider feminism to be both old and obsolete. And not at all connected with strong female characters.

I disagree with you on the reasons for both "female superiority" and Disney Star Wars being bad. In my opinion, they both come down to the simple lack of skill, creativity and utter laziness. You interpret Disney Star Wars as having intentional gender politics of female superiority, while I think it's more a result of utter laziness from the people involved. There is a thin line between active malevolence and outright stupidity. Making "complete" characters take time and skill, so it's much easier to make some character competent by making everybody else incompetent. It's an old method in Hollywood movies, especially prevalent in action and slasher flicks.

This same thing is making entire new trilogy look bad, not it being "fundamentally" at odds with what Star Wars is. Deconstruction and subversion of genre/canon can (and often do) make works of art with certain conventions much "better". You can only make so much by recycling same basic premise for N amount of time. Knights of the Old Republic 2 did that, and it is one of the most respected Star Wars works out there. Which is why I believe TLJ will be most respected (though not necessary "good") movie in the future, exactly because it tried to do something different and went against the fan opinion.

That's my opinion, and you may agree with it or not.

Rinse of the Skywalker.

Sigh, kid, I don't believe I've said that, but also I don't see point in discussing definition of feminism, since definition depends depend on convention and agreement, and I don't believe you want come to agreement with me or anyone who doesn't share your opinion. But if you want definition from me here are some: "Movement focusing on female empowerment.", "Postmodern-Marxists SJW-s." "Red cow." etc. You want another one?