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Licurg: Haven't bought this Cardinal Quest thing yet, should I? Can anyone recommend it?
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Dokusai: If you want a fairly short rougelike game that seems to be designed for beginners to the genre, then yes. I personally thought it was too easy but still kind of fun. It had some interesting mechanics.
Too easy and too short... That settles it, I'm skipping it. I hope the next game on Indiegamestand is a little better.
Here's hoping for Siege of Turtle Enclave!~
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Licurg: Haven't bought this Cardinal Quest thing yet, should I? Can anyone recommend it?
I have it, and it's not that great. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - tiles, is the same, cost nothing, and has better controls as CQ
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Pheace: Here's hoping for Siege of Turtle Enclave!~
Isn't that Windows only?
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Licurg: Haven't bought this Cardinal Quest thing yet, should I? Can anyone recommend it?
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te_lanus: I have it, and it's not that great. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - tiles, is the same, cost nothing, and has better controls as CQ
Agreed. It does have a really steep learning curve, but if you're interested in rougelikes, Stone Soup is one can recommend and still play on a regular basis.
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amok: activation is a form of DRM, its easy enough. And as with all types of DRM it can be unobtrusive (one time activation, unlimited installs) to very intrusive (activation limits, one time code not renewable, calls home each time etc). It is slightly false to say games with some form of activation is DRM free.
Good, I wasn't sure whether I was misreading it or not.
However, I will do as I do with all games I buy - be careful and investigate a little. If the DRM is draconian and obtrusive I will skip, if it is non-existent or unobtrusive then it will not bother me and I might get. Simple code activation will not bother me. Bottom line is that I never really trust any retailers anyway, I always check myself first - after all their job is to get your money.

That's my view, at least.
Normally I do investigate, but when I get a clear statement of DRM-free-ness like the one on the IndieGameStand front page I stop there. It's only by chance that I came across their help article for developers saying that one time (per install) activation is fine.

So just to make sure, I'm not the only one who sees a contradiction between:
DRM free.
After purchase, you can download and install your game as many times as you like.
Taken from the front page, and:
What if my Game has it's own Custom Key or Registration?
That is ok as long as you game does not require an active internet connection to play (single-player). We just don't want crazy DRM like some of the big EA, Ubisoft PC games have had of late. If you have a simple 1-time activation/registration though, that's cool. We have a developer custom key uploader in our developer portal.
Taken from the help articles for games developers.

Their replies to my emails didn't show any sign of "Whoops, that is a contradiction. Better change one to match the other."

I think I should probably stop supporting them as I obviously can't trust them.
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SirPrimalform: I think I should probably stop supporting them as I obviously can't trust them.
Thanks for investigating that, Looks like one less Indie offer I need to follow.
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SirPrimalform: snip
The contradiction, and the root of this problem, is here:

"DRM free.
After purchase, you can download and install your game as many times as you like."

There is a difference between being able to install the game as many times as you like and being DRM free. There are many games with key activation which you can download and install as many times as you like.

But this is common to state that single key activation is DRM free, and I think there are several definitions of DRM where this might apply.

as an example, this is in the email when you buy Kenshi:

"Keep your key code, it has unlimited activations forever, even after the game is finished. I won't have no evil DRM system on my ship! No sir!"
If the game is not available DRM-free anywhere else, and IGS provides a game that I want with the same kind of activation-key-required as everyone else has, I would likely buy that game anyway. If the game on IGS requires an activation key, but I can get it truly DRM-free elsewhere, then I won't buy it from IGS. That's my take on that issue as it concerns me.

As for tomorrrow's game, if it's an alpha only for Windows and OSX, then it could be Project Stormos or Megabyte Punch:
http://www.desura.com/games/project-stormos
http://indiegamestand.com/media/game_covers/44/gc_1348603230_original.png

http://www.desura.com/games/megabyte-punch
http://indiegamestand.com/media/game_covers/83/gc_1346761278_407.png
Post edited October 23, 2012 by SCPM
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SCPM: If the game is not available DRM-free anywhere else, and IGS provides a game that I want with the same kind of activation-key-required as everyone else has, I would likely buy that game anyway. If the game on IGS requires an activation key, but I can get it truly DRM-free elsewhere, then I won't but it from IGS. That's my take on that issue as it concerns me.

As for tomorrrow's game, if it's an alpha only for Windows and OSX, then it could be Project Stormos or Megabyte Punch:
http://www.desura.com/games/project-stormos
http://indiegamestand.com/media/game_covers/44/gc_1348603230_original.png

http://www.desura.com/games/megabyte-punch
http://indiegamestand.com/media/game_covers/83/gc_1346761278_407.png
If it is between those two, I am hoping for megabyte-punch (though I tend to get alphas and betas directly from devs.)

eidt: Hey, the forum bug is gone
Post edited October 23, 2012 by amok
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SirPrimalform: snip
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amok: The contradiction, and the root of this problem, is here:

"DRM free.
After purchase, you can download and install your game as many times as you like."

There is a difference between being able to install the game as many times as you like and being DRM free. There are many games with key activation which you can download and install as many times as you like.
There is indeed a difference, but the fact that it says "DRM-free" at the top would suggest that the games are DRM-free and have unlimited downloads/installs, not that the definition of DRM-free is unlimited downloads and installs (unlimited activations of an online key is still DRM).
But this is common to state that single key activation is DRM free, and I think there are several definitions of DRM where this might apply.

as an example, this is in the email when you buy Kenshi:

"Keep your key code, it has unlimited activations forever, even after the game is finished. I won't have no evil DRM system on my ship! No sir!"

I understand that quote from the Kensi dev to mean that his DRM system isn't evil, not that it's not DRM.

People have different opinions on different kinds of DRM and that makes sense. But whether something is DRM or not is binary, one can't go "Well, since I don't mind this system I'm going to call it DRM-free".
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SirPrimalform: People have different opinions on different kinds of DRM and that makes sense. But whether something is DRM or not is binary, one can't go "Well, since I don't mind this system I'm going to call it DRM-free".
aye, if you do see DRM very binary then there is really no choice, as with everything binary.

To be honest, I see very few things in life binary, and more that everything is in shades of grey which are elastic and subjective from case to case. So far I will still follow IndieGameStand, activation keys are not a problem for me and what I find as very acceptable form of DRM, and if the developers are insisting on this then I have no problem with them selling the games with it as opposed to not selling them at all. However, I will still look at it from game to game, and if hey have one with any DRM I do not like, then I will not get it. But maybe they should not have DRM free stance...

Edit - new hint "Hint 3: Our next featured game is made in Unity" - I do like a good guessing game...
Post edited October 23, 2012 by amok
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amok: activation is a form of DRM, its easy enough. And as with all types of DRM it can be unobtrusive (one time activation, unlimited installs) to very intrusive (activation limits, one time code not renewable, calls home each time etc). It is slightly false to say games with some form of activation is DRM free.
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SirPrimalform: Good, I wasn't sure whether I was misreading it or not.
However, I will do as I do with all games I buy - be careful and investigate a little. If the DRM is draconian and obtrusive I will skip, if it is non-existent or unobtrusive then it will not bother me and I might get. Simple code activation will not bother me. Bottom line is that I never really trust any retailers anyway, I always check myself first - after all their job is to get your money.

That's my view, at least.
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SirPrimalform: Normally I do investigate, but when I get a clear statement of DRM-free-ness like the one on the IndieGameStand front page I stop there. It's only by chance that I came across their help article for developers saying that one time (per install) activation is fine.

So just to make sure, I'm not the only one who sees a contradiction between:
DRM free.
After purchase, you can download and install your game as many times as you like.
avatar
SirPrimalform: Taken from the front page, and:
What if my Game has it's own Custom Key or Registration?
That is ok as long as you game does not require an active internet connection to play (single-player). We just don't want crazy DRM like some of the big EA, Ubisoft PC games have had of late. If you have a simple 1-time activation/registration though, that's cool. We have a developer custom key uploader in our developer portal.
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SirPrimalform: Taken from the help articles for games developers.

Their replies to my emails didn't show any sign of "Whoops, that is a contradiction. Better change one to match the other."

I think I should probably stop supporting them as I obviously can't trust them.
Thanks for the heads up!
Post edited October 23, 2012 by fortune_p_dawg
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amok: But maybe they should not have DRM free stance...
That's my objection. Not that they allow games with DRM, but that they do so while proudly stating a DRM-free stance on the front page in a way that appears to apply to the whole site, not just the game currently on sale. Keeping it there after the contradiction has been pointed out is just disingenuous.
Post edited October 23, 2012 by SirPrimalform
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amok: Edit - new hint "Hint 3: Our next featured game is made in Unity" - I do like a good guessing game...
Hmm, according to Desura both Stormos and Megabyte Punch are made in Unity. And neither have been in bundles before as far as I know.