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General discussionGoG gives middle finger to this Linux user regarding support(165 posts)(165 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 07, 2020
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fr33kSh0w2012: Dude you don't have the type of distractions that I have at home so it isn't possible to make sure to quote I have to be Up and at em at a trillionth of a nanosecond and spitting out answers to questions that make no sense even faster then that (You don't and couldn't understand the sh!t I deal with) So I can't dick around on the forums quoting ANYTHING as I simply DO NOT have the time. (you don't have a parent that screeches at you every 5 seconds to COME HERE THIS INSTANT just so they can ask you a barrage of questions up to 100 even though you are busy)
I can sympathize....I have somewhat similar though not near as bad circumstances of my own to deal with(so I sort of know some of what you're dealing with...if maybe only somewhat).

I mainly only asked for quoting as it helps me see and reply to your posts, as I often find them worth replying to. :)

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fr33kSh0w2012: 1.) My country charges a 10% G.S.T. on things of this nature. (more like 11000%)
10 or 100? As some of those prices were almost double with tax. Also yeah those prices suck...i'm shocked you guys don't tear down your govt and build a new one at this point(I won't talk much more about govts here, though, don't want staff to take notice....we can discuss this bit via PM sometime, though, if you wish).

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fr33kSh0w2012: 2.) You didn't read my reply where I said I didn't HAVE the internet UNTIL 2008 no quick jump online Ebay for me back then all PC trader magazines and yes all Aussie prices are frigging rip offs.
Apoloigies...I have piss poor memory, as I said earlier.

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fr33kSh0w2012: 3.) Thankfully we don't live in that rat infested hell hole anymore
That's good to hear, though i';d build one anyways...what with your luck being what it is and all....just to be safe. ;)

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fr33kSh0w2012: 4.) I still won't touch linux with a 50 foot barge pole because of how sh!t it was back then I couldn't and can't code for sh!t unlike everyone else and all the kiddies can these days.
Fair enough...as for coding...eh, I cannot code either...I tried learning it to make games in the past or go into that career field at some point, though, but it was too daunting.

(BTW, you don't need to mutiquote and split stuff up. Just quote one bit and reply to it all under one quote....it'd make it easier for ya, anyways)
Posted February 07, 2020
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GameRager: ...the easiest Linux OS versions still have a learning curve compared to one who has been used to Windows/etc for years and years.
Sure, all change takes effort. Kids have bikes, but they still want that car when they're old enough for a license. Same thing. A little effort's worth it when you want to go faster ;)

I gave a computer running Ubuntu (10.04) to my 87 year old grandfather, and he'd never really used a computer before. He started with a web browser and was playing solitaire and checking his email within the week.Thankfully he never made it to Facebook... but he still managed to find plenty of cat videos. People pick things up quick -- it's just a bit harder when they're stuck in their ways.

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GameRager: That's one thing I dislike about Linux, so many types to choose from and there's pluses and minuses to weigh with each.
Are there too many flavors of ice cream too? lol.

Seriously though, it's generally all the same. Some distros come with bigger training wheels. But unless you want to dive in by building your first kernel, the starter options are a pretty short list, and they've still got the power to do just about anything an normal user would want.

Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora.

That's it. That's your wheelhouse. Don't get smooth-talked into hopping onto Manjaro. Blow off Zorin OS and Elementary OS -- sure, they look friendly to Windows and Mac users respectively, but the community support's not there.

I ran Debian Sid for years -- not quite bleeding edge, but close enough to get dirty. When I switched to CentOS for work the only real changes were a different package manager (debs vs rpms) and a different underlying network configuration -- neither of which an average user would see today. Now, when you jump over to Arch, sure, you can hurt yourself if you're not ready... so don't.

Linux Mint's my daily driver these days. It's got Ubuntu LTS compatibility for the games and it's easy to teach others on, yet still suits me fine for work -- Java, C++, C#, Python, JavaScript, Unity3D, Blender, etc. The tools and editors are all readily available -- heck, I even run Microsoft Visual Studio Code on here. It's not like Google Chrome or Mozilla Thunderbird are unavailable to Linux users. We work with the same stuff... it just usually runs faster for us ;)

Unfortunately Adobe's still something of a hold-out, but we'll get there.

Anyway, it's not about the number of distros. It's about basic literacy -- when you understand one distro the rest kinda fall into place. Just pick one and go.

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GameRager: Actual serious question: How can you expect people to not steal from those who make such if no one patents/etc anything to do with Linux? That is one of the downsides to making it free for all.
It's not a downside... look how many Mac users we helped!

Honestly, it's not about theft, it's about profiting from someone else's work without giving them due credit -- just would have been nice if they'd mentioned the project's influence.

Most of us do this because we really enjoy it and enjoy helping others. We want our work to get out there and get used. The point is to make computing better for everyone. That's not to say we don't have day jobs. But as a developer you just kinda know when something should be free or paid, and it's nice to be part of a community where people actually have the common good in mind.


• P.S. -- I think we've deviated enough. I'm dropping this line of conversation and unhijacking this thread ;)
Post edited February 07, 2020 by xixas
Posted February 07, 2020
low rated
This is just me replying(no need to reply here)....I list options on how to possibly continue this chat(if one is interested) near the end of this reply....thanks again for the chat btw:

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xixas: Sure, all change takes effort. Kids have bikes, but they still want that car when they're old enough for a license. Same thing. A little effort's worth it when you want to go faster ;)
This, to me though, is less about going from a bike to a car, and more about only needing a cheap car to get from A to B and someone suggests they switch to a race car.....for some that cheapo car is good enough as they are used to it and it does it's job.....it's the same with Windows for most, i'd expect.

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xixas: I gave a computer running Ubuntu (10.04) to my 87 year old grandfather, and he'd never really used a computer before. He started with a web browser and was playing solitaire and checking his email within the week.Thankfully he never made it to Facebook... but he still managed to find plenty of cat videos. People pick things up quick -- it's just a bit harder when they're stuck in their ways.
True, but as I said above, some might be ok & be ok with using ANY OS....not just Linux. :)

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xixas: Are there too many flavors of ice cream too? lol.

Seriously though, it's generally all the same. Some distros come with bigger training wheels. But unless you want to dive in by building your first kernel, the starter options are a pretty short list, and they've still got the power to do just about anything an normal user would want.

Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora.
Maybe...there's a saying that fits well, I think: "Too many cooks spoil the broth"...i.e. there are too many distros/flavors fighting for support(from those that help build/mod them) and attention from an already small user base. Imo, Linux would be doing much better if they unified into a few distros(as you listed in this post) and stuck only to them.

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xixas: That's it. That's your wheelhouse. Don't get smooth-talked into hopping onto Manjaro. Blow off Zorin OS and Elementary OS -- sure, they look friendly to Windows and Mac users respectively, but the community support's not there.
As you said, there are distros/flavors with not much support, likely due to there being so many to begin with.

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xixas: Honestly, it's not about theft, it's about profiting from someone else's work without giving them due credit -- just would have been nice if they'd mentioned the project's influence.
I agree a mention would be nice, but that is what happens when work is made available to all....companies who care more about money than people don't have to legally mention who made what if they nabbed it for free off the net. :\

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xixas: Most of us do this because we really enjoy it and enjoy helping others. We want our work to get out there and get used. The point is to make computing better for everyone. That's not to say we don't have day jobs. But as a developer you just kinda know when something should be free or paid, and it's nice to be part of a community where people actually have the common good in mind.
Sounds good.

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xixas: • P.S. -- I think we've deviated enough. I'm dropping this line of conversation and unhijacking this thread ;)
Yup....feel free to hit me up via PM sometime or we can also hit up my offtopic threads if you ever want to continue this chat....have a good one. *waves* :)
Post edited February 07, 2020 by GameRager
Posted February 07, 2020
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GameRager: People also don't like needing to relearn new commands for various things as well, which one would have to do with most versions of linux.

And then there's the fact that not every game runs in linux, and one needs to mess with some stuff to get some games to run....this is GOG, where many buy games to just install and play out of the box....just look at how many times we get threads asking how to make simple tweaks to some games. That alone should show how going to linux(any version) is not desirable for many people.

Heck, we';ve had how many flavors of linux for how long, yet people aren't leaving MS in droves....even with Win10 being a thing....that alone should show how many people value convenience over most else.
I kinda went through all these, admittedly in 2 lengthy posts, but still.

1. There are distros out there where if you wanted to never use the terminal for whatever reason (it's scaaryyy), you actually might manage it (think MacOs here). Ubuntu is what I'm thinking of.

2. If people can muck about with mods, get older games running on modern PCs, get newer games running optimally, troubleshoot games, try out mods and make them run - then you already have all the skills you need to game on Linux, in case of things not working out-of-the-box. Why? Because the procedure and 'hassle' is the same - google stuff, fix stuff. If that didn't work, delve deeper into forums for a fix, or if your issue has not occurred, ask in a forum for support and wait for a fix from the community. Apply said fix. Done. Same thing.

At the risk of repeating myself, people know right, that these days you can just click 'Install' and then press the big button that says 'Play' and you can play games on Linux, right? Lutris for example is specifically made for people who don't want to muck about with WINE prefixes, configurations, tricks or tweaks, workarounds etc. They've done all that for you, for each game. Note to self - donate moar money to them.

3. Microsoft has the dominant (pretty much monopolistic) market share because it essentially has stomped out all the competition in various brute force ways. Listen to the people here for instance - Microsoft has contributed nothing to them, they don't owe Microsoft anything, they paid a lot for a stagnant product that still has a chance to break, and is in many ways inferior to its open source competitor, yet people rush to defend it.

How has it stomped out the competition? Well think about it. When is the last time you saw a laptop/desktop ship with Ubuntu+? There's a 99% chance you bought Win10 by not only convenience but by forced necessity. This probably happened at an early age, so you've been programmed to operate with it for years upon years. Of course there's a lot of reluctance and blind brand loyalty associated with it, due to this. But if Ubuntu's entire point is to make the transition as smooth as possible from Windows and MacOS, then one wonders why people are still clinging on to their assumptions about how user-unfriendly Linux is?
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rojimboo: I think I understand your point though that it's a bit of a hassIe, which is why so few use Linux as a main box. I agree, that that perception at least is the main reason why Linux usage is so low.
Yup.
I don't think you understood what I meant. I specifically mentioned the *perception* that Linux is a pain to get running / play games on, is the main reason it's penetration is so low. Not that that is actually true.
Nope, no forcing.....everyone should be allowed to use any OS they want, and an OSs market share should rise and fall on it's own merits & not any forcing. :)
Ok then - stop forcing new PCs to come with Win10 then - or stop forcing people to pay a mandatory Redmond tax if they want to acquire PCs or do anything on PCs - or stop forcing games/devs to use Microsoft's proprietary gaming APIs lest they be cutoff from consoles/markets...etc etc.

If you wanna level the playing field it goes both ways.

And just to clarify (yet again), I did not say put a gun to your head, to use Linux. I said offer it in schools and universities, let it come as the first option, pre-installed, like Windows currently does, and let it go from there. You could still get Windows or MacOS, but it would be more of a hassle for the entity to provide it.

I.e. the same thing that happens today with Windows. You called it 'forcing' and 'no choice' to use anything but the desired OS. I guess you could see it that way. Not sure why Microsoft gets away with it, but Linus the Penguin dude can't. For free.
Posted February 07, 2020
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More random replies @GameRager ;)

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GameRager: This, to me though, is less about going from a bike to a car, and more about only needing a cheap car to get from A to B and someone suggests they switch to a race car.....for some that cheapo car is good enough as they are used to it and it does it's job.....it's the same with Windows for most, i'd expect.
Ok, um, that's a pretty poor analogy ;) but let's try to run with it for a bit, for giggles.

Reverse the two - the race car obviously costs a lot more money than the cheap car, and is completely overkill/loaded with unnecessary frivolous junk and you cannot customise the pure-bred Lamborghini even a little bit. You're locked in to proprietary car shops for ludicrously overpriced spare parts, for years.

What's worse is that, someone convinced you that you *require* and *need* a Lamborghini to travel from A to B, and you bought it. Not only that, you're so convinced that no other car, especially a cheaper one, could ever be enough to get to point B, without a Lamborghini.

This was fun. *giggles*

Maybe...there's a saying that fits well, I think: "Too many cooks spoil the broth"...i.e. there are too many distros/flavors fighting for support(from those that help build/mod them) and attention from an already small user base. Imo, Linux would be doing much better if they unified into a few distros(as you listed in this post) and stuck only to them.
Most distros are actually based on just a handful of um, proto-distros, should I say. All the *Ubuntu ones, are offshoots of, you guessed it, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, xubuntu etc. it's sort of in the name even lol. The actual heart of the OS, the Linux kernel, is maintained and updated periodically, and then each distro dev group, takes that updated kernel, and builds around it.

There is less of a difference between distros of Linux, than say between Win10 and macOS. Hopping from Ubuntu to Kubuntu is almost like changing your theme on your desktop from blueish light to reddish dark, with some app names called differently and some other bips and bops that you don't really even notice. There really is a tiny learning curve jumping between those distros in the same 'family'.

At the end of the day, there aren't THAT many distros out there, especially for people migrating from a lifetime of Windows. It may seem like fragmenting the Linux market, in terms of product, but also talent/devs and support, is a bad idea. But actually it's not too bad, because that talent/those devs can contribute to the overall Linux project anytime they want - they don't have to focus on their own tiny corner of a distro only. When they find a bug / introduce a new feature, it doesn't have to remain in just their own distro, but other distros can use it/adapt to it, too.

I also sometimes wish there was one major commercial entity selling and profiting and being the face of Linux for PR and marketing and being the voice etc and and and...did I say and? Ubuntu and Canonical are probably the closest to that currently. Yet you can get a fully functional OS from them, that never nags you about donating money to them, ever. And I think that's the difference between MS and Linux - profiteering. If Canonical were to do those things I spoke abotu, it would stop being a Linux distributor - it would just become the thing they disliked in the first place.
Posted February 07, 2020
The number of Linux Distros out there has been the biggest hurdle for many people I have talked to about Linux. There is a line chart out there which shows all the different versions of Linux and that chart alone has scared people away from Linux as they just got confused about even why there are so many and figuring each one did something different (despite being explained that the differences are minimal as the only real difference comes down to what the distro is based on such as Debian or Arch).

They got intimidated very quickly and chose to stick with Windows since that was familiar to them, and that was just because they saw that line chart. They pretty much ignored any advantage they have gotten from making the switch to Linux because they just kept getting the mental image of that chart in there head.
Posted February 07, 2020
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Assuming your number is correct. $60 isn't nothing, its even more with a lower end PC. It can also vary according to contracts since Microsoft can use that leverage to tilt other things in their favor. To say "give us a monopoly with x and we'll give you a discount."
Say you're outrageous enough to put together you're own system, or your windows is old and you need to update.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?id=pcat17071&st=windows%2010
$140 for basic
$200 for "professional"
But what can the average user understand about spending another $140, you can't expect them to grasp money. So really spending $140 and free are the same thing, right?

And who needs privacy on their own PC, what does it matters to the average person if Microsoft etc. is all up in their business. I mean people just need to appreciate that we are all commodities to be bought and sold, right?
Posted February 07, 2020
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myconv: Assuming your number is correct. $60 isn't nothing, its even more with a lower end PC. It can also vary according to contracts since Microsoft can use that leverage to tilt other things in their favor. To say "give us a monopoly with x and we'll give you a discount."
Say you're outrageous enough to put together you're own system, or your windows is old and you need to update.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?id=pcat17071&st=windows%2010
$140 for basic
$200 for "professional"
But what can the average user understand about spending another $140, you can't expect them to grasp money. So really spending $140 and free are the same thing, right?

And who needs privacy on their own PC, what does it matters to the average person if Microsoft etc. is all up in their business. I mean people just need to appreciate that we are all commodities to be bought and sold, right?
In what world do you think the average user is building their own computer? That segment of the market is single digit percentages at best. The problem that I’m having in this discussion is that you seem to believe that you are an average computer user in the sense that all your comparison is based on people making the same deductions you make. Basic stats for OS adoption and prebuilt device adoption show that you aren’t an average user.

So while I agree that $60 isn’t nothing. It’s also a hidden fee. Nowhere on the sticker at Best Buy do they give you a price break down of what the OS costs, and if we’re being realistic the vast majority of buyers will not question the cost associated with it.
Posted February 07, 2020
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xixas: It sounds like you started off with some due diligence and followed the usual channels. That's good.

You also might want to take a look at The "Judas does this run in Wine" thread. That's where a number of us try to get as-of-yet unported games working in Wine. Its more of a technical thread, so I might advise against going in there to rant, but it's a good place for troubleshooting very specific issues (bring your logs and a well documented list of everything you tried).

Specifically (back to Civ IV), adamhm's initial install notes were posted here , though they are mostly a condensed version of his Civilization IV for linux thread.

Adamhm has been a very active contributor here when it comes to Linux gaming. Try not to get frustrated by a lack of response. We all just do this in our free time.

As someone who regularly writes lengthy Wine tutorials and helps troubleshoot Linux and Mac compatibility in the GOG forums, I'll just say that it's not unusual for it to take a long time for a thread to come together. Heck, I've got an X3 thread that took over 2 years to resolve. But working a bit with GOG staff and a number of other users, we kept at it and finally got it there.
Well, you could please try helping here
https://www.gog.com/forum/sid_meiers_civilization_series/civilization_iv_for_linux (see last post)
Or here
https://www.gog.com/forum/sid_meiers_civilization_series/civ4_on_linux_and_installing_mod_issues
Or here
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/where_is_the_linux_forum, not a direct request in general forum but still indicated I needed help and still got no where.
I am pretty sure I posted another request for help in general forum but don't know where the thread is/can't find it.

And multiple posts and threads on civfanatic forum including directly in the mod thread, even earlier than these.

As far as Adamhm, I PM'd them on Jan 10 directly requesting help, which is near a month ago, with zero reply. I have no problem with waiting, but this long with no reply at all suggests I am never going to get any help. I also saw Adamhm as online just yesterday, so it feels like for some reason I don't fathom, I am being ignored.
Post edited February 07, 2020 by myconv
Posted February 07, 2020
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xixas: Aside from the few issues we've both listed against Windows, I'm still surprised to hear any level of system administrator say that. The things that make Linux an ideal server platform also tend to make it an ideal desktop environment:

• authoritative and trusted software sources (huge centralized signed application repositories)
• single-file binary-with-libraries app distribution (appimage, flatpak, snaps)
• elective system updates
• built-in firewall (and VPN with the latest kernel)
• simple backups (rsync)
• point-to-point encrypted communication (ssh tunneling)
• running applications on remote systems (xhost and the like)
• per-user/group file and application attributes and permissioning
• process job signaling (sigint, sigterm, etc.)
• (much) better memory and thread management
• (much) higher port connection count
• runs on just about any hardware made in the last 25 years

And at the same time, I have yet to see any Windows user that couldn't comfortably navigate the Cinnamon or Gnome2 desktop environments. The most common problem I've noticed with brand new Linux users is wrapping their head around the idea that they don't have open a web browser to download their drivers and applications.

I enjoy gaming as much as the next guy, but having to work a little harder to get a couple games to run is nothing compared to the time Linux saves me on a daily basis in general productivity.
I didn't really make my initial case well. There are a bunch of great things about Linux, I agree. If you had read all the comments I've made you'd see that I'm speaking about it in terms of how I view an "average end user" would perceive the cost/benefit analysis of switching. And an average user just won't use or care about any of the stuff you mentioned.

It seems to me that the problem here is that you guys are power users and therefore assume everyone is a power user and will love all the stuff you love about Linux. Whereas I've spent years supporting end users who can't open Outlook if they don't have a desktop icon. And the people in between those extremes just want a computer that opens a browser, loads the games they bought on Big Fish, and can install TurboTax once a year. And if Turbotax says it only works on windows than they're only buying windows based devices cause that's what they were told they had to use.
Post edited February 07, 2020 by firstpastthepost
Posted February 07, 2020
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firstpastthepost: In what world do you think the average user is building their own computer? That segment of the market is single digit percentages at best. The problem that I’m having in this discussion is that you seem to believe that you are an average computer user in the sense that all your comparison is based on people making the same deductions you make. Basic stats for OS adoption and prebuilt device adoption show that you aren’t an average user.
I think it's clear people need to define some parameters when they discuss these things.

For instance as an example, you are talking from the point of view of the whole PC user market (mainly office/productivity related) vs people here or gamers, or indeed anyone below the age of 30. An 'average user' is fine and all, but consider the place we are in, where we are talking, and how this thread started in the first place.

That's one of the problems. We can go completely off-topic and talk about tangential things that each of us knows a lot about, or we could develop some emphathy skills and try and relate to one another.

Almost every gamer I know, is building their own computer or at the very least, upgrading parts and installing them themselves. Of course this is anecdotal, but I'll be very surprised if upgrading graphics cards with gamers relies on 3rd party stores to do it for them, for the majority. Really surprised in fact, considering how often a gamer has to do that. I mean, this article attempted to do some very loose analysis based on GPU sales, and came up with a number of at least 3Million builders/upgraders per year rising a lot each year (with some pretty big error bars though). In terms of PC gamers, that number is huge, consider that Witcher 3 sold what, at most 10million on the PC market?

https://www.walrax.com/articles/4/how-many-people-build-their-own-computer-each-year?

Note how gamers constitute a tiny percent of the PC desktop market - nobody is even arguing that. THen again nobody wanted to bring Linux to everyone and their mother instantly, right now, forced at gunpoint. That's just not gonna happen. It's a bit of a strawman to even argue that.

However, restrict this to people under the age of 35, that are naturally more computer literate, especially the younger generation these days, and maybe go even further and restrict this to gamers, and suddenly your demographic doesn't even resemble those old farts sitting in an office chair, crunching numbers in Excel. Possibly managing Outlook to read and send emails.

They may be the average user through sheer numbers, but to use that as an arguing point that Linux adoption will likely not happen due to REASONS, is a bit disingenious. We should at least focus on the people who can open Outlook without having a desktop icon for it on Windows...
Posted February 07, 2020
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rojimboo: snip
It's fine if you want to set new parameters for the market segment we're talking about, but if you go back and look at all the previous comments we were always speaking in general terms. I took that to mean end users in general and that was clear in all my comments. There's no reason that talking about this on a game forum would mean that we shouldn't discuss general adoption (and you say I'm making straw man arguments).

This is all feeling pretty pointless to discuss at this point. You don't like the numbers so you move the goal post. And when you move the goal post you're still moving it in a way that doesn't actually help you in any real way. Sure we can talk about people under the age of 30.... it still a small percentage of those people not using prebuilt computers, so even moving the goal post doesn't disprove my point.

Also, I'm not the one being disingenuous here bud. You keep ignoring the reasons I've given in favour of pretending I've given none... that's pretty disingenuous. You're just not having a good faith discussion here and I can't tell if that's because of your bias or if you're just being obtuse.... either way I think I'm done.
Posted February 07, 2020
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wolfsite: The number of Linux Distros out there has been the biggest hurdle for many people I have talked to about Linux. There is a line chart out there which shows all the different versions of Linux and that chart alone has scared people away from Linux as they just got confused about even why there are so many and figuring each one did something different (despite being explained that the differences are minimal as the only real difference comes down to what the distro is based on such as Debian or Arch).

They got intimidated very quickly and chose to stick with Windows since that was familiar to them, and that was just because they saw that line chart. They pretty much ignored any advantage they have gotten from making the switch to Linux because they just kept getting the mental image of that chart in there head.
I guess that's one way to go about it.

Indeed if you google 'best linux distro' or 'which linux distro', ignore the link results, and go to images - you will find this tree diagram made 7 years ago circulating on Reddit/4chan of all places

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/s3923/a_handy_guide_to_choosing_your_linux_distro_made/

Is that the one you mean? Note how that tree can be 90% ignored, if you are a newcomer to Linux (follow the line that says 'never used Linux').

I however have a different version of events to put to you.

People google 'best linux distro', click on some of top search results, maybe even read the immensely popular recent Forbes articles about one man's discovery journey into migrating to Linux, and usually go with some Ubuntu derivative, or whatever, something quite user friendly. And they live happily ever after.

OR

They ask people. And people respond - usually with the same recommendations for someone who has never used Linux, depending on the person's needs and requirements/background. And they live happily ever after.

The end.

No need to needlessly make it more complicated than it is.
Posted February 07, 2020
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firstpastthepost: You're just not having a good faith discussion here and I can't tell if that's because of your bias or if you're just being obtuse.... either way I think I'm done.
Here we go again - that didn't take long.

By the way, it may seem like I'm moving the goalposts, but actually if you define and set parameters for the discussion for the very first time or at all, it's not changing the rules mid-game - it's just telling people what the rules were in the first place.

You were the one who went off on a tangent and made this about 'the average desktop user' in the PC market, i.e. your typical office drone, when nobody even mentioned that. Some people played along, me included, but really I've been trying to drag this into something more relevant since the beginning - gaming/gamers on Linux. Notice the thread we are in? No? Thought so.

But please, go ahead and go home happy in the knowledge that you were right - most old farts will never learn to use Linux. Good job.

Yay.

How this is relevant to the discussion of how Linux is superior in almost every way in 2020 to Win10, is beyond me. It's like your main argument is 'PC illiterate people will never migrate to Linux, therefore it's awful!'. Well ummm....no. That's not how it works. The matter of adoption of an OS, and the various reasons and arguments for and against that have almost nothing to do with the fact, that in terms of almost every metric, one OS is superior than the other.

Nevermind the misinformation at display here, regarding what a 'hassle' using Linux is, even today. It just shows that even amongst the PC literate, not everything is fine and good, especially not settled.
Posted February 07, 2020
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firstpastthepost: You're just not having a good faith discussion here and I can't tell if that's because of your bias or if you're just being obtuse.... either way I think I'm done.
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rojimboo: Here we go again - that didn't take long.
What do you mean "here we go again"? I didn't insult you, in fact you're the one who's being insulting in your last couple of comments.

You're also saying I said things I didn't say and pretending what I said was an insult when it wasn't. Which makes me think that I'm right. You aren't interested in a good faith discussion. You've made that abundantly clear with your hostility, your clear bias, your pretending I said things I didn't say, and your ignoring the things I did say.

The parameters I was working within were clear from the statements that I made. You're the one choosing to ignore that. Nothing I said is misinformation. I didn't say it was a hassle to run Linux. I said it was a hassle to run some windows apps in Linux... which is just true. You are the one spreading misinformation. Period. Pretending that Linux can run whatever anyone wants it to is pure fantasy, and that's what you're selling.

At least I was willing to apologize when I insulted you, and I didn't do it deliberately. You onl the other hand are just doubling down on the insults, deliberately.... again, not good faith.

It's cool that you're passionate about Linux. I can respect that. What I can't respect is someone being unwilling to have a good faith discussion about it. Have a good day. I hope you get your whale Ahab.
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