Caesar.: For those who were asking what I meant about "proportioned means": from what I've read from non-nationalist-propaganda sources, the incidents have happened with protestors harassing and threatening the police while they were doing their job, not "people peacefully waiting to vote". If this is proven not to be the case, I will gladly take my words back.

Also: voting for independence is not a "human right". The propaganda has been repeating this for months, but it is not.

Caesar.: If you don't think those protestors are nationalists... then you don't know very much about Catalonia. (I don't mean it in a condescending way. I encourage you to research the situation if you're interested about it. This is a textbook example of a nationalist government trying to model a society after their ideology).

muntdefems: The rest of today and the next few days are gonna be really intense and interesting in Catalonia.

Going back right now to my home town to join the people there and try to prevent the ballot boxes from being removed. I hope not to be arrested. :P

Crosmando: No offense, but there isn't many examples in history where a a region has seceded from a country without the permission of the mother country, without some kind of fight taking place. I personally think the idea of secessionism is a downfall spiral because once you guarantee the universal right to self-determination, it means any tiny tribe or region can claim to be a nation, splintering nations into every smaller states like what happened to the former Yugoslavia.

Look at Africa, so many small countries which alone do not have the resources to support their own people, it's so ridiculous that they can't even think up new names for countries so you've got ridiculous situations like "Republic of Congo" and "Democratic Republic of the Congo", or "Niger" and "Nigeria" being two different countries, for God knows what reason. I mean if you can't even think up an original name for your country then you damn well don't deserve to be one.

T.Hodd: No, but freedom of expression is. I could start a poll on whether my county should be come it's own country, but no one would take it seriously and the government wouldn't care.

richlind33: Why are riot police there to begin with, and why in bloody hell do you think that's appropriate? Because you hate separatists?

Caesar.: They are there because riots were to be expected. The nationalist propaganda has been talking for months about how the central government was going to respond with excessive violence. They expected more force and earlier. To be honest, I think they are disappointed the army has not been deployed (they talked about that a lot too).

richlind33: Forget "nationalist propaganda" for the moment. Was the Spanish government really expecting riots, or is that just a convenient pretext for letting national police try to "beat some sense" into the "misguided" civilians? Or is "unlawful" voting now considered rioting?

_ChaosFox_: I'm always rather sceptical of direct democracy when it comes to matters like this, as such single-issue referendums tend to be hijacked by the most emotionally involved parties, disregarded by the general populace and produce only a ill-informed result that is misinterpreted as the "will of the people". Direct democracy seldom ends up well - even seemingly innocuous subjects tend to be hijacked by extreme causes and end up in disaster.

All being said, I think the Scottish referendum was actually conducted in a surprisingly fairly civil and rational manner (the SNP notwithstanding), which is more than can be said about Brexit and this.

I personally have no political horse to back in the Catalan political debate. If it is the genuine and clear will of the Catalan people to be independent (i.e. at least a two thirds majority), then they should have it. But direct democracy should never be a mandate for the tyranny of the slight majority as it was for Brexit. Brexit has made the British look like loony racist idiots (and having been to the UK twice since the Brexit referendum, it's certainly that fraction of the population that control the media and public ear right now) and their reputation on the world stage has suffered as a result. If the Catalans choose to impose independence on the slightest of majorities, they too are going to find themselves with very little support from the international community.

That's not to say I approve of how the Spanish have gone about this. Rajoy's task should have been to mediate, compromise, debate. Instead he's desperately trying to enforce his political sensibilities as opposed to being a representative of his entire people. Solutions are seldom black & white, but Rajoy wants white and the Catalans want black. They see no shades of grey, and that's why they're in the shitstorm they are now. There should have been no concern about the mere holding of a referendum, as it wouldn't have been legally binding. I suspect Rajoy was just worried about the outcome going against him.

They're basically two shades of the same problem called nationalism, a phenomenon that should have died a painful death in 1945.

Caesar.: Of course they were expecting riots. That "convenient pretext to beat some sense" was abandoned after the dictatorship and hopefully will never come back.

Caesar.: Of course they were expecting riots. That "convenient pretext to beat some sense" was abandoned after the dictatorship and hopefully will never come back.

T.Hodd: I wouldn't have expected riots, I'd have expected people trying to vote (Then again I'm not part of the Spanish police force so who knows what they were expecting).

Lin545: Well, I didn't read the article, but they all look pretty peaceful to me with hands up, of various age, unarmed, not physically strong, unmasked, not resisting... while being shot, beaten, rammed, dragged by hair, headstomped, thrown, kicked, pushed?

They don't look like nationalists to me.. Nationalist is someone, who has country ideology literally above everything. Just voting or expressing preference to different flag, does not make one nationalist. But those who commit violence to "protect dignity of flag" - those are nationalists...

Guess, if this is not excessive in your eyes, its because they are not using live ammunition?

CharlesGrey: So they thought beating up up the voters and confiscating the voting ballots would reduce the risk of riots? Surely this is only going to lead to more violence and extremism, especially towards the police forces. What a mess.

PainOfSalvation: ...aggressive and violent, out on the streets...