I'll quote you again ""If a person is scummy for attacking a townie, then how do you justify the people going after Adalia" this implies that adaliabooks is town and you are questioning why people are going after him.

There is also a big difference in going after someone and questioning someone. Words like attacking and going after are overly strong words to use in the context of questioning someone.

First of all, I'd like to thank Yogsloth for his decision that my deadline for Tuesday would be improved by adding another deadline for Tuesday. Grumble, grumble, mutter, mutter and even etcetera. :P

Let's see... In no particular order:

JMich: Regarding possibilities 1 and 2 in your list - surely due to Adalia in these scenarios being town, he wouldn't know Lift's alignment and therefore it would have no bearing on his reasons?

Regarding Town Vanilla roles - I wouldn't say it's entirely worthless for a cop to investigate them, as RWarehall suggests - after all, getting confirmed Town members in sufficient numbers will result in either victory by sufficient confirmed town or potentially by the scum being forced to take out the confirmed but otherwise weaker town members and allowing the power roles to do their job - but then the only reliable method for confirming the alignment would be the Cop, and even then there are ways around that in the case of a Godfather. ...That's also assuming we have a Cop.

I'm not terribly certain about the value of discussion of which stat would imply what when we don't actually know the system Yogsloth is using - it certainly doesn't look entirely like D&D to me, and I'm fairly certain, to use a separate example, the name Doradon Mauvebeard (if that is his real name) is instead a Warcraft parody.

...And now, looking over the various Day 1 approach arguments, I fear I've brought in the final piece to Adalia's list with a final note in Game #26 about being worried about looking scummy is, in itself, scummy. :P

I'd say I'd go into more specific arguments later, but... well, more work, followed by more testing, followed by less sleep. :(

Yes. If Adalia is town, then no matter the reasons for voting, the result is bad. Either he's saying bad reasons for voting is a townie thing to do, or he's saying a scum play is townie. So in both cases, the town play would be to not award town points.
Add to that the whole part about scum going after players that people are certain they are town, as well as the WIFOM of "Why is that player, that we all think of us town, still alive?" and you see why awarding town points is not a good thing.

Forgot to respond to this earlier.

I have to admit to never seeing the play or movie, so don't know much beyond the basic storyline.

Apart from the joke, that pretty much is my flavour. Change ballet to magic and add another paragraph about how useless I am at magic and that's my PM.

Variety of forces, but the two major issues are that:
1) modern dorms have significantly greater amenities, staffing, and liability costs than they did even 20 years ago
2) particularly if you attend a public, increasing R&B is a way to get around tuition freezes. The public/media/legislature scrutinizes tuition increases, but R&B costs are still relatively hidden in the picture. Similar to the reason that states/munis with a high bar against raising taxes shift to fee-based revenue.

It's one reason all the dialogue about "high tuition" in D.C. and the media misses important parts of the bigger cost picture.

Oh - uh, game related? I confess I'm a bit surprised Adalia is still with us. Admittedly I helped to temporarily pause the wagon, though aside from dedo stepping back from the brink to L-2, there's been no actual movement. And he's been at L-1/L-2 for 24+ hours.

Which is interesting.

Interview this a.m. so I really need to be off-line for the next 5 hours or so. Nothing really to add if it goes to dusk in the meanwhile.

Hey, sorry about my absence all.

Rrrgh. I have this nasty feeling that adalia is going to flip town, same as you last game. But there is also the chance he is scum. I think it is a risk we must take, especially with the deadline approaching. These seem to be good observations.
I'm especially suspicious of you flubbucket! Yes, you.

What about me? :(

I would agree with this, adaliabooks is no longer being just questioned, his neck is on the line (not literally...)

Are you really? ;)

Please don't, please please please.

Yes, odd.

The only person who seems to have really had a problem with CSPVG's request for top scum picks is bler, and maybe HijacK. I wonder why? I will say it is suspicious to me. Scum points for you CSPVG... or wait, did we decide that was scummy? I don't know, I got confused.

No one's more surprised than me... I thought I was dead days ago. Not sure what, if anything, to read into it though. Could be all scum are on my wagon (doubtful, particularly if there are four scum) or whatever scum are not on don't want to draw attention to themselves by hammering (or being the last couple of votes if dedo doesn't revote, which I fully expect he will)

And here we go again. Another instance of "You're okay Dedo", I see taking me off L-1 is townly. As with town points. I don't like it...

Interesting how you have twisted my claim from last game and now try to use it as scummy.
You left out my reasoning.

I believe I was very clear. I do believe mass role claims are virtually a town win every time (at least in GoG Mafia games which tend to have a lot of roles), but I also believe it takes all the fun out of a game. I said that last game and stick to it. It takes most of the deduction out of the game. You end up with a game where you aren't looking at posts anymore and you are focused on which of the two doctors is lying, or the two cops or which vanilla. I have considered a game to prove that point, but I also think that game would be less fun.

As to roles and stats, if you aren't going to be cheap and demand full claims, then its better not to discuss them at all. We will usually get one each day as someone is pushed to a lynch and (depending on the game) we get role reveals at night. The problem with discussing it is simple. Who has more roles? Town. Whose roles generally matter more? Town. So when people slip up, they reveal town info.

So lets imagine someone slips and reveals they are the doctor...
Does this help town? I don't need to know who the doctor is. It doesn't help me, nor you. It does help the scum though. Even vanilla reveals help them as they can already eliminate themselves and knowing a vanilla is one less person that may have a critical role making it easy for them to hurt us with their NK on a more useful role.

So, I'm back to certain topics of discussion being more helpful to scum than town. Talk of stats, how they work, how they may be part of any given role, is information only really useful to scum. What do I care how a doctor role might work in this game? How does this help our one job of scum-hunting? It doesn't. It can only help scum. So frankly if you want to talk scum points, really anyone trying to push such discussion is on my radar. Because it would be good for scum to discuss these things hoping someone might slip...

In a standard game, reveals should be simple. If you are about to get lynched and you are town, you give us everything you have to help us. If you have an investigative role, at some point you have gathered enough useful information that you need to reveal it lest you lose it when NK'd. As any other role including vanilla, you stay quiet and leave the scum guessing.

This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't discuss scum set-ups. While I think its too early to even mention cults and the like, discussing strictly topics like cults and godfathers and other anti-town roles is fine. But I don't see how any discussion of stats right now helps town in the least. And I have to strongly consider that people who persist in pushing this type of discussion might be scum hoping for slips and reveals.

Well sure, that implication might be there if you cut off the next bit where I say "how do you know he isn't town?"

Context is pretty awesome, lets take a look at it, shall we?
-Adalia says (paraphrased) "Town Points for Lift".
-RW calls Adalia out for the town points comment, saying it looks scummy.
-I ask RW why saying some one gets town points is scummy.
-RW says "So scum makes a keen observation and adds fire to help condemn someone they know to be town. ... So, one person making good points attacking a townie here and there, is not something I call townly more than scumly."
-Then I ask "If a person is scummy for attacking a townie, then how do you justify the people going after Adalia; how do you know he isn't town?"

According to RW's comment, if Adalia is scum then attacking him is fine. If he's town, then attacking him is a scummy thing to do. So my query is: how does anyone (except the scum) know Adalia is not town and therefore okay to attack? After all, town shouldn't do scummy things, right?

The way I see it, questioning doesn't generally involve killing someone. All those votes on Adalia? Just a little more and that pile is going to kill him.

I feel like I should point out sooner rather than later that those points are what I think CSPVG has said he gleaned. My personal observations are further down in my post.

I don't know that anyone has said assigning "scum points" is scummy (yet). To me, it seems that would be the logical extension if assigning "town points" is scummy, but what do I know?

If it makes you feel any better, my bet would be that you'll be dead by this time tomorrow.

Assigning scum points isn't scummy. Let's go over the differences, shall we?

"Town Points"
This is someone I feel is playing like town, so I will be reluctant to vote for him, or I won't be voting for him at all.
If said someone is town, he becomes a prime target for Night Kill, since if too many people think he is confirmed town, lynching said person will be near impossible. If said person has a role, town loses a role.
If said someone is scum, he can play a bit more boldly, since people do think he is town. Previous play may excuse future mistakes.
Add a good dose of WIFOM and steer, but giving your thoughts on who is town is not a very good thing.

"Scum Points"
This is someone I feel is playing scummy, so I will be keeping my eye on him. I don't find him yet worthy of a vote (unless he has the most scum points, so to speak), but I could be persuaded to vote for him, if arguments are made.
If said someone is town, he will either have to play scummy enough for townies to push for his lynch, or not enough that scum will attempt to start said lynch. If he is town and plays like scum, then he is not helping town, and his lynch will benefit town.
If said someone is scum, then it does tell others to keep an eye on him. While things he did may not have been seen as condemning, later evaluation may be enough to reveal him as scum, or mark him as a candidate for investigation. Once more, wagon analysis (even if there is no lynch) can prove useful.

So no, assigning scum points isn't scummy, since it is helping town. Assigning town points is scummy, since it is helping scum.

Nightfall was nearly upon them. Of course, it was hard to tell in the dungeon, but the adventurers were suitably tired nonetheless.

However, little else had changed. Faintly, in the deep distance, the thrumming of the goblin drums could be heard. Rats scuttled across the floor. The dying cookfire crackled softly. trentonlf pulled out a mouth harp and began playing “Yankee Doodle”, but a collection of death stares quickly silenced him.

adaliabooks continued to stare testily at the rest of the party, and the rest of the party continued to return the favor… but for the most part, there was little valuable discussion. Someone had to make a move – or decide to make no move at all.

_____

OFFICIAL “TWENTY TWENTY TWENTY FOUR HOURS TO GO OH OH” VOTE COUNT

adailabooks – 5 (Leonard03, trentonlf, JMich, Lifthrasil, RWarehall)
CSPVG – 3 (flubbucket, QuadrAlien, bler144)
flubbucket – 1 (Bookwyrm627)
trentonlf – 1 (adaliabooks)

Not voting – HijacK, CSPVG, dedoporno

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Closest to lynch is adaliabooks at L-2

Deadline is in 24 hours.

_____

You want my honest thoughts as to why you are so strongly pro adaliabooks. It has nothing to do with alignment but with what he attempted to do. Adaliabooks came up with a scheme to move day one along and in the process made himself look scummy. The same thing you did last game. And simply because he is attempting to do something outside the norm to move day one along you want him to succeed bringing justification to your failed attempt at trying the same thing.

If y'all would open your eyes and think on it maybe the realization that someone who presents themselves in a scummy manner is going to be questioned and more than likely lynched, and if said person is actually town behaving scummy then all they are accomplishing is getting a townie lyched for no reason.

@Leonard I see no problem with implying something you see as possibly scummy. Read what I wrote and read what JMich wrote and think about it. The problem is claiming someone gets town points. Because right now, only the scum knows who is town or not. Worse, Adalia is trying to give "town points" for a bad read. How is that "townly"?

@Bookwyrm You have a very bad habit of mischaracterizing or strawmanning other's arguments. If Adalia flips town, the natural assumption will be that any other town on the wagon (being the uninformed majority) were wrong. I still think you are ignoring all the reasons many of us are voting for Adalia.

Furthermore, you may not to study logic a bit. A = B says nothing about whether ~A equals anything.

I'll say this though. I could be persuaded to leave this wagon. I do have a second candidate that I feel is scummy enough to vote. My original #2 broke his silence enough, that I am no longer sure. But I would not be against a vote on Bookwyrm...

As to CSPVG specifically since that was brought up a few posts ago. I didn't find his question to Hijack about his 3 scummiest players to be scummy at all. Seemed to me he was trying to yank Hijack's chain a bit. I did find it a bit scummy that he posed the same question to JMich. So you are not the only one a bit suspicious, but is that question enough all by itself? All in all, I have him more in the big wash around neutral.

Your expectation is correct. Like I said, I am having second thoughts about you, meaning I'm more inclined to believe you will flip town now, but I don't think we can build a better wagon in the time we have left nor I can justify taking a risk of no lynching (this is a new concern that came about since we got the deadline) or hitting another townie with a power role while keeping adaliabooks and enabling WIFOM even more in the next days.


I highly doubt me taking out my vote temporarily changed people's opinion of me especially given the fact that I was just being polite rather than actually changing my mind. I stand by my views.


I'm entirely with you on the stat discussions but I don't see the value of talking about cults, jesters and mafia power roles. Even mafia numbers. All of these are nothing more than speculation with nothing to gain from it at this point. Just a distraction. And distractions tend to work better for scum rather than town.

Sorry if I missed you. Sure, by all means.


Anyway, I'll revote tomorrow morning (potentially hammer).

Please excuse my absence. I was busy all day. So we do have a deadline and it is tomorrow. It still looks that adalia is our only real candidate, though, as he observed himself, the mood has changed a bit. I'm not at all sure he is scum. Some things still look like it, but it might also be, that he is genuinely trying to help town, just in a different way than I would. Our playstyle clashed frequently in the past, after all. So, if miraculously a train on flubbucket appears, I wouldn't be opposed to lynching him either. He stayed utterly useless and is therefore either anti-town or no big loss. But with him at one meagre vote it doesn't look like we can get a majority on him until tomorrow.

About the 'town points' comment. True, these comments can be used by scum for various purposes, like JMich elaborated so nicely. Scum can hand them out to appear themselves more towny in a LAMIST way. Like. "Hey, I noticed that you are trying to help town and I am SO glad that you do! - LAMIST!" Or they can be used to drag a townie down if someone, who handed out town points, is lynched and turns out scum. And all the other things JMich said. But in this case they could also be a genuine relief on adalia's side that someone started doing something and that his ploy set things in motion (even if that motion was against him. Not a wise move for town, IMO, if he he is town after all). And yes, I do feel the crosshairs on my back that these 'town points' paint there. But then again, such a comment isn't needed for those crosshairs to appear. Scum can read and think too and they can decide themselves, whom they can paint in a bad light and who is too towny. Unfortunately I seem to fall into the latter category each time and therefore are often NK-ed early. But what the hell, I'll try to make the best of the time I got and I'm not going to start lurking or do intentional fence-sitting or whatever just to survive longer. So, if you are town, dont worry about that comment. It didn'd do any damage, I think. I'm quite capable of painting a target on my own back! ;-) And to all others: we'll have to wait and see how adalia flips to evaluate the possible meaning of all his comments and those of his accusers (including mine).

So, what do you think? Can we get a flubb-train started? It's about the only one I would feel comfortable leaving the adalia train for. Or do we proceed as it seems most likely, lynch adalia, hope for the best and learn what we can from the flip?