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Moderator's Note:

OK, have a deadline then.

Deadline will be approximately 10 AM PST (GMT - 7) on Tuesday August 11th.

I say "approximately" because you never know what will be going on in my life at the moment, but I should be able to close it down at that time.

You have ~ 39 hours. :)

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The other thing that is a problem with a Vanilla claim...
I get the idea that one might "figure out the truth" in later days with some claims...
But by claiming Vanilla, it would really be a waste for a cop to waste an investigation on it. It's a waste to track someone on the off-chance they might be lying. You'd be counting on some sort of Watcher role who gets lucky and is camped on the person the false Vanilla visits. It's why, generally speaking, no one leaves a wagon with a forced vanilla role claim. Its almost as unverifiable as a PGO, not because one can't but because one won't.

For anyone wanting to read a few paragraphs on my present [url=http://www.gog.com/forum/general/signup_thread_gog_forum_mafia_29/post130 ]life[/url]. (not game related)

Temporary check in, something real in about 12 hours.

For all the nitpicking on words you do sometimes (like now), I wonder how you don't seem to see what is being said more often. You even quoted me as saying it: We don't know for sure whether he is town or not.
RW's line: "So, one person making good points attacking a townie here and there, is not something I call townly more than scumly."
If Adalia is not confirmed scum, then he may be town, therefore people may be attacking a townie, and attacking a townie is a scummy thing to do according to this statement. I think we can't make a sure call on whether attacking someone is a town/scum thing to do until the attacker's alignment is confirmed in some fashion, because a townie might attack another townie for various reasons (like, say, the target acts scummy).

And in case you want me to say it explicitly: I don't know whether Adalia is town or not.

As for "going after" him: "questioning" him seems an overly mild term for someone who has been pushed to L-1 by some people who have not indicated a read or even interest in other players. I said "going after" because his lynch is being pushed from multiple directions, seemingly ignoring other people that could use some encouragement to comment a little more. One can (and should) "go after" scum, and I don't see why my saying people are going after Adalia indicates "there is no reason to be questioning him and to be doing so is unjust". That is an utterly absurd conclusion, especially when I've already expressed my own reservations about some of Adalia's comments.

Alright, lets take a look at #242:

What could Adalia's reasons be?
Some stated reasons:
-Lift dropped a vote on a player he was concerned about. Townies are supposed to do that, right?
-Lift didn't sit around waiting for someone else to vote Adalia first. I've seen talk about how scum tend to prefer hopping on a running wagon instead of starting one.

Implied reason:
-Lift is apparently acting "in character", based on Adalia's meta-expectation of Lift.

Additional possibility:
-Adalia might have hidden motives. You propose he might be trying to buddy up to Lift. Think about what Lift is like, and tell me whether you think this is a tactic that might work on him. Maybe it will, but I'm inclined to think not. Do you think that Adalia will think he could lull Lift with such a tactic? Once again, I think not.

As to the rest of your post: I think I understand your meaning, though I have a question about it. Would you point out insightful observations to draw other's attention to them, and if so, how would you label them?

Ugh, this discussion seems to have been dominated by a few of the more outspoken people here. I'm patiently waiting to hear from Quadr and Leo since they've been quite quiet. And since CSPVG was the one to propose it, I'm still waiting for his top 3 list. But for some reason I'm expecting that to come around day 2.
I like how RWare is contributing though, but I can't say I agree with everything he says or at least wholly.
On another note: Where is JMich? I could have sworn we were playing the same game.

As for the discussion at hand between book#2, trent, RWare etc. This whole thing looks like another debate of semantics. Everybody is seeing the whole thing from their point of view and none are really budging from them. Add nitpicking to this in order to make a "case" against someone and you have a conflict in the making.

In any case, let me give my 2 cents on what constitutes a mafia game. It is a game of perception and intuition. Predicting the most likely outcomes and possibilities (at least from your view point) is what the core of the game is about. Using information in order to properly asses the events that are transpiring and make a choice based on the conclusions you have reached.
This whole debacle with adalia and whether he is town or scum and trying to asses his interactions with others is nice and all but given the fact that we don't know his alignment until it flips all we have is our own rationalization from our own viewpoint. Everyone has had different experiences in this game, other games, and life in general. The likelihood of everyone having the same viewpoint is smaller than my chances with Eva Mendes. (some dudes just ate too much shit in their lives, otherwise I can't explain how they got beauties like that)

In other news: the life of a student sucks major %$#& here in US. I can't even afford one bundle of comics because of those..... room and board charges. What the hell is wrong with these prices? It's cheaper to rent a twice as big place for less. I'm really distressed by this. Ugh.... whomever came up with that white male privilege thing obviously didn't get laid enough. Just sayin'.

Nah, this one seems more geniune. Thanks dedo :)

So, the one thing that's standig out to me in all this, other than trent's continued scuminess, is RWarehall...
Last game he made a very big point about how mass role claims and such were a game breaker and usually ended in a win for town, he even proposed a game based around the idea to prove a point.
Now he seems very much against any kind of claim or info reveal because it's damaging to town...
Now, admittedly he was scum last game so maybe he didn't really believe any of it and that was all a ploy to get people to claim, but it's certainly very inconsistent with his current view point.
Was that all a lie last game RWarehall? If not, why the sudden change of heart?

Let's take a look at some possibilities, shall we?
Possibility 1) Adalia is town and Lift is town. Adalia gives Lift "town points" for voting, even though Lift's reasoning is wrong (he is voting for town after all).
Possibility 2) Adalia is town and Lift is scum. Adalia is awarding a scum "town points", so people are more likely to see Lift as town.
Possibility 3) Adalia is scum and Lift is town. Scum is awarding "town points" to someone, to make them look more towny. Will most likely result in Lift being seen as scummier. But see below.
Possibility 4) Adalia is scum and Lift is scum. WIFOM territory. Scum awarding "town points" will be argued that they are trying to incriminate the one they awarded points to, so they are most likely to do it to a town instead of scum. Unless of course we go with the previous possibility.

As with everything in a mafia game, there are few actions that are clearly scum or town tells. Most of them also depend on the circumstances under which they happen, and they do shift the perspective under which you view the player. But there's no need to declare said perspective, unless you are convinced that one is scum and want to convince others, or others are convinced he is scum and you want to explain why you think he's town. So, awarding "town points" is similar to congratulating the doctor for preventing the night kill.

I completely agree that the whole 'town points' thing can be WIFOM'D to hell and mean a variety of different things.
In this case I said it because I believed Lift's actions were those of a genuine townie, he saw something he didn't like and felt was off and placed his vote. In contrast to trent who saw something he didn't like and waited for someone else to place a vote before doing so. And that contrast was part if what I was looking for. Particularly as trent, as far as I can remember, is usually pretty happy to throw down a vote as soon as he sees something he doesn't like and waits for explanation later.
So why the change of tactic this time? Why didn't he vote me as soon as I had suggested something he saw as scunmy? Because he didn't want to be the one to start the wagon.

So why point out to scum that Lift is so town? Night kills do tend to favor those that are considered too towny to be voted for, so you are painting a target at Lift's back.

Because it was necessary to show the context of why I felt trent was scummy. Ok, I could have not said that and just pointed it out about trent, but it still would have required listing Lift's actions as being pro town and have the same effect.

Where exactly did you say "We don't know for sure if he is town or not?" You didn't, you said "If a person is scummy for attacking a townie, then how do you justify the people going after Adalia; how do you know he isn't town?"

Maybe "you" and "we" are the same word in your world but in reality they are not.

Questioning him is a lot more accurate than saying going after him. All anyone has done is question him. You are now even bringing the word "attacking" into it, another strong wording to blow questioning adaliabooks out of proportion. Tell me this, why if some of adakibooks comments have given you reservations are you so upset about people questioning him? Oh wait I meant "going after" and "attacking" him.

Right, as we now have a deadline fast approaching I feel I should mention I'm working tonight and will probably be away around lunch time tomorrow (haha, almost mistyped that lynch time... Freudian slip?) so probably won't be able to contribute much when it comes to crunch time.

I will probably be on for a bit tonight when I finish work, and possibly a little in the morning tomorrow. So if anyone has any last questions or wants any more info from me then ask away now while you still have a chance and I can still answer.

I'm not really sure where we're at now... with the deadline approaching it doesn't look like anyone but me is going to get lynched, but I feel the wind has changed slightly in that respect and I'm not sure whether that's still desired or not...
Oh well. Let's just see what happens.

Okay, technically you are correct in that I didn't originally say "We don't know...". Of course, I also didn't say "I know he is town". If you are going to be picky about the first, then why aren't you being similarly picky about the second? You are being highly inconsistent.

My objections: look back at what I have objected to. I haven't objected to other people voting for him. I have objected to what I see as misinformation and misrepresentation, and I've stated why certain of his comments are not going to trigger my vote on him at this time. Not without more supporting evidence, at least.

When have I said anything like "I'm upset that people are [insert appropriate verb here] Adalia?" or "Adalia is going to get lynched? This makes me angry!"

Looks very much to me like he's going to suggest you are scum (and therefore knew I was town) and use that as a reason to go after you tomorrow.
He's already said if he were scum that he wouldn't be on my wagon (ha! I'll believe that when I see it), planting the idea that clearly scum aren't on my wagon (i.e. you) and that you're defending me to seem townie, knowing how I'm going to flip.

Getting warm trent?