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General discussion (archive)Mac Game Update: 34 New Additions(159 posts)(159 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 15, 2013
more mac, More Mac, MOAR MAC!!!

That's right. We've added an actual bucket full of Mac games to our catalog today. No, really, we got a bucket, filled it, and then made all of those games Mac compatible. Man, the way we do business can be odd sometimes. As usual, if you got the Windows version of one of these games previously, you'll be granted the Mac OS X version without any additional payment. Check the complete list of our Mac/Win dual-system games here.

The new huge batch of games includes acclaimed titles old and new. Here's a little preview just to show off some of them.

<iframe width="590" height="332" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TuDIy4ILdzY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And here's the full list of new additions:

Lords of the Realm 3
Septerra Core
Still Life 1
Expendable
Fallout Tactics
Mob Rule
Trine
Jagged Alliance 2
Jagged Alliance 2 Unfinished Business
Jack Keane
I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream
Costume Quest
Enclave
Smugglers V
World of Aden: Thunderscape
Stacking
Nancy Drew Curse of the Blackmoor Manor
Rogue Trooper
Legend of Kyrandia
Legends of Kyrandia Hand of Fate
Legends of Kyrandia Malcolm's Revenge
Shadowman
Haegemonia Gold
Iron Storm
Atlantis 2
Divine Divinity
Wizardry 6+7
Wizardry 8
Runaway: A Road Adventure
Runaway: Dream of the Turtle
11th Hour
Beyond Divinity
Realms of Arkania 3
Strike Suit Zero
Original War

EDIT:
Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, we needed to remove Daedalic Entertainment's The Whispered World from our Mac OS X lineup. We will offer a refund to anyone who bought the game between November 15 and November 20 2013, if they purchased the game based on Mac compatibility, and would like to get their money back. We're terribly sorry for this inconvenient situation!
Posted November 16, 2013
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xyem: Feel free to enumerate a proper list of reasons instead of an unmarked "reductio ad absurdum" list and we can pick them apart and resolve them.
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SLP2000: Don't you think that this:

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TheEnigmaticT: until we can find a cheaper, more automated way to test and remaster games for Linux, we can't do it and make money at it.
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SLP2000: is the ultimate reason that you can't discuss with?
No, because I can't think of any reason why such testing in Linux would be anything other than cheap and automated. If anything, Linux should be the cheapest and easiest to automate such testing.

I can build a system that launches a game in 100s of distros with various configurations and sends me a report of what worked and what didn't.. even down to graphical issues, input issues, framerate lag, resolutions that didn't work etc.

How do I know I can? Because I already have it planned out for when my own game gets closer to release.

What tests can you automate in Windows and Mac, that you can't automate in Linux?
Posted November 16, 2013
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xyem: No, because I can't think of any reason why such testing in Linux would be anything other than cheap and automated. If anything, Linux should be the cheapest and easiest to automate such testing.

I can build a system that launches a game in 100s of distros with various configurations and sends me a report of what worked and what didn't.. even down to graphical issues, input issues, framerate lag, resolutions that didn't work etc.

How do I know I can? Because I already have it planned out for when my own game gets closer to release.

What tests can you automate in Windows and Mac, that you can't automate in Linux?
what can I say, maybe that's the problem - you can but GOG can't?

I doubt they automate tests in Windows and Mac, I think they test them personally. And that's the problem, they don't have people to do that including all Linux distros.
Posted November 16, 2013
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SLP2000: Don't you think that this:

is the ultimate reason that you can't discuss with?
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xyem: No, because I can't think of any reason why such testing in Linux would be anything other than cheap and automated. If anything, Linux should be the cheapest and easiest to automate such testing.

I can build a system that launches a game in 100s of distros with various configurations and sends me a report of what worked and what didn't.. even down to graphical issues, input issues, framerate lag, resolutions that didn't work etc.

How do I know I can? Because I already have it planned out for when my own game gets closer to release.

What tests can you automate in Windows and Mac, that you can't automate in Linux?
Man, then they have to fix each problem for each distro...for what, like the 0,01% of the customers?
The only feasible scenario is that they official support 1 or 2 official distro, instead of a generic "linux" (for example, "Ubuntu 12.04).
Posted November 16, 2013
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SLP2000: Don't you think that this:

is the ultimate reason that you can't discuss with?
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xyem: No, because I can't think of any reason why such testing in Linux would be anything other than cheap and automated. If anything, Linux should be the cheapest and easiest to automate such testing.

I can build a system that launches a game in 100s of distros with various configurations and sends me a report of what worked and what didn't.. even down to graphical issues, input issues, framerate lag, resolutions that didn't work etc.

How do I know I can? Because I already have it planned out for when my own game gets closer to release.

What tests can you automate in Windows and Mac, that you can't automate in Linux?
The core problem is how very little we automate on any platform, not that Linux is more challenging to automate on. So until we get better at that, Linux isn't a great platform for us.
Posted November 16, 2013
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thinkoplex: I have to say this is "too little, too late" for me. When I saw "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream", I jumped to get it since I'd wanted to play it for, oh, 20 years or so. I didn't even know there was a Mac version until I saw it at Steam. When I wrote GOG about it, all I got was a perfunctory, disinterested reply.

Now I'm hesitant to buy anything from GOG. If Steam can have the Mac version on day 1, then why can't GOG? And what happened to GOG's customer service in the meantime? I just threw away my money buying "I Have No Mouth" here (I had to re-buy it at Steam). Will that be the case in the future as well?
Yeah probably, either gog is running out of money, or it has hit "cruise control". I'm getting very very bitter. Gotta stop responding to posts heh.
Posted November 16, 2013
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rampancy: It's likely a support issue; GOG is talking about their system requirements from the standpoint of their test machines. While they do have a wide range of Mac hardware to capture as wide a variance as possible, they don't have the ability to test all of the old hardware configs out there.

With the case for indie games, I'd go by the recommended/minimum requirements listed by the developers or on other places like Steam; for classic games I'd go by the requirements listed on other places too. A case in point is System Shock 2; my old Core Duo MacBook running 10.6 shouldn't be able to run it according to the requirements, but if you install the Windows version using CrossOver or Wineskin it works perfectly.
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TheEnigmaticT: You are correct; we only promise our games work on computers we have seen them working on. More importantly, we only support platforms we can regress bugs on. :)
Thanks for the confirmation! I've been curious about that for a long time.
Posted November 16, 2013
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TheEnigmaticT: The core problem is how very little we automate on any platform, not that Linux is more challenging to automate on. So until we get better at that, Linux isn't a great platform for us.
Maybe you should hire Xyem to single handedly handle linux testing, distribution and support? He obviously can do it blindfolded and both hand tied behind his back. ;-p j/k
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jorlin: Nobody *forces* you to buy a game on Steam. You do that by your own volition.
Exept that most new AAA games along with many indies are steam only so you either buy them on steam (never!) or don't play them at all. It's not really voluntary if there are no options.
Post edited November 16, 2013 by Petrell
Posted November 16, 2013
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SLP2000: Don't you think that this:

is the ultimate reason that you can't discuss with?
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xyem: No, because I can't think of any reason why such testing in Linux would be anything other than cheap and automated. If anything, Linux should be the cheapest and easiest to automate such testing.

I can build a system that launches a game in 100s of distros with various configurations and sends me a report of what worked and what didn't.. even down to graphical issues, input issues, framerate lag, resolutions that didn't work etc.

How do I know I can? Because I already have it planned out for when my own game gets closer to release.

What tests can you automate in Windows and Mac, that you can't automate in Linux?
From what TET told me in my interview with him, they do all of their testing with a compatibility lab and compatibility testers - for the Mac at least. It seems that from their perspective, to provide the level of support that they want, for the variance of hardware/software configurations that they want, for Linux, they'd have to build up a significantly large infrastructure of testing machines and a testing team to capture as much variance as they can for system configurations. From what he said, they were (are?) aiming at three distros (Ubuntu, Mint and Arch?); not only would they have to account for hardware differences, across those three distros, but likely for differences in things like drivers.

IMHO though, this isn't insurmountable; I don't see why they couldn't just draw a sharp line and say "We support game x on hardware configurations y running a vanilla install of distro z, like what they do with their Mac games.

At any rate, I find it saddening that not much progress has been made on the Linux front of things, but I'm still hopeful. The release of Steam on Linux hasn't led to an upsurge in Linux as a viable gaming platform like I'd hoped, but from this report, it looks like Steam has established a viable customer base on Ubuntu, at least.

With Steam OS coming (potentially providing a uniform platform for GOG to fix on?), and Steam on Linux hopefully building up momentum with more releases, I think that soon the economics will work in Linux's favour.
Posted November 16, 2013
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TheEnigmaticT: Bringing up my own example of reductio ad absurdum in arguing that our reasons for not supporting Linux are bad is kinda shoddy. We have actual reasons; you may or may not agree with them, but they're substantially better than you're indicating. And you know that, too.
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xyem: Being "substantially better" than absurd or ridiculous doesn't make your reasons good.

I'm yet to see a reason given for not supporting Linux that isn't easily solvable, usually in the same way the same issue has already been solved, as they tend to apply to Windows and Mac too.

Feel free to enumerate a proper list of reasons instead of an unmarked "reductio ad absurdum" list and we can pick them apart and resolve them.
I think I gave a reasonable response to the issue here but I notice you didn't respond to it:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/bonus_more_mac_games_on_gogcom/post46

You are perhaps without thinking of it, asking for proprietary information. For example, is it occurring to you that there simply may not be the money available to do even one more thing than they are now? They are not going to disclose this whether it is the case or not and we cannot know it since we do not work there. We are also not privy to top management's planning, market research and some of the managerial reasons (not technical ones) that are probably a significant part of this.

I am wondering now, how did this thread about Mac games turn into another thread about bringing Linux games to GOG? This has gone way, way, way off topic. As I said earlier I feel for Linux users but frankly, this stuff has been discussed before elsewhere and beating a dead horse isn't going to bring it to life. The fact is, when GOG management sees bringing Linux releases here to be both feasible and profitable one can reasonably expect them to do it and not before. One can also expect them to either do it right as they define right or not at all until they can do it right as per their definition which they have already repeatedly given.

Being demanding and insulting isn't going to further the cause. Calling replies about the issue from GOG staff ridiculous isn't going to get you where you want to go. Patience is a virtue as they say. Don't you think with Steam, HB, GG and others selling Linux games that GOG wants in on that action too once they can make money at it? Of course they do. Give them some time. Thankfully, it isn't like you don't have other good options presently and fortunately.

This is kind of like me from a Mac perspective getting pissed that say, the Might and Magic games are not done yet. They should be. Why? Because I said so. I want them and I want them now and they are easy to do and there is no excuse for them not getting done - EXCEPT for one little problem I mentioned in the other post - RESOURCES to do this work.

As for producing automated testing of any quality on 100 different installations of Linux in a short time that is actually useful, good luck with that. It could be of limited use but I sure hope you are planning on more time and effort than that including the necessary evil of manual testing, test planning including test documentation, planning for test cycles as bugs are found, fixed and new builds need testing, etc. I am all for automated testing as someone who lead a team of software test engineers professionally but it is just one part of the task and it is not some magic solution to the problem of needing to carefully plan for and properly test software. If you work in development, I would not expect you to ever trivialize the work involved here and the importance of doing it right. In the case of GOG doing it to support even one additional operating system, not including variants of it, TET's point is valid. It does take time, resources and cost money. Automated testing helps but does not eliminate this issue at all. In fact, someone needs to be employed in designing, creating, executing and then evaluating the results of automated tests as just one facet of an overall testing process. This is not trivial. Another fun aspect of automated testing is that like writing any other code, test code has bugs and causes problems. So the automated tests need to be tested as well and fixed because you can be sure nobody is perfect.

There is also the expense of another test lab populated with a decent variety of hardware needed for all this testing to be done on and most expensive of all, the test engineer(s) who are going to be doing the work. They are already out straight. If they weren't, all the Mac games would already be done but they aren't so they must be pretty busy already. Oh, and let's not forget the cost per seat for professional level testing software to do this automation with and don't tell me you don't need it because... that just tells me you do not know much about software test automation. Tools included with an OS can be useful but are just the beginning of what you need to get the job done, depending on how well you intend to do it and how much money you hope to ultimately save by employing test automation in the first place.

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Kabus: Original War is a secret gem.
Mmm, I just added that to my wish list yesterday. :D
Post edited November 16, 2013 by dirtyharry50
Posted November 16, 2013
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dirtyharry50: As I said earlier I feel for Linux users but frankly, this stuff has been discussed before elsewhere and beating a dead horse isn't going to bring it to life. The fact is, when GOG management sees bringing Linux releases here to be both feasible and profitable one can reasonably expect them to do it and not before. One can also expect them to either do it right as they define right or not at all until they can do it right as per their definition which they have already repeatedly given.

Being demanding and insulting isn't going to further the cause. Calling replies about the issue from GOG staff ridiculous isn't going to get you where you want to go. Patience is a virtue as they say. Don't you think with Steam, HB, GG and others selling Linux games that GOG wants in on that action too once they can make money at it? Of course they do. Give them some time. Thankfully, it isn't like you don't have other good options presently and fortunately.
In Xyem's defense, are Mac users any different? We just want to be treated fairly with game releases just like any other platform. We've got money and dammit, we're willing to throw it at any game publisher/developer/distribution platform that doesn't treat us like second-class citizens. From my experience reading your posts both here and on the MR forums, I'm guessing you've been around the Mac and the Mac gaming "scene" as long as I have, so you likely know of all of the times when we've tried to argue a convincing case for Mac support for game publishers and developers. I don't think this is any different. IIRC, some Mac users here were pretty hostile to some of the arguments as to why GOG didn't support the Mac sooner, back when there was a compelling case to be made for GOG to not support platforms other than Windows.

Yes, I'm not privy to GOG's internal numbers, but I think the evidence is pretty strong to support the notion that most of the pieces are in place for GOG to start at least a small push into the Linux market. The demand is certainly there. The technology is too. Are the resources there? That's what seems to be the debate, but given the rapid growth of GOG, I think it's something that will soon be financially reasonable.

While I think that the tone of some users is a little over-the-top, I think that xyem and others have a right to complain. Like Linux users, Mac users have dealt with being gamers in a minority position within a much larger market, and the lack of options that come with that position is frustrating.


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Kabus: Original War is a secret gem.
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dirtyharry50: Mmm, I just added that to my wish list yesterday. :D
You should get it. It's a neat game with an interesting premise, with a heavy tactical feel reminiscent of Myth: TFL. I had it running great in Wineskin with the owsupport's community patch.
Posted November 16, 2013
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rampancy: Are the resources there? That's what seems to be the debate, but given the rapid growth of GOG, I think it's something that will soon be financially reasonable.
Actually wether or not GOG has resources to do it is not important. Only two things are important, wether or not GOG sees the investment on Linux bringing them profit and wether or not there are other places that would bring more profit with same or less investment. There are, after all, plenty of other places they could invest the resources they can spare and if they saw linux as good investment and lacked resources, they could take corporte loan to pay for it.
Posted November 16, 2013
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dirtyharry50: As I said earlier I feel for Linux users but frankly, this stuff has been discussed before elsewhere and beating a dead horse isn't going to bring it to life. The fact is, when GOG management sees bringing Linux releases here to be both feasible and profitable one can reasonably expect them to do it and not before. One can also expect them to either do it right as they define right or not at all until they can do it right as per their definition which they have already repeatedly given.

Being demanding and insulting isn't going to further the cause. Calling replies about the issue from GOG staff ridiculous isn't going to get you where you want to go. Patience is a virtue as they say. Don't you think with Steam, HB, GG and others selling Linux games that GOG wants in on that action too once they can make money at it? Of course they do. Give them some time. Thankfully, it isn't like you don't have other good options presently and fortunately.
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rampancy: In Xyem's defense, are Mac users any different? We just want to be treated fairly with game releases just like any other platform. We've got money and dammit, we're willing to throw it at any game publisher/developer/distribution platform that doesn't treat us like second-class citizens. From my experience reading your posts both here and on the MR forums, I'm guessing you've been around the Mac and the Mac gaming "scene" as long as I have, so you likely know of all of the times when we've tried to argue a convincing case for Mac support for game publishers and developers. I don't think this is any different. IIRC, some Mac users here were pretty hostile to some of the arguments as to why GOG didn't support the Mac sooner, back when there was a compelling case to be made for GOG to not support platforms other than Windows.

Yes, I'm not privy to GOG's internal numbers, but I think the evidence is pretty strong to support the notion that most of the pieces are in place for GOG to start at least a small push into the Linux market. The demand is certainly there. The technology is too. Are the resources there? That's what seems to be the debate, but given the rapid growth of GOG, I think it's something that will soon be financially reasonable.

While I think that the tone of some users is a little over-the-top, I think that xyem and others have a right to complain. Like Linux users, Mac users have dealt with being gamers in a minority position within a much larger market, and the lack of options that come with that position is frustrating.

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dirtyharry50: Mmm, I just added that to my wish list yesterday. :D
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rampancy: You should get it. It's a neat game with an interesting premise, with a heavy tactical feel reminiscent of Myth: TFL. I had it running great in Wineskin with the owsupport's community patch.
Well, I won't argue with any of the above further. It would be good to get the thread back onto its original subject I think. Speaking of which, yes Original War does look very cool to me especially now that GOG has done the work for lazy bones here by setting it up to run on OS X. :D

This latest round of Mac releases is very nice I think. I had the Kyrandia series on my wish list already so I'm very happy to see them done up for Mac now. I also checked into a couple games that weren't really on my radar including Original War. On top of that, I think it was about eight or so of my games were upgraded if you will, to Mac releases. So this was all very good news for me.

You reminded me of something. I was thinking I should post about this round of releases and the sale on the MR gaming forum if nobody else had. I should check on that just to make sure nobody misses out who visits there.
Posted November 16, 2013
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dirtyharry50: This latest round of Mac releases is very nice I think. I had the Kyrandia series on my wish list already so I'm very happy to see them done up for Mac now. I also checked into a couple games that weren't really on my radar including Original War. On top of that, I think it was about eight or so of my games were upgraded if you will, to Mac releases. So this was all very good news for me.
Same here, I think I had about 11 games in my library updated with Mac version, and I'm still tempted to pick up some more. I can't exactly hide my credit card from myself or anything, I use it here so often that I memorized all the numbers ages ago! But first, I want to work through as much of my backlog as possible. First up is Shadowman. :)

Edit: Oh yeah, and the CD Projekt site had some info about how several million Mac versions of games have been downloaded so far, they just released some more new financial news, which mentions (according to machine translation) "new projects that publicity is planned for 2014 and which, according to representatives of the company may have a significant impact on the popularity and scale of the service."
Post edited November 16, 2013 by SCPM
Posted November 16, 2013
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dirtyharry50: Speaking of which, yes Original War does look very cool to me especially now that GOG has done the work for lazy bones here by setting it up to run on OS X. :D

This latest round of Mac releases is very nice I think. I had the Kyrandia series on my wish list already so I'm very happy to see them done up for Mac now. I also checked into a couple games that weren't really on my radar including Original War. On top of that, I think it was about eight or so of my games were upgraded if you will, to Mac releases. So this was all very good news for me.
It really is a testament to the power and maturity of WINE that we've gone this far. The last time I got Divine Divinity to work (about a year or so ago), it was through Wineskin, with a much older version of WINE using my external Xquartz system install, and a whole bunch of registry tweaks. The game worked, but it was so fragile that it felt like any change to my system would send it tumbling down like a house of cards.

And really, yeah, get Original War; it's best enjoyed if you've come off of a binge playing a "traditional" RTS/RTT game. I found the game a little difficult first but if you're a seasoned RTS veteran it shouldn't be a problem. Like many games out of Eastern Europe, it really should have gotten more attention when it came out.

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dirtyharry50: You reminded me of something. I was thinking I should post about this round of releases and the sale on the MR gaming forum if nobody else had. I should check on that just to make sure nobody misses out who visits there.
Yeah, though I don't know if it'll do them much good as the sale should be ending soon, right? Still, it wouldn't hurt to spread to word, certainly, as many of the games on sale here are either Mac-compatible, or Mac-friendly through WINE/DOSBox. Hope you changed your passwords by the way - the cracking of the MR forum database really jolted me into some badly needed changing of some of my online habits.
Posted November 16, 2013
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dirtyharry50: This latest round of Mac releases is very nice I think. I had the Kyrandia series on my wish list already so I'm very happy to see them done up for Mac now. I also checked into a couple games that weren't really on my radar including Original War. On top of that, I think it was about eight or so of my games were upgraded if you will, to Mac releases. So this was all very good news for me.
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SCPM: Same here, I think I had about 11 games in my library updated with Mac version, and I'm still tempted to pick up some more. I can't exactly hide my credit card from myself or anything, I use it here so often that I memorized all the numbers ages ago! But first, I want to work through as much of my backlog as possible. First up is Shadowman. :)

Edit: Oh yeah, and the CD Projekt site had some info about how several million Mac versions of games have been downloaded so far, they just released some more new financial news, which mentions (according to machine translation) "new projects that publicity is planned for 2014 and which, according to representatives of the company may have a significant impact on the popularity and scale of the service."
I love it when that happens, when more of my games get free upgrades to Mac versions. But then I always feel compelled to make mention of the fact that there are also some new ones I want now too. That seems to have happened each time.
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dirtyharry50: Speaking of which, yes Original War does look very cool to me especially now that GOG has done the work for lazy bones here by setting it up to run on OS X. :D

This latest round of Mac releases is very nice I think. I had the Kyrandia series on my wish list already so I'm very happy to see them done up for Mac now. I also checked into a couple games that weren't really on my radar including Original War. On top of that, I think it was about eight or so of my games were upgraded if you will, to Mac releases. So this was all very good news for me.
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rampancy: It really is a testament to the power and maturity of WINE that we've gone this far. The last time I got Divine Divinity to work (about a year or so ago), it was through Wineskin, with a much older version of WINE using my external Xquartz system install, and a whole bunch of registry tweaks. The game worked, but it was so fragile that it felt like any change to my system would send it tumbling down like a house of cards.

And really, yeah, get Original War; it's best enjoyed if you've come off of a binge playing a "traditional" RTS/RTT game. I found the game a little difficult first but if you're a seasoned RTS veteran it shouldn't be a problem. Like many games out of Eastern Europe, it really should have gotten more attention when it came out.

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dirtyharry50: You reminded me of something. I was thinking I should post about this round of releases and the sale on the MR gaming forum if nobody else had. I should check on that just to make sure nobody misses out who visits there.
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rampancy: Yeah, though I don't know if it'll do them much good as the sale should be ending soon, right? Still, it wouldn't hurt to spread to word, certainly, as many of the games on sale here are either Mac-compatible, or Mac-friendly through WINE/DOSBox. Hope you changed your passwords by the way - the cracking of the MR forum database really jolted me into some badly needed changing of some of my online habits.
Fortunately, there was already a thread on both sales going on so that's good. I added to it the list of new games just put out for Mac so hopefully people see that and are led into temptation. hehe
Post edited November 16, 2013 by dirtyharry50
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General discussion (archive)Mac Game Update: 34 New Additions(159 posts)(159 posts)
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