Just going to stick with this bit, for brevity and maybe it will answer some other stuff as well.

The content was complete. The game itself would have played were it not for needing to see the little "okay" from the Steam client installation. To the best of my recollection, it was either a different serial key (which is then mine to lose track of or not) or a registry entry that allowed me to play. The content was all there, though - which, frankly, is the way it should be when you buy something on disk, fix-it patches and free expansions not withstanding.

For your question, it would not have been okay to make me create an online account to play the retail game. To which you may be saying, "A-HA!" But no, it wouldn't be okay in this case because I bought that particular title from a brick and mortar shop and had all of the bits and bytes I needed, contained on the disk in the box. Taleworlds' solution was not a patch to download, so the purchased content did not change. If you're wondering whether I'm okay creating an account to buy games, well of course I am okay with that. Wouldn't be a gOg customer - or Amazon, or eBay, or any of a bunch of other online shops - were that not the case.

To that end, if someone can describe a decent non-account way of buying digital content that will allow me to download it multiple times over several years at my whim, then I'd like to hear it. The only one I can think of is to email someone a specific link that takes them to their download, and that link never expires. Beyond that, I do not know what would work in place of an account. A non-account transaction works fine for physical goods, because you order it once, you pay for it once, they ship it once, you receive it once. Digital content, such as the game products we're talking about at Store XYZ, can usually be downloaded multiple times, and thus an account makes sense to me. This is especially true for content that gets patched / updated / upgraded over time.

Now, as gOg shows, the customer library can be handled completely (in the old days, anyway) via the website. The customer can get the exact same DRM-free content (talking about any given game they both sell, not saying that their DRM-free catalogs are identical) as on Steam without needing a client with its own rules and restrictions placed on top of the store rules and restrictions. As my example shows, that layer - which was wholly unnecessary for the game I purchased - can prevent one from obtaining the stuff that was purchased, even from a completely different retailer.

----

One other thing, you asked why one would need to download a DRM-free game again. One would not HAVE to, but some customers choose not to download the installers as soon as they buy the games, and instead let the store do the storage duties. For those customers, repeat downloads might be the norm as they play, uninstall, and then reinstall to play again later- especially if they have a nice internet connection and large downloads take only minutes. For me and my craptastic internet, I get the stuff as soon as I can and sock it away on a backup drive so I only need to do it once (except for Titan Quest and its full installers for every patch, but that's a whole other matter).

I see people putting quite some effort into this thread, so:
What could I win here?

Are you saying the game would have fully worked, as long as you would have installed the Steam client? No need to create a Steam account online or anything, just install a Steam client on your (offline) PC and then the game works?

I was assuming it would fetch something for the game from Steam with the client (even just an online validation), but if not, then I guess not. In that case, I don't consider it DRM either. It wouldn't be any different than how many old Sierra adventure games installed "Sierra Utilities" for you, on top of the game itself.

I assume you mean the workaround from Taleworlds? If it was a different serial key, how did it make the game work? Where did you enter that serial key? Or if it was a registery entry, what did you do, change your Windows registery by manually entering something with regedit?

Either way, I still say your retail game was not complete. In order to make it work, you needed something on top of it, be it a new serial key or a registery entry from the publisher. When I say the content is complete, I really mean that you have absolutely everything that is required for the game to run. A missing registery entry or a serial key is still missing content, just like the missing "update file" for The Witcher 3 retail was as well.

I disagree. If all the relevant content had been there, then it would have run as is. Or maybe all the content was there if merely installing a Steam client from the game CDs would have allowed it to run fully, even if you had not created a Steam account. Yuo prevented it from installing that part of the content, for which reason it didn't run.

But frankly I believe it would have required you to create an online Steam account, in which case the issue was not the client itself, but that you would had to register your game online.

To me it appears you have the same objection as the people who bought The Witcher 3 retail had, when they couldn't just install and play their retail game, but were required to create an online GOG account in order to get a file to unlock their game (or alternatively, download the whole game from GOG as a DRM-free installer with a serial key, even though they already had the game on DVDs too).

I consider that as an extra nuisance (one extra step to make the game runnable), not automatically DRM as far as the product itself goes, as long as you never have to log in to that account ever again after that. Not even if you decide to reinstall the game on a another PC.

The purchased content did change if you had to change some registery entry in order to make the game run.

Wait, what!?!

Validation via the internet of an offline install, whether by steam client or not, is classic online activation DRM! He has the whole friggin' game installed. There is nothing missing here except permission from someone to play the game he bought. DRM in a nutshell, case closed end of story. Even if there was a file missing from the disk installation, it's patently clear that there is no need to do so when the rest of the installation resided on the disk, and that the only reason for having a missing file would be, once again, to stop you using your game until you had reported your installation to 'the appropriate authorities'. Once again, that is clearly defined, cannot-possibly-argue-with-this DRM. There is simply no other reason for this to happen. As I recall, some people were not best pleased by this, because it is a form of DRM. At least with GOG, at that point a fully offline installer could be downloaded and then the customer could lift the middle finger to GOG and never use it again. But if I bought that at retail, I would expect a fully functioning offline install. Why else buy a retail box? That's another problem with steam and its 'box with a steam code only' crap.

Edited for messy quoting.

Part #2 of my essay.

Do you consider it as DRM if you have to create an account to buy (and download!) games with your browser client?

Do you consider it as DRM if you have to create an account with a Steam client in order to buy and download your games?

If you anwered differently to those two questions, why? Why did the used client (for creating and managing the account) change your answer? That is the part that simply does not make any sense to me. Why is it the tool used to do something that makes people yell "DRM!" oir "oh, it is not DRM, just a normal online account creation and log in...".

I recall Humble Bundle has a system like that (when you buy a bundle, you get a specific web link meant only for your use from which you can download your games; but you can also create a real HB account and redeem that web link to it so that it is locked to it. But then I don't see much of difference of passing that one web link around, or passing your HB (or GOG, or Steam...) log in username and password around, in case you were a bad person and wanted to share your account (and its games) with all your friends.

Anyway, I feel that is all beside the point. My main interest is why does it appear, if I understood right, that sometimes you consider the creation of an online account to manage (e.g. purchase and download) your digital games as DRM, and sometimes not? In GOG's case apparently it is not DRM (just because you get to use a web browser client to manage it?), while with Steam it is DRM (because you use a specific Steam client for exactly the same purpose)?

All that is exactly why I feel discussing about "DRM" before the content delivery is fruitless, and we get to this neverneding argument about "the delivery part is DRM if you have to use a Steam client for it, but not DRM if you can use a web browser for exactly the same thing".

To me it makes sense to discuss about the existence, or lack there-of, of DRM, only after you have the whole game, the whole content, in your hands. That means, either you have downloaded the game from your online account (no matter whether you have used a web browser, a Steam client, or eletric pigeons to achieve that), or have walked out of a brick&mortar store with your retail game and made sure you have everything you need to run it in your bunker which has no internet (e.g. that you also have the extra registery entry from Taleworlds that apparently is also needed in order to run the game, the game is not runnable = complete without it).

Now we are maybe getting somewhere. You see the Steam client as something that is on top of what you are using for GOG. I just see it as a different tool (client). After all, if I used the same argumentation, I could say that in Steam you don't have to use a web browser to manage and download your games, so GOG requiring you to use a web browser client is an "extra layer".

They are two tools for basically the same task, when we are discussing about managing and downloading the games on your online collection. Neither one is an extra layer on top of the other. On GOG you have to use a web browser (the very least), while on Steam you have to use a Steam client.

Warband retail expected you to use a Steam client... to do something, before the game runs. Similarly, The Witcher 3 required the buyer to do something (create a GOG account and get a file to unlock the retail game) by using a web browser client.

Anyway, even if there were several "layers", extra utilities, to be installed with the game, I still can't consider just the existence of them as "DRM", unless they somehow required you to log in online or access internet every time you either want to install and/or play the game. I don't consider Sierra Utilities in old Sierra adventure game installations as DRM, nor do I consider the Fallout Tactics launcher as DRM, as they didn't force me to register or even go online to play the single-player content. They are extra layers which in reality wouldn't be needed by the game, but not DRM.

True, that's how most people probably do it, download it only when they intend to install and play it, and also possibly redownload several times whenever they want to reinstall the game.

These same people would also lose all their GOG games, in case GOG ever closed doors. So I personally feel they are not really benefitting that much from the DRM-free aspect. Well, somewhat I guess, like being able to install and play the game on several compuiters at the same time.

I see it as a similar approach as if a brick & mortar game store would offer a service to keep all your purchased retail games at their store shelves, and when you want to play one, you could go pick a game there at that point, or have it delivered to you. You know, in order to save shelf space at your home as you don't have enough room to keep all your purchased retail games at your home, or something.

Of course, then you are not really in possession of those games, even though you have paid for them. If the store suddenly vanished, whoops, there went all your purchased games as well. Same as with those GOG games you haven't downloaded and backed up to your PC.

yeah but auto-creating offline installer files compared to the installer files in the galaxy system is exactly because of what reason slower?

You keep on mentioning this 'possession of the whole game' as your reason for considering various situations DRM-free, but I have responded with my reasons why this makes no sense. You have continually refused to engage me on this, merely keeping repeating your own assertion without refuting any of my arguments. I do not and will not accept anything you say on this until you do so.

Edit: I'm reading back through some of your responses, and it seems clear that you think that if there is some DRM blocker, the game ceases to be DRMed once you are past that blocker. It does not work like that. Any form of DRM, even a one-off activation (which incidentally is not really a one-off, it generally needs to be repeated for any further installations, and generally you cannot activate on one machine and then move it to another) means that the game has DRM until such time as the DRM is removed from the process so that it does not interfere with the entire process from installation to play.

I already asked for clarification from HereFortheBeer, but from his message I got the impression that he felt the only reason the game wouldn't run was because he blocked the Steam client installation (didn't say "okay" for it, as he said). I specifically asked whether that was really the only thing causing it not to run (not allowing Steam client to be installed), or if in reality it was that it wasn't validated online (which just would have been performed with a Steam client). I don't have that game (as retail) so I can't guess what he meant.

If the game DVD didn't contain everything needed to run the game independently, then it wasn't complete. Similar case as with The Witcher 3 retail, which required you to get the missing piece to unlock the game by creating a GOG account and download a file. Only then you could play The Witcher 3 retail.

If that is DRM, then does that mean GOG is DRM? I look at it from a practical view: The Witcher 3 retail was incomplete. In order to make it complete, you also needed to create an account to GOG.com in order to download one file.

The Witcher 3 retail + that one extra file is the whole game. Only after that you have the whole game in your possession. It might be that one file just changed some registery entry or whatever, doesn't matter. The game was not playable without it, hence the retail release was incomplete. Or to put it similarly as you, you didn't have a "permission" to play the game until you created an account on gog.com to download that one extra file.

If, however, The Witcher 3 had required you to log in to GOG.com whenever you want to reinstall the game, or even play it, then it would have also been DRM. So what is your view, was The Witcher 3 retail DRM game, even if it required only one visit to GOG.com to get one file, which you could re-use from here to eternity with every TW3 reinstallation?

So I take it then you consider also The Witcher 3 retail (pre-ordered) to be a DRMed game, and GOG to be a DRM service (because one specifically needed to create an account to GOG.com in order to get the extra file, which unlocks the retail The Witcher 3 game)?

You can't have the cake and eat it too. You can't have double standards when you define what constitutes as DRM for you in Steam, or GOG.com. Be coherent.

Again, I look at it from a practical view. Yes, The Witcher 3 retail required one to create an online account, once visit that in order to get one missing piece to unlock the game (after registering their retail game in the account)... but after that extra hurdle, you finally had a fully DRM-free product in your hands (the retail TW3 + that one extra file). At the same time, you got the possibility to even download the full The Witcher 3 GOG offline installer from your newly created GOG account, while you were there. Even though you already had the retail version.

I consider it nitpicking to call that DRM, but you seem to disagree. Ok then, GOG is apparently a DRM service, forcing hapless people to register their retail games here before they can play them.


So, since GOG required people to create an account here and register their retail The Witcher 3 here in order to play it (either downloading one extra file for their TW3 retail installation, or the full DRM-free installers)... GOG.com is a DRM service?

Ok, I guess that is one way to look at it. I don't consider it as meaningful DRM because in the end you do end up with a fully independent, DRM-free, game. You just had one extra hurdle to get it.

I don't know if they yet have a process for auto-generating standalone installers (if not, it's probably something that will be developed eventually), but the fact that GOG tests most updates -- and presumably the newly-made installers they get packed into -- before releasing them (which is a good thing!) obviously means that that process will take a bit longer regardless, and won't usually happen on weekends or holidays, etc. This is not so big a hurdle when the devs can upload patches directly via Galaxy.
The delay between the two is bound to annoy plenty of people, but how long it takes standalone installers to get updated still has nothing to do with Galaxy.

Can you point me to what those reasons (why it makes no sense to you) are? You are so vague now that it is hard to reply. I have no idea what argument of yours you are referring to, you just claim I don't "engage" them, without me even knowing what "them" is.

So what are those arguments? I must have missed them. And please don't tell me to read all your earlier messages again, trying to pick something (that probably isn't even there).

I consider possession of the game quite practically. You have everything in your possession that is needed in order to run the game. If you can back all that up on e.g. an external hard drive and years later use it on another PC without validating it online anywhere, then what you have on that external hard drive is indeed DRM-free. It doesn't matter how you originally obtained it, was it using a web browser or a Steam client. Or in case of a retail game, it doesn't matter if you had to order a certain cab to bring it back home, or use only DHL, or walk on your hands all the way home with the game in your mouth. Doesn't matter, it doesn't have anything to do with "DRM" how you had the game delivered to you, as far as the game itself goes.

Please stop trying to muddle the discussion. The bolded part is irrelevant for this discussion. Read the next part very carefully:

I have explained over and over again that when I refer to "DRM-free Steam games", I only refer to those Steam games which do not need to be re-validated online ever afterwards, after the first download/installation. No, I am not talking about other Steam games that indeed need a re-validation if you try to run the game on another PC (without redownloading it from Steam), or even need to be validated every time you run them.

So yes, I am referring only to those Steam games that can indeed be moved to another machine and played there, without having to validate them again online. I hope that is now clear so you don't have to bring that up again. Yes, I know there are also Steam games that don't work that way, and those I do not consider DRM-free.

Why wasn't that file included? Is there any possibly valid reason they may have had for not putting it on the disk in the first place? I've never heard of one which makes any sense other than 'you need to have your game verified online' - i.e. DRM.

Is GOG drm is a question which doesn't make sense. If your asking if that makes the website a DRM service, then no, it doesn't. It makes this particular game version i.e. the retail version a DRMed version of the game. GOG has never changed its role as a storefront/content delivery service throughout this, and the fact that leaving a file off a dvd means that content delivery can be used as DRM in certain circumstances does not make content delivery itself DRM. Yes, the Witcher 3 retail disk is DRMed. You cannot add a file to that disk, so it remains DRMed. In practice it ceases to be an issue once you are able to retrieve that file/get an offline installer, but otherwise, yes. The offline installer is DRM free, so at that point, you have a DRM-free install of the game, and the retail disk can be ignored. Yes for the game, no for GOG, as explained above. I believe that I have been perfectly consistent. Please point out where I haven't been. Once again, read back through my previous responses about steam and GOG, where I have outlined the differences between them.

This may sound like waffling, but it was a good four years or so back and the precise details are failing me. I did spend some time trying to find the relevant thread on the Taleworlds forum that led me to the solution, and the ones I found were talking about a serial key; instead of a "5x5" key there is supposed to be a "4x4" key that lets you get past the client requirement. Whatever the solution, it was sought and found after I discovered I could not play the game without the Steam client installed. Since the game is now available here, I have done away with the old solution emails - not needed except for, well, these discussions. ; ) Maybe to satisfy my own curiosity I'll dig up the box and see if it has a 5x5 Steam serial.

-----

With serial keys, things get fuzzy. Some folks consider a key entry to be DRM, and some do not. For me, offline key entry is copy protection and not DRM (getting fuzzier yet!). Or at least a level of DRM I can live with since once I have the key then it's simply up to me to not lose it - just like not losing your code wheel back in the day. I should say, by "key" I mean an umpteen digit code you punch in during the installation process and that the installer itself verifies without going online.

My expectation from gaming since around 1986 is that when I buy a retail package for an offline game, then I get the software I paid for and it works. In this case, I got the software I paid for and it would not run because of some unnecessary third-party stuff that had nothing to do with actually playing the game. That's the nuts and bolts of it. It was enough for me to think to myself, "WTH is this extra third-party crap and why is it preventing me from playing?" And then conclude, "Stay away from this in the future."

At any rate, kind of academic for me personally since I have less and less time to play nowadays, so there's no point delving into another store simply to increase the backlog, client issues or not. Hell, I already have enough stuff I am resisting buying because of the reduction in available playing time - the last five big gOg releases keep teasing me.

I didn't say that online validation isn't DRM, it very much is, no matter how it's done. I pointed out that the way that Steam operates, their client is very much an integral and inseparable part of said DRM process.

And yes, if the retail pre-order TW3 required validation though GOG, i.e. everything needed to run the game was on disc, I'd consider that also DRM. And if part of the game was deliberately omitted, for whatever reason, the end result is that that specific version of the game was DRM-ed at the time as a (the?) only means to control people's access to and use of their purchase. I didn't get said physical version of the game, so don't know how exactly that went down.

On a side note, a web browser is not a client, it's a general purpose piece of software to access and interact on the Internet (someone laid it out very nicely, either in this thread or another).


And this is where we disagree. When I purchase a game on a physical medium, I expect it to fully install and run from the content of that physical medium. If it requires me to sign up with any online store, accept their terms, install their mandatory client, accept its terms, to validate my purchase of a physical copy from a completely different and physical vendor, it's very much DRM, even if it's a one time thing.

And before you get upset, this was simply a discussion, each of us stated their position without it being necessary we agreed, or even convinced the other party.

First of all, you have to realize that I am discussing with three or four different people about the same things, you being one of them. Sometimes some of you jump in to a discussion I had with another person. So no, I didn't claim that you specifically claimed "online validation isn't DRM", but in the previous messages (possibly by someone else) it was suggested that Steam service is DRM because they use a specific Steam client, while GOG.com isn't DRM because it lets you use a web browser.

It isn't, because with a number of games it actually allows you to basically download the game files to your PC, and then continue using them even without the client, even on another PC which never had Steam installed. There is no DRM in those particular Steam games any more than in GOG games, and the Steam client could be considered as a mere downloader client for said games..

Me neither, but I recall (from reports) that if you merely installed the game from the retail box, it wouldn't work without an additional file (the file was not released until the official release date of TW3). That file you would get from your GOG account, if you registered your retail game on GOG. At the same time, I think you would receive the digital version of TW3 on your GOG account.

If one considers that as DRM, then does that mean that GOG.com is a DRM service, as GOG was used as the service to manage that game (so that retail buyers couldn't play it before the official release date)?

I'm drawing the parallels of this to the Warband game that HerefortheBeer mentioned. People seem so imply that it is a proof that Steam service (or client) is DRM because that retail game was not playable before installing Steam (and possibly creating a Steam account). What exactly is the difference to The Witcher 3 retail case?

Hmmmmmm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client-side

"Typically, a client is a computer application, such as a web browser, that runs on a user's local computer or workstation and connects to a server as necessary."

https://www.lifewire.com/web-browsers-and-web-servers-communicate-817764

"All web browsers function as clients that request information from websites (servers)."

Ok then, you consider The Witcher 3 retail (pre-ordered) to be a DRM'ed game. Does that then make GOG.com a DRM-service, as it was the service which was used for that purpose (you needed to create an account to GOG.com, register your retail game there, and then download the missing unlock file (patch), or alternatively even redownload the whole game as a digital version if you wanted)?

If one feels that doesn't make GOG.com service, nor a web browser used for that task, DRM, then I don't see how the Warband case automatically makes the Steam service or the Steam client DRM either. That is my point.

EDIT: Actually now I remembered an important tidbit: the same thing applied also to the GOG.com version of The Witcher 3 pre-orders. If you pre-ordered TW3 (digital version) from GOG.com, you would receive the game installer files to your account beforehand so that you could download them before the official release date.

The thing is, those installer files wouldn't install a functional game either (just like the preordered retail version). Instead, you needed to wait until the official release date, and then an additional patch was added to your account. By downloading and installing that extra patch, you could finally play The Witcher 3 (GOG version).

So was the GOG-version of The Witcher 3 DRMed? I considered it simply incomplete, missing one file to unlock the game, and I used the same thinking to that retail version which wouldn't work without that additional file either. When you received that one additional file, only then you had the fully functional game, no matter if you had the retail or the GOG version of the game.


Anyway, I feel that when we concentrate on these special cases (discussing about a couple retail games which needed either a Steam, or GOG.com, connection to function), we muddle the discussion. Let's get back to the original discussion: does the Steam service have DRM-free games? That's where it started, HereforBeer's example of a retail game requiring Steam client installation was a diversion from that discussion.

I think the purpose was to prevent people, who had pre-ordered the retail game (and received it before the official TW3 release date), from playing the game before the official TW3 release date.

And as I just remembered, it was exactly the same case for the digital GOG.com version as well. The installer files came available to people's accounts early so that you could download and even install the game before the official release date... but the game wouldn't work until GOG released an extra patch to people's accounts, which then could be used to unlock the non-functional TW3 GOG installations.

Back then, did you cry foul of GOG using DRM for The Witcher 3? I didn't consider it as DRM, but simply as an incomplete installation (or set of installer files), until GOG released that additional patch. They could have achieved the same by e.g. releasing an incomplete game which misses the executable, and then on the release date just release that missing executable (e.g. TheWitcher3.exe) so that people can actually run their game.

In that case Warband retail requiring a Steam client installation and a Steam account in order to run wouldn't automatically make the Steam service nor the Steam client "DRM" either. It was just that particular retail game which was DRMed.

As mentioned, the digital GOG installer files were also similarly DRMed at first. You could download and install TW3 GOG version before the official release date, but it wouldn't work until GOG released that one extra patch, a separate update, to make that installation work.

Yet, for some reason GOG users were not crying of their preordered The Witcher 3 having DRM. Odd.

But the digital GOG version of TW3 was similarly "DRMed"...

I guess you use that same thinking to the Warband retail case too: it was only the retail game (Warband) which was DRM'ed, Steam service/client wasn't inherently DRM just because the retail game installation required one to have them.