Who's pushing the town onward exactly? You had three different votes on day 1 besides the final Damnation one, and all those were votes on safe unmarked targets at the time (Baz in #30, Robb in #37, Orry in #63) and in only one of the votes (Vitek voted Baz in #34 actually, supporting you - oh wait, is that buddying and now you're trying to distance him?) did you even have vote support from any other town. Your other vote was the final vote on Damnation, one that you had argued for but had not voted, whereas I did vote him with what to me was a that even he admitted [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post107]2 posts after that he couldn't justify; and I'd like to think I was more of a major player in his mislynch as you were. Because I truly believed he was Mafia. I voted. Did you?

Most of what you were doing on D1, in fact, amounted to attacking him on an early comment and painting him up to look scummy, but not actually putting your money where your voice is and laying a vote on him. Until the very end when it was inevitable, after his nefarious claim. It's like you knew he was town, but wanted others to cast the mislynch. And now you're making noise and pretending to be the victim, to distance yourself from someone (Orry? Robb? Baz?) whom you WERE voting in D1, and now somehow you presume to be innocent (and are in the process of trying to convince town of) because a couple other suspects conveniently flipped town as well.

What safe bandwagons exactly did I join? Was the Damnation bandwagon safe when I called him on his slip and was the second person on his wagon? Your spot was a far 'safer' one, being the hammer vote after he had claimed scum, so I don't see where you are coming from there.

This isn't fence-sitting? "I think/suspect/know he's scum but I don't want to vote him - others will lynch him for me if he IS scum"

So I'm Mafia because people agree with me? Wow. So if more people had agreed with your reads on D1 and voted along with you, then what? You'd vote yourself? Ludicrous, frustrating argument. You're trying to divide and conquer the town. Vote GhostQlyph

You are right on one thing though, you didn't directly mention the Damnation/Orry and investigation thing. That was from Baz's post, which you agreed with and then alluded to by guessing Orry as a Godfather. Which is of course nice and unprovable until lynched.

After reading Ghost's and Jess's posts I notice their conversation is starting to look a lot like Damnation and Ghost on day 1, I'm not entirely sure what that means, but it does look similar to me.

EVERYONE
Reply to me with a reason that your not mafia.

Ah, Jess. I'll be fairly brief, because I'm afraid we'd soon start entering short story territory with our posts.

There is one thing that, if you remember, I saw as suspicious already on day one. You are a shrewd, analytic player, which is why I don't understand how you can claim the case against Damnation was solid in any way. It was not. I repeat something I said before but didn't get to explain: the whole Dark Heresy thing completely upsets almost everything there was against Damnation up to that point. After the explanation (by Orry) the random vote stage suddenly looked entirely different. And you did not acknowledge (and do not) this at all. That is very unlike you, Jess.

(You are, however, most certainly right that after Damnation claimed mafia, the only correct course of action was to lynch him. I'm not denying that.)

About that theory of mine: I didn't try to pretend it was anything but a theory. I refuse to believe nmillar was targeted randomly. I went through several explanations in my head and this was by far the most elegant one.

Several other assorted points:

-- Jess: "I certainly believed Damnation's claim" subtly thrown in -- trying to save face?

-- Jess to Ghost: "You state that you lost a lot of respect for your mislynch, but who has actually said that in response to your Day 1? No one!" -- I did, very openly. To clarify, I am perfectly aware that Ghost could be a mafia who's running a very risky gambit. I will still be keeping an eye on her, you can be sure about that.

-- The whole "two scumteams" thing... Again, Jess, that is unlike you. There was only one nightkill. Six town against six mafia is deeply unbalanced and you know it. I'll stick to my trusty Occam's razor on this one. You are correct we do not know how many mafia there are, but it is safe to assume three until proven otherwise.

-- The paragraph in #209 starting with "And again here": an interesting read. Particularly this: "How did the Mafia get them to vote Roosh so Orry could vote him too and get suspicious and then cleared? How did they get Damnation, a now-confirmed townie, to pick him as the "innocent" so that he can get investigated and cleared?" -- You speak of orchestration. I would absolutely not expect that on Night 0, the mafia chose a specific target and tried to steer town in that direction. Highly improbable, for many reasons -- sure I don't have to go through them here? This is an absurd theory, and again, rather unlike you. The votes on Roosh vere explained very succintly by the Dark Heresy business (again!). And at this point, we know two of the votes were just townies having fun. Was the third as well, I wonder? It did come third, remember.

I suppose that is something Ghost does to people. Which is why I'm for keeping her alive for now. If/when she targets the real mafia with this barrage of posts, they are very likely to start slipping.

Because I'm not? Sorry, there is no way to answer this question other than with a mass claim. And to be clear: I'm not in favour of a mass claim.

Yeah, there isn't really much that can be said here.

Rooshandark8, could you please reply with your read of all other players? You are the only player I'm 99% certain is Town - doublevote can't be Mafia , surely? It would unbalance the game...so I know your reads will be honest reads, without any Mafia deviousness about them.

Vitek, my FoS stays with you , for targetting Roosh early in day 2. Also going to cock another digit and point FoS at Orryyrro - you were under suspicion yesterday, and I disagree with Ghost - just because she got the read on Damnation wrong doesn't mean she should lay off any of her other targets, pressure brings mistakes. You haven't exactly covered yourself with glory on day 2 either, so you're my strongest contender so far.

This assumes Ghost is Town - I'm thinking currently she is, I see the logic behind all the pressure on certain targets, and I dont think the Mafia would have pressurised so much - too high risk.

In fact, stow that second digit. Vote Orryrro. Baz's argument has swayed me.

I didn't believe he is scum and didn't want to get him lynched. But I saw it as not worth the effort to try to save him and convince other people to unlynch when even himself wanted to be lynched. I was not sure he is townie, I had my doubts but arguments against him and mostly his confession seemed quite weird to me. Still it would be denfence of possible mafia.
I told that as I wanted to see Ghost reaction. There was no reason for me not to vote Damnation, in fact I think being hammer would be less suspicious than my "pushing" of Ghost. You see, people who voted for him you don't list as suspects (unless not for that reason). But there was no reason for me to vote him.But haven't thought he's mafia and also why take from Ghost the opportunity to prove she stands by her words. (Is it right phrase?)

How could you not out you are doublevoter after doublevoting?

Ehm... because mommy told me not to join mafia and I always listen to my mommy?
I don't know what you want to hear.

Well, I have to mimic your reaction, "Seriously?". How did you pick me? As easy target or what? Do you realise almost everybody turneed on you to get some kind of attention. GoJays voted you too and Ghost and bazilisek at least FoSed you. We did it because you were laying really low and in first game it was quite a sign of mafia. Even you stated you post in both only when you get in danger so it worked. But your reaction when you try to quickly dismiss any atention doesn'T convince me too much and I find it quite scummy. Therefore my vote stays with you, at least for now.
However you are not my primary suspect, but I've really got to go now, so I will explain more in the evening.

Sorry if I messed up something in this post, I wrote in in hassle and have no time to read it through for mistakes.

A bit of a post clarification to #214:

I went through my previous post to check for mistakes and it seems that the fourth of my assorted points was based on a confusion in my notes. The theory I call absurd was presented by Jess as exactly that: an example of something blatantly absurd. So cross that one out, please. My apologies.

The observation about Orry being the third to vote for Roosh is still valid, though.

Addressing some of baz's points.

Sorry, but which part of my posts are you referring to with this? I know the Dark Heresy thing was the reason for their early votes on Roosh, and I didn't build my case on that. My case on Damnation was for flipping reads on Ghost in back to back posts, and that was what I said was solid.

<Clipped out two paragraphs about the absurd thing, reading Baz's 218. Ok gotcha, was making the exact same point :)>

About Orry being 3rd on the wagon. Hrm. I was under the impression, however, and this may otherwise break down my argument, that Orry was part of the RP group as well, as I looked up the Official Unofficial GOG roleplaying group and saw Orryyrro in the group listed on the first page as well. So yes, I assumed his vote was along the same vein as nmillar's and Damnation's. Else I would definitely have to re-examine that. Maybe this is where we're not seeing each other's viewpoints. I assumed Orry was clearly part of the group that voted Roosh for that same reason, because he was in the RP thread, too.

Anwyay the reason I'm attacking that is that part of the "case" on me is that I called for that investigation on Orry (as he did on himself) and that was entirely based on Damnation's claim. It was the right call IF he was scum, which he seemed to be when he claimed it, and was made null after he flipped town.

Doesn't mean for example, you two can't be Mafia trying to capitalise on Damnation's mislynch, and planned to play this emotionally off of the town. Because no one else seems to have mentioned that beforehand.

Like, before you posted that in #191, she was already breadcrumbing regret for being wrong in her #178, #182 (where she mentions not wanting to harass past targets), #189 where she preps the town for being wrong again on her next lynch, and all this before your #191 post where you mention her losing cred.

In fact Orry in #177, first post of D2, comes out and says Ghost looked more like town when Damnation flipped town. And reaffirms that in #179. So why the sudden breakdown and armload of disclaimers from her, and the refusal to consider D1 suspects? It reeks of trying to force through an innocent claim on someone she suspected in D1, because the claim that the "town" thinks she wasn't credible due to the lynch was patently false and anti-town, and even then, going from that to (paraphrased) 'therefore I will not pursue my D1 suspects again' is another bad, bad leap of logic.

Right. This was meant in the vein of "What were the Mafia thinking when Damnation claimed since he obviously wasn't part of their team." And I'll concede that extending that speculation, including what I said, is probably a futile dead end due to what you said, although we don't know how N1 played out for sure. It doesn't have to be 3/3 Mafia, 8-2-2 is a perfectly reasonable 12 person setup, if unlikely due to only one NK, as you said.

What I was trying to get at from that line of questioning, is that people seem to assume automatically there are 3 scum, and I am not sure if that is a scumtell because only the scum would know exactly how many they had whereas town would not, or just natural thought progression because that seems to be the format of all the games so far. It could be a case of scum slipping and showing they know too much, which is what I was gunning for.

Just a quick reaction:

Not yours, primarily Ghost's. I'll do a recap of the whole DH thing from my perspective soonish, because I feel it was important. I originally wanted to do that on day one, but didn't make it on time.

Yes, he was, but that doesn't clear him of suspicion. Careful about that assumption there.

I wanted to say this earlier, I agree with you there. That is very odd.

Almost certainly the latter, if you ask me. While it definitely is dangerous to take too much for granted, this "question everything" principle is a slippery slope that can take you literally anywhere. As I said, Occam's razor is (or rather, should be) a helpful tool here.

And I started typing more after this but deleted it all because this game is not supposed to be a private dialogue, right?

I would just like to clarify what I was doing last week. I had a major project to do, so I cut down on forum time. I'm not planning on posting only when I'm in danger, it was just how it ended up happening.

Hey, some people are stupid they will fell for that trick of me saying maybe.
Vote Typoon45
On guard,
Your in danger