Yeah, of course.
I was more of talking to myself. I wanted to say something but then felt it's not the time yet and typed that instead. :-)

Sorry. I have a busy day at work today. I'm not really concentrated on the game. So just my two cents:

@dedo: yes, I wouldn't clear trent. He prides himself on being indistinguishable between scum and town, by always playing as town. So we should treat him as indistinguishable.

Micro is still fishy. It was pointed out that his last two selections weren't his top scum suspects at the time. Now it's the same thing again. Before I convinced him to switch to yogs, he voted Flocke. But he investigated trent. ... Because trent is hard to read, he says. Which is true enough. But not going for one's main suspect three times in a row is a very strange target selection. And then that convenient role-block, just as he was running out of safe Vanillas to 'track'. As far as I remember, there were no hints of a Roleblocker that didn't come from Carradice. No one else reported having been blocked. It looks quite constructed. Albeit with a very large effort (the breadcrumbs) and an awful lot of luck (no counter-claim, even though Tracker is expected). Scum-Tracker after all? I don't know. Are we really in a game with two investigative roles for Scum and no investigative roles for Town? I find that hard to believe.

But I do agree that a mass claim is in order. I think we'll have to risk any remaining PR's on our side, if we even have any other, to work through this mess. If Micro is our Tracker, then he's exposed anyhow. If he is scum-Tracker, we don't seem to have one otherwise he would have claimed by now. We also likely don't have a Watcher, because any Watcher worth it's PR would have watched Carradice in N1, after he claimed 'Cop'. So we probably don't risk a lot with a Mass Claim, but we can gain some information.

Like Lift I have a busy day at work today.

As much as I hate PM discussion or role talk I do agree that at this point a mass claim might be in order. We need a clearer picture of where we stand because I have a feeling we are at MYLO and we need to tread carefully.

We also need to come to an agreement on Micro, it's the same situation that we were in with Carradice in that if we don't come to a decision then Micro will just be a distraction. I still lean to believing him, mainly because of the breadcrumbs. Nothing else about his actions leads me to believe him because they all easily faked.

So for me I will not vote dedo or Micro, and I vote yes for the mass claim.

I spent the last 30ish minutes not-working and re-reading Trent. I managed to get to around the start of D3. I went at it with the assumption Trent was scum with Carradice. It just doesn't work for me - I can't place them in the same team. It's one thing to try and play a similar game as Town and scum and try to remain undetectable among all the noise and fluff but this is next level stuff. Early bus that always remained to some extent until it got on higher gear at a point when it wasn't yet really necessary just to keep appearances. If he can't be trusted you can't be trusted either. So I'm making a conscious decision to look outside of you two here unless and until there a really good reason to reconsider. I suggest doing a re-read of him and then tell me once more if you find his behavior indistinguishable for the sake of appearances.

That leaves Micro, Flocke and Vitek. Micro seemed quite ready to vote off Flocke (and Yog who we now know is was legit) to get through the day.

I still haven't re-read trent, but I plan on doing that tonight. And Vitek. Then I can tell you whether I agree to put trent back into my Town Core. Also I want to analyze Micro's stance on Vitek. And any Vitek<->Flocke interactions. Are there any connection?

I still have Flocke leaning scum, but you're right that Micro voted Flocke. Distancing? Or a sign that at least one of Micro and Flocke is indeed Town?

We still need Flockes vote on whether to do a mass claim, right? Because for me that would be the next step to do before trying to decide whom to vote for Today.

To be fair I don't know. I don't backtrack a whole lot unless I have a good reason to do so and am playing mostly off memory as I've become lazy AF. Most of my impressions of Vitek are just that, vague memories of stuff he said and did here and there. The only thing I have a more vivid recollection of is his post where he joined the Carradice wagon and added his vote. That left me with a good feeling at the time and since then kind of gave him a free pass based on some general good feeling. But besides that post (and the one where he asked me if I would support Carradice's wagon even though I don't really need to be on it to seal it) I don't really remember much else that wasn't jokes and such. So probably a good idea to revisit Vitek's posts as well.

I don't want you to agree to that, on the contrary. If you manage to put your finger on anything good enough to make a decent connection I'd like to be persuaded of that instead. The whole point is no matter how I try to see their interactions as distancing and Trent doing a great job hiding, it just looks like a long and steady bussing that started very early and eventually resolved as such. Did they agree in scum chat that Trent is going to go through with it so they went and did it??

From technically perspective we already have a quorum on the matter but it's fair to hear Flocke's thoughts on it as well before doing anything about it.

i CAN'T QUOTE MY PM BUT A WORD WAS USED WHICH RHYMES WITH "LOCKED"

NO There are two scum left.
I tracked trent because my biggest suspects are trent/flocke/vitek (in order.)
Others who have played with me before can vouch that I am a big proponent of the theory that at least one mafia sits back and pulls strings without ever getting themselves into suspicion. Flocke might be scum but Trent is the ultimate (so far) in not letting anyone read him; similar to SPF in the HP game (or whichever one it was where I was the IC)--sitting back; no-one had any reads on him that where in any way "pro-town" or "pro-scum". He was scum.

+++++++

I support a mass claim, but that is easy enough to do; i have already claimed.

We are at MYLO, correct?

No one else has claimed to have used an investigative role and lived through the night, now have they?

Scene was Doc, but he did not say who or what he Doctored. No other investigative role has appeared for town, nor have I been counterclaimed. I went with a hunch that with 2 mafia left, if one of them was a PR (which I kinda figured would be the case in a 13-player game / 10T 3S) both players would have to move if there was a NK. Which means--anyone who did not move is likely town. OF course, this observation might be counted on for toNight, if I live and am not NKd, but still.
it was in scum's best interest to RB me and then let town suspect me of lying; it gives them a prime lunch target for today while also getting a NK last night; ergo, "getting two birds with one stone".

you will recall, will you not, that i was the biggest vagon yesterday, and as the town investigative role (maybe the last one) I was trying to stay alive? Both of those two had been stated --by many other confirmed townsfolk--like joe and iirc yourself--to be scummy. Trent was, iirc, the only one who belived flocke to be town.
As a result, i figured that if trent did not move, he is prob town. This means that flocke is more likely to be town which leaves Vitek as the biggest scum.

I got Mylo and Lylo confused and when I looked it up at the wiki, I found out, they changed it to MeLo and ELo. That was a surprise.

02. Lifthrasil (Lathif ben Rasil)
05. Microfish_1 (Mohamed Salem)
07. dedoporno (Faraam Nazari)
08. Vitek (Basil ibn Layth)
10. trentonlf (Faris al Adham)
13. FlockeSchnee (Sagi Hashem)

Micro, already claimed, everyone else already agreed, so here's a Yes from me too.

I don't have time today, but will do some rereading tomorrow.

Trent is your #1? Since when?


This is a tautology, correct?


I recall but staying alive alone isn't going to win the game. Finding scum is. How come the two alternate wagons were good enough yesterday but suddenly the remaining player from them is pushed back by Trent who is top suspect out of the blue?

So you targeted Trent with the notion of proving he is Town, then you got blocked and now Trent is top suspect? What? From your alleged perspective exactly nothing changed. I'm the same as before and the other "confirmed" Townie is now in fact confirmed, even though it's post-mortem. I really don't understand your thought process here.

Alas, I didn't find the time to do the re-read of trent yet after all. But I still will do it.

However, this sticks out:
How do you know?

Yes, I know I questioned Flocke for stressing that she was unsure of the remaining number. That was done partially to gauge her reaction. However, this statement by Micro is no speculation. It states the number of remaining scum as a fact. In spite of the repeated speculation about number of scum, possible third party and balancing issues connected to this. Yes, two remaining scum is likely enough to use it as baseline assumption, but there are other possibilities. Only scum can be so sure of the number of scum.

Exactly.

I don't understand this logic. Why would trent being town mean that Flocke is more likely town too?

By the way, did you expect to survive the Night? With the way you argued about saving yourself as the probably only remaining PR of Town, you sound as if you expect that your Power could still be of any use to us. But it's a similar situation like that which was already discussed referring to Carradice. Scum isn't going to let a known investigative role live unless they can render it useless. So actually the only way Town!Micro could still be alive today is, if you really were blocked. However, that also means that the only thing Scum!Micro could claim was a block. Had you reported a successful investigation, your survival would have looked very suspicious indeed.

1. Thanks yeah, I think that trent (based entirely on memory because i, too, am lazy) has a very strong chance of being scum.
Flocke and Vitek do too. Yeah, I messed up with the "in order" bit; i meant that vitek is less of a suspect than flocke. As far as i can see, anybody who doesn't move at night is town. Thus, as he was one of my top suspects--in part because no one could get a read on him--i went to follow trent hoping that he would be tracked to the NK.

(TBH, I expected to be the NK (not sure why I wasn't), and wrote the flavour bit as my "bah" post. Then, when i survived, i had to rewrite it.)
Because I expected to be the NK, I didn't overly think my decision; I thought "here's the suspect pool; 2 of them are scum. Trent has the best chance of hiding in plain sight because he is drawing the least amount of heat, so let's track him in case he moves; if he moves, he's called on the carpet as probable scum. it probably won't matter anyway because i'll be out of the game, but yeah, let's give this a try and see what happens."

2. Tautology? I'm not familiar with the term, But I know that i was blocked. And that the NK happened. Unless we have some super-scum who can do 2 actions per night, or "personal action plus factional action," we have 2 scum.
Re the mylo bit: i am genuinely asking.

3.

my thought process re the last bit was poorly worded, but i'll rephrase it.

"if trent did not move, he is prob town. This means that flocke is more likely to be town which leaves Vitek as the biggest scum. "

if trent did not move, then he is near certainly town.
if trent is probably town, then he is (probably) telling the truth.
if trent is telling the truth, then when he says "he likes flocke and sees flocke as town," he is not lying. Therefore his words have weight.
If he is not lying, then Flocke is cleared somewhat by a townie, at least in comparison to Vitek.
If Flocke is more cleared than Vitek, then Vitek becomes the bigger scum-possibility.

Therefore, if Trent did not move, then Vitek is more likely than Flocke to be scum.

HOWEVER, because I was blocked, I don't know if trent is town or not, and thus I don't know if flocke is town or not, and thus my entire theory above--which would have been, valid for today as I see it--must needs be discarded. Thus, based on read-memory, Vitek on YesterDay was townier than Flocke.
Thus, Flocke is higher on my target list than Vitek.
Again, Trent became my suspect-of-choice overnight because he was among my top suspects yesterDay.

This is an error in thinking. A townie can't clear a townie, unless he's an investigator or delivers arguments that are convincing by themselves. Just following someone because he is Town, is either a newbie error or it can be a scum move. Either to buddy or to ride along on the arguments of another player without adding anything. So your argument 'if trent is town, Flocke becomes townier too' is flawed. It only works if there is supporting evidence of this link beyond 'trent said so'.

No, he wasn't. At least that wasn't what you wrote. Both Flocke and Vitek were higher on your suspect list than trent. He even had a question mark in your willingness to vote him. (post 1162)


Something else before I go to bed: I would prefer if Flocke started the mass claim by claiming first. I am willing to go first too, if the others prefer. But I would like to start with someone I see as leaning scum. But I'm also fine with trent starting. He's currently the hot topic, so that might make sense too.

I know because of two things.
1. I was blocked.
2. there was a NK. It must have been performed by someone, and thus it must have been performed by
a) scum
b) 3rd-party JOAT. (no chance of a SK because we haven't lost the people expected of SK.)
c) town-folk hoping to hit scum

C) is incredibly unlikely because it would be an obscenely stupid scum play to block instead of NKing me.
This leaves A & B. I don't know about you, but I find the possibility of B to be beyond reason. Unless a 3rd-party JOAT attempts to win alongside scum, they are hunting scum. Blocking someone who claimed "town PR" is incredibly silly of them unless they threw in their lot with the scum. Which stinks.
The only people who have to gain by blocking the town tracker is scum. However, blocking said tracker instead of NKing anyone is, again, stupid.

Therefore, Unless there is a 3rd-party RB, or if some silly town-player blocked me, I am 110% positive than there are two scum.

If you start with the viewpoint that i am telling the truth about being blocked, how can you possibly think that there are fewer than 2 scum left?

Pt 2. I explained, i hope, in my response to Dedo with the logic chain that i used.

Your last paragraph just backs up my claim that there are two scum. Listen to yourself: so now you are doubting that i know that there are two scum because i was blocked? This does not compute.

That's when you're saying the same thing in two different ways. If you know there are 2 scum then you also know we are at MYLO because each one effectively means the other.

Let's assume this happened in the exact way you described it. Who is the other scum? Let me guess - is it me?

This might be the greatest thing I've read today.