It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Radial menus are an awesome idea to let the guys that want to use a pad to get into spacesims, already House of The dying Sun uses this system to great effect.
It's also great for HOTAS users as a radial menu would make complex comm menus viable, with the X-wing series I usually map the shift keystroke to a button and use it to give orders but the X-wing Alliance and Freespace comm menus are a tough nut to crack as they have too many variables to be properly configured on a controller without taking up space, even in a HOTAS with multiple function modes it's still clunkier than reaching for the keyboard.

Of course the option to map every function to a hotkey should always be there, HoTDS has a really great option menu that also lets bind more function to a single key or axis, like using the fire key to select stuff from the pause menu.

Being able to interact with the cockpits using the mouse I feel it's a bit superflous in a spacesim, that feature is necessary in Falcon 4 or similar games to avoid having to use three or four keyboards for commands that are to be used only in non combat moments (immersion too of course but I think that's the main reason), which is not a problem here as if you take out comms the commands don't eve really cover the entire keyboard.
Post edited August 22, 2016 by Det_Bullock
avatar
Azrapse: Thanks for the insightful post!

Currently, the game has a cockpit interior to at 1:1 scale with the ship exterior, (and of course, matches the geometry of the ship exterior). I don't know how claustrophobic the Y-Wing cockpit will feel in VR. It kind of feels so in the movies. But the BTL-S3 Y-Wing is a two-seater, so it should have plenty of room behind the pilot for the optional turret gunner (an optional coop mode I wish to implement some day)

Also, everything in the game follows a 1:1 scale with their "real world" counterparts.
That gave us problems already with long distances and loss of precision with the game engine float coordinates, but we solved that already by making the game player-centrist (the world moves around the player, instead of the player moving around the world). Now I am happy that I didn't choose to solve that by scaling down the world, that was the other possibility. That would have given us problems with VR, as you said.

The cockpit I made has only the front dashboard detailed. The rest are flat surfaces that I didn't bother detailing because they weren't going to be used at this stage. However, the game is supposed to allow the pilot to look around, we had to create the full interior sooner or later anyway. Also, the gunner station should have some detailing for later, but which instruments the gunner needs is something that is yet to be determined.

I am not sure how will we do with all the dead-angles, though. In the original game, when you look at a direction where the line of sight is blocked by the cockpit body, instead, you are shown some kind of monitor displaying what looks to be the footage of a camera mounted on the exterior of the cockpit, towards that angle.
For example, if you look up by pressing the keypad 5, since the Y-Wing ceiling is totally solid, you get a monitor labeled "UP".
How can that be done with VR, I don't know. I can think on solutions, like making the cockpit become transparent, like in the "Contact" movie. But that sounds too otherworldly.
A panel that slides don't in front of the pilot's eyes showing the view outside? It would look okay on a flat monitor, but I bet it would be disconcerting in VR stereoscopic view.
Sure thing. I can't take all the credit though, I just happened to be lucky enough to know someone who knows VR. Sounds like it should work easier than expected. Assuming my friend didn't forget to mention anything, then you'll have a lot less to worry about on the VR-front. And I definitely like the idea of a cooperative Y-Wing crew (something I've only ever experienced briefly in Battlefront 1).

One question though, wouldn't making the game player-centric cause some issues for multiplayer? I seem to recall Totally Games experiencing similar issues when they started working on X-Wing vs Tie Fighter: [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_vs._TIE_Fighter]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_vs._TIE_Fighter[/url]

Also not sure if you can see the keyboard in VR (I get the impression you'd have to have a pop up display either in the game or through the VR's software interface). I'm not sure how vital that would be though, since it's fairly common for players to have to learn most of their controls and memorize it a bit.
Post edited August 22, 2016 by ender910
avatar
Azrapse: Thanks for the insightful post!

Currently, the game has a cockpit interior to at 1:1 scale with the ship exterior, (and of course, matches the geometry of the ship exterior). I don't know how claustrophobic the Y-Wing cockpit will feel in VR. It kind of feels so in the movies. But the BTL-S3 Y-Wing is a two-seater, so it should have plenty of room behind the pilot for the optional turret gunner (an optional coop mode I wish to implement some day)

Also, everything in the game follows a 1:1 scale with their "real world" counterparts.
That gave us problems already with long distances and loss of precision with the game engine float coordinates, but we solved that already by making the game player-centrist (the world moves around the player, instead of the player moving around the world). Now I am happy that I didn't choose to solve that by scaling down the world, that was the other possibility. That would have given us problems with VR, as you said.

The cockpit I made has only the front dashboard detailed. The rest are flat surfaces that I didn't bother detailing because they weren't going to be used at this stage. However, the game is supposed to allow the pilot to look around, we had to create the full interior sooner or later anyway. Also, the gunner station should have some detailing for later, but which instruments the gunner needs is something that is yet to be determined.

I am not sure how will we do with all the dead-angles, though. In the original game, when you look at a direction where the line of sight is blocked by the cockpit body, instead, you are shown some kind of monitor displaying what looks to be the footage of a camera mounted on the exterior of the cockpit, towards that angle.
For example, if you look up by pressing the keypad 5, since the Y-Wing ceiling is totally solid, you get a monitor labeled "UP".
How can that be done with VR, I don't know. I can think on solutions, like making the cockpit become transparent, like in the "Contact" movie. But that sounds too otherworldly.
A panel that slides don't in front of the pilot's eyes showing the view outside? It would look okay on a flat monitor, but I bet it would be disconcerting in VR stereoscopic view.
avatar
ender910: Sure thing. I can't take all the credit though, I just happened to be lucky enough to know someone who knows VR. Sounds like it should work easier than expected. Assuming my friend didn't forget to mention anything, then you'll have a lot less to worry about on the VR-front. And I definitely like the idea of a cooperative Y-Wing crew (something I've only ever experienced briefly in Battlefront 1).

One question though, wouldn't making the game player-centric cause some issues for multiplayer? I seem to recall Totally Games experiencing similar issues when they started working on X-Wing vs Tie Fighter: [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_vs._TIE_Fighter]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_vs._TIE_Fighter[/url]

Also not sure if you can see the keyboard in VR (I get the impression you'd have to have a pop up display either in the game or through the VR's software interface). I'm not sure how vital that would be though, since it's fairly common for players to have to learn most of their controls and memorize it a bit.
VR with a keyboard is impossible, either a HOTAS or a gamepad are necessary as you can tell the buttons by touch on those, games like House of The Dying Sun use radial menus also because of this, it's a way to guarantee that every control is on the game paeripheral of choice without needing to use the keyboard so that you can play in VR without hitting the wrong button.

The problem with XvT was mostly that the dos games used the old trick of making every thing else move and having the player be still to free CPU resources, they had to rework the engine so that player movement was real to make multiplayer viable. Apart from some tweaks to the flight engine and projectile speed the gameplay is more or less unaltered from Tie Fighter.
Post edited August 22, 2016 by Det_Bullock
avatar
ender910: One question though, wouldn't making the game player-centric cause some issues for multiplayer? I seem to recall Totally Games experiencing similar issues when they started working on X-Wing vs Tie Fighter: [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_vs._TIE_Fighter]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_vs._TIE_Fighter[/url]
Not really. It's a little hard to explain, but the game logic isn't player - centric. Only the visual stuff is. That will, hopefully, be no problem in multi-player.
avatar
Det_Bullock: VR with a keyboard is impossible, either a HOTAS or a gamepad are necessary as you can tell the buttons by touch on those, games like House of The Dying Sun use radial menus also because of this, it's a way to guarantee that every control is on the game paeripheral of choice without needing to use the keyboard so that you can play in VR without hitting the wrong button.
Ah, yeah you're right. When I think of VR I get stuck in the same mindset that a player's going to be looking in the usual direction of where the monitor is. And because VR specific peripherals are still so experimental and not really standardized... HOTAS and controllers are pretty much the only viable devices right now. (At least for what's going to be commonly available)

avatar
Azrapse: Not really. It's a little hard to explain, but the game logic isn't player - centric. Only the visual stuff is. That will, hopefully, be no problem in multi-player.
Ah, fair enough. I was kind of curious because of just how familiar and relevant that detail sounded when I first read that in your post.
Yesterday I drew two sketches of how the briefing room could look like.
The DOS-version looks quite claustrophobic and the Windows-version too blue and its map feels tagged on.

So I came up with these, borrowing elements from X-Wing DOS, X-Wing Windows and X-Wing Alliance.
I think the color scheme of either X-Wing DOS or X-Wing Alliance would fit nicely since the interiors of X-Wing Windows look too oppressing.

Keep in mind that these are rough ideas, so the elements aren't really scaled correctly.

https://abload.de/img/briefingconceptbirdvi8oov9.jpg[/img]

https://abload.de/img/briefingconceptfirstpbioq2.jpg[/img]
Post edited August 26, 2016 by FekLeyrTarg
I never thought about that before, but you're absolutely right - the briefing rooms are seemingly quite small in the DOS versions. It's like briefing in a supply cupboard, as if Ackbar would start grumbling before every briefing:
"Damn it, the big briefing room upstairs has been block-booked all week by Brian again, so we'll just have to settle for this room... what's this used for normally, droid manicures? Anyway, here's your briefing on today's mission, titled 'Operation Certain Death'...
avatar
scotsdezmond: I never thought about that before, but you're absolutely right - the briefing rooms are seemingly quite small in the DOS versions. It's like briefing in a supply cupboard, as if Ackbar would start grumbling before every briefing:

"Damn it, the big briefing room upstairs has been block-booked all week by Brian again, so we'll just have to settle for this room... what's this used for normally, droid manicures? Anyway, here's your briefing on today's mission, titled 'Operation Certain Death'...
avatar
scotsdezmond:
Good one. :D

Assuming XWVM would handle interiors like WC:Flat Universe, the seats could be randomly taken by other pilots registered in the game. The game would only need appropiate pilot models.
It still begs the question if XWVM should either allow custom pilot portraits or handle it like the DOS-Versions did.

A few years ago, XWAUP forum member Reizomonje figured out how the portraits algorythm works in the DOS-versions:
http://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3008/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10859
Considering Star Wars space battles were modeled after WWII aircraft warfare, it seems rather appropriate that the briefing room be a bit cramped. You ever see the interior of a WWII era aircraft carrier briefing room? I got the chance to tour the USS Midway in San Diego a few years back and they're not exactly spacious.

In the movies the only briefing rooms we see are in Episode IV on Yavin's base, and Return of the Jedi in an Officer's Briefing on Home One. The individual briefing rooms for each fighter squadron, even on a Mon Cal, were undoubtedly much smaller and more cramped. Personally, I would lean more towards the DOS style rooms, maybe even a bit more cluttered with flight gear, spare R2 parts, etc.

Then again, I'm always in FotG thought mode, where we throw out anything and everything that wasn't in the original trilogy and that isn't necessarily your philosophy here.

Anyways, here's a few pictures for reference:
Attachments:
dsc01311.jpg (176 Kb)
midway-9.jpg (268 Kb)
img_4574.jpg (284 Kb)
I always wondered... are Dodonna and Ackbar really there at the briefing room, behind a lectern, or are those just their holograms, and those are hologram projectors?
I wondered that because the thing over their heads that is similar to the lectern looks a bit unnecessary if it is just a lamp.
avatar
Azrapse: I always wondered... are Dodonna and Ackbar really there at the briefing room, behind a lectern, or are those just their holograms, and those are hologram projectors?
I wondered that because the thing over their heads that is similar to the lectern looks a bit unnecessary if it is just a lamp.
Good question. I also meant to comment that there's no way that it would be reasonable for Ackbar (and likely Dodonna as well) to be personally present in any of these individual fighter squadron briefings. While in the real world such briefings are led by those down the chain of command, in Star Wars I think it's reasonable to assume the briefing could be given by hologram.

Maybe the broad mission overview would be given by Ackbar/Dodonna via hologram, and then the squadron's detailed personalized orders and Q/A would be handled by a live officer present.
A very interesting point about the briefing room beim cramped. I never thought about that.

Maybe the design I came up with can be tweaked to be much smaller and cramped. Or maybe I'll come up with something based entirely on the DOS briefing room.

Edit:
Ok, I've made something differently:
I used the briefing room of X-Wing-DOS and made a few tweaks to it, like changing the lectern and coming up with how the back part could look like. Otherwise I stayed true to the original this time.

https://abload.de/img/briefingconcept2birdvkjs2y.jpg[/img]
Post edited August 27, 2016 by FekLeyrTarg
avatar
FekLeyrTarg: A very interesting point about the briefing room beim cramped. I never thought about that.

Maybe the design I came up with can be tweaked to be much smaller and cramped. Or maybe I'll come up with something based entirely on the DOS briefing room.

Edit:
Ok, I've made something differently:
I used the briefing room of X-Wing-DOS and made a few tweaks to it, like changing the lectern and coming up with how the back part could look like. Otherwise I stayed true to the original this time.

https://abload.de/img/briefingconcept2birdvkjs2y.jpg[/img]
I like this version more, too.
It makes sense for the briefing group in ROTJ to be big and spacious. It was supposed to be the biggest operation ever made by the Alliance, and involved many flight groups and capital ships.
However, for the kind of missions that are carried out in X-Wing, something more intimate seems more believable.

About the lectern/hologram subject, I like the idea that the summary presentation is given by Dodonna or Ackbar via hologram, then the flight officer provides the background text.
It is actually like that also in the movie, where Mon Mothma introduces the mission, then Ackbar takes over, explaining the tactical details, then Madine finally explains some extra details.

It would also allow us to divide the background text in different "questions" like in TIE Fighter, although in a more limited way, and present it to the player. For example, there could be a question "What are the details of this mission", that would show the text pages from page 2 to the page before the Hints and Tips. Then another question "Any special instructions", that would show all pages from the Hint and Tips page and on.
This would make sense only for missions added since Imperial Pursuit and on, of course. But in the future, we could "extend" the core game missions with external files to add the missing "special instructions" content, or even voiceovers.
Post edited August 29, 2016 by Azrapse
I had an idea regarding other pilots sitting in on the briefing: rather than just a random number of pilots, an option could be to set this dependent on the number of craft in the player's FG?

I don't think this number is stored in the briefing file, but given the small size of the mission files themselves, I wouldn't expect a big performance hit by checking the actual mission file at the same time as loading the briefing, to determine which FG the player is in; read the count of craft; and have (count - 1) other pilots show up - in this scenario, this could be explained as a per-FG briefing.

Or, if preferring larger numbers, the above could be extended to count all friendly fighter-level craft in the mission instead?

(Or this idea may just be going overboard and completely unnecessary :) )
avatar
scotsdezmond: I had an idea regarding other pilots sitting in on the briefing: rather than just a random number of pilots, an option could be to set this dependent on the number of craft in the player's FG?

I don't think this number is stored in the briefing file, but given the small size of the mission files themselves, I wouldn't expect a big performance hit by checking the actual mission file at the same time as loading the briefing, to determine which FG the player is in; read the count of craft; and have (count - 1) other pilots show up - in this scenario, this could be explained as a per-FG briefing.

Or, if preferring larger numbers, the above could be extended to count all friendly fighter-level craft in the mission instead?

(Or this idea may just be going overboard and completely unnecessary :) )
I like that idea. The Pilot Roster screen could actually be just the camera turning away from the map and Dodonna/Ackbar and towards the pilots sitting on the seats!
Pilot clothing could reflect their flightgroup colors, and clicking on a pilot could bring a list of other pilots to replace them with.