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General discussionWhy do people hate console digital games, but not PC digital games?(59 posts)(59 posts)
(59 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 19, 2017
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dudalb: I don't get the poster's insistence that the legal crap for cosole game is somehow different then the legal crap of PC Games.
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CMOT70: To cut a long story short, I just pulled a few old boxed games (from the 90's) and physically read their license agreements, and do you know what? The person you're talking about is correct, the legal crap IS different between PC and Console. Even back then.
The license is for use of the software on the CD (that's exactly how they word it), the CD being nothing more than a transport medium and a half-assed attempt at DRM. I checked a few old games, and they're all similar. Further, the license doesn't allow transferal- which means, to the letter of the law, you are not allowed to sell it, trade it etc. You bought the license, not the person you give or sell the CD to. I know the stuff in the license is unenforceable and probably irrelevant because of it- we all used to sell and trade and copy PC game discs, but it doesn't mean we were doing it legally.

Trading/selling console discs and cartridges is perfectly legal at this point.
Yes, the license said you couldn't transfer the license, but that's not to say transfer would be illegal - it entirely depends on whether or not the license would hold up in court.
Just because a license says you can't do something doesn't mean the law agrees that you can't do the same thing.
Post edited April 19, 2017 by Maighstir
Posted April 19, 2017
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CMOT70: To cut a long story short, I just pulled a few old boxed games (from the 90's) and physically read their license agreements, and do you know what? The person you're talking about is correct, the legal crap IS different between PC and Console. Even back then.
The license is for use of the software on the CD (that's exactly how they word it), the CD being nothing more than a transport medium and a half-assed attempt at DRM. I checked a few old games, and they're all similar. Further, the license doesn't allow transferal- which means, to the letter of the law, you are not allowed to sell it, trade it etc. You bought the license, not the person you give or sell the CD to. I know the stuff in the license is unenforceable and probably irrelevant because of it- we all used to sell and trade and copy PC game discs, but it doesn't mean we were doing it legally.

Trading/selling console discs and cartridges is perfectly legal at this point.
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Maighstir: Yes, the license said you couldn't transfer the license, but that's not to say transfer would be illegal - it entirely depends on whether or not the license would hold up in court.
Just because a license says you can't do something doesn't mean the law agrees that you can't do the same thing.
2 problems with that
Firstly DRM allows them to enforce policies with out the need of a court case
Secondly, you need to take the multi-million dollar company (and their very expensive lawyers) to court. Don't forget VALVe's lawyer recently case doubt on PC games are software to get one case suspended.
Posted April 20, 2017
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eisberg77: Play in offline mode, problem solved.
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teceem: That doesn't work without logging in ONLINE ("regularly") . Are you sure you're on the right website? This isn't Steam you know.
Except for it does work without logging in regularly. And I am responding to someone that mentioned Steam and playing without Internet.
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mechmouse: There is no nonsense.

Console games which are not digitally downloaded are "Licenced copies of copyrighted material" in the same way books and DVD's are. As such consumers have the rights legally granted for such physical items. You own that disk and Publishers have absolutely no legal capability to restrict the resale of such materials.

While current gen consoles are moving into a grey area, where games are required to be copied to internal storage first, there has been no case to say the games are now licensed software.

PC games are licensed software, complete with all the pseudo legal rubish that they can put into a EULA.

I'm not saying digital means DRM, only that given the contractual nature of a license publishers can inlcude clauses they can not with console games. And of course they have the option in enforce those clauses via DRM. Even without DRM I can't sell my GoG games, but I am able sell my digital copy of Office (pre Office 364)

As for console gamers fighting for their rights. Yes they did. MS wanted to lock games to accounts and a large amount of xbox owners said "fine we're getting a PS4", enough to make MS change their plans.

PC gamers, sleep walked into a situation where one company now controls almost all of PC gaming. And many worship the guy in charge.
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anothername: Overall thats exactly how it is.

But in defense of my weak willed brothers and sisters of PC gaming: Microsoft did what it usually did by being ingorant to the world they live in. They made it very easy for the console gamers to go to the competition which released at the same time; also both released with a pityful amount of games.

When Gabe released the ground zero of online DRM with HL2 he did with something hyped to no end; with the must have for everybody game back then. He did observed the market and played his cards in his favour. And even then it took a while to turn PC gaming into the sad walled garden state it is in and almost killing off retail PC gaming.
Half Life 2 is DRM free, can be played without Steam even running. Steamwork DRM didn't even started till 2009. Prior to Steamworks DRM any game sold on there were either DRM free like Half Life 2 or used a third party DRM.
Post edited April 20, 2017 by eisberg77
Posted April 20, 2017
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teceem: That doesn't work without logging in ONLINE ("regularly") . Are you sure you're on the right website? This isn't Steam you know.
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eisberg77: Except for it does work without logging in regularly. And I am responding to someone that mentioned Steam and playing without Internet.
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anothername: Overall thats exactly how it is.

But in defense of my weak willed brothers and sisters of PC gaming: Microsoft did what it usually did by being ingorant to the world they live in. They made it very easy for the console gamers to go to the competition which released at the same time; also both released with a pityful amount of games.

When Gabe released the ground zero of online DRM with HL2 he did with something hyped to no end; with the must have for everybody game back then. He did observed the market and played his cards in his favour. And even then it took a while to turn PC gaming into the sad walled garden state it is in and almost killing off retail PC gaming.
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eisberg77: Half Life 2 is DRM free, can be played without Steam even running. Steamwork DRM didn't even started till 2009. Prior to Steamworks DRM any game sold on there were either DRM free like Half Life 2 or used a third party DRM.
Try to install it on a brand new system without i-net.
Posted April 20, 2017
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eisberg77: Except for it does work without logging in regularly. And I am responding to someone that mentioned Steam and playing without Internet.

Half Life 2 is DRM free, can be played without Steam even running. Steamwork DRM didn't even started till 2009. Prior to Steamworks DRM any game sold on there were either DRM free like Half Life 2 or used a third party DRM.
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anothername: Try to install it on a brand new system without i-net.
Try get your games from GoG without i-net.
Posted April 21, 2017
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anothername: Try to install it on a brand new system without i-net.
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eisberg77: Try get your games from GoG without i-net.
Getting them once is analogous to visiting a store getting a box. Its the next best thing to getting a retail game without online DRM. Do it once, have it. No need going back and asking nicely each time I want to install again. Although its an option given.

*shrug* I get it. Steams your love. And thats ok. Its ok that you are ok with the way they distribute games. Just don't be delusional about it. It looks... awkward. :/
Posted April 21, 2017
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eisberg77: Try get your games from GoG without i-net.
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anothername: Getting them once is analogous to visiting a store getting a box. Its the next best thing to getting a retail game without online DRM. Do it once, have it. No need going back and asking nicely each time I want to install again. Although its an option given.

*shrug* I get it. Steams your love. And thats ok. Its ok that you are ok with the way they distribute games. Just don't be delusional about it. It looks... awkward. :/
Steam is my love? lol, that explains why I come to GoG first to buy games before I go to Steam.... oh wait. Don't make assumptions, it is stupid to do so.

Try installing that GoG game without Internet when the files are corrupted or your backup medium isn't working.

No, this is more about the truth. And Installation method is not in any way shape or form a DRM. You download your game, you can play it without a client running, without the internet, therefore it is DRM free. Half-LIfe 2 is DRM free. All single player games on Steam can be played in Offline mode if they do have DRM, but you will never be asked to go online once you run it the first time.

You can even take your DRM free games and make a backup of them, zip them up if you want and put them on what ever backup medium you want. Then you put that game on any computer you want, even one without internet or Steam, and play the game all you want, never needing to ask Steam for anything. Nothing more than a different type of installation process.
Posted April 21, 2017
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anothername: Getting them once is analogous to visiting a store getting a box. Its the next best thing to getting a retail game without online DRM. Do it once, have it. No need going back and asking nicely each time I want to install again. Although its an option given.

*shrug* I get it. Steams your love. And thats ok. Its ok that you are ok with the way they distribute games. Just don't be delusional about it. It looks... awkward. :/
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eisberg77: Steam is my love? lol, that explains why I come to GoG first to buy games before I go to Steam.... oh wait. Don't make assumptions, it is stupid to do so.

Try installing that GoG game without Internet when the files are corrupted or your backup medium isn't working.

No, this is more about the truth. And Installation method is not in any way shape or form a DRM. You download your game, you can play it without a client running, without the internet, therefore it is DRM free. Half-LIfe 2 is DRM free. All single player games on Steam can be played in Offline mode if they do have DRM, but you will never be asked to go online once you run it the first time.

You can even take your DRM free games and make a backup of them, zip them up if you want and put them on what ever backup medium you want. Then you put that game on any computer you want, even one without internet or Steam, and play the game all you want, never needing to ask Steam for anything. Nothing more than a different type of installation process.
At least that is the very strong impression you made.

But besides that you completely miss the point. I previously thought you where trolling but I start to think we honestly talk past each other. Right now I lack the energy (and.. well.. interest) for an in-depth explanation. Maybe I'll go back to it later or over the weekend. But then again the web has been filled over the decades with explanations far more elaborate than I'd currently be able to give. If you really want something right now when you read this I'm sure you find it easily.
Posted April 21, 2017
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anothername: Getting them once is analogous to visiting a store getting a box. Its the next best thing to getting a retail game without online DRM. Do it once, have it. No need going back and asking nicely each time I want to install again. Although its an option given.

*shrug* I get it. Steams your love. And thats ok. Its ok that you are ok with the way they distribute games. Just don't be delusional about it. It looks... awkward. :/
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eisberg77: Steam is my love? lol, that explains why I come to GoG first to buy games before I go to Steam.... oh wait. Don't make assumptions, it is stupid to do so.

Try installing that GoG game without Internet when the files are corrupted or your backup medium isn't working.

No, this is more about the truth. And Installation method is not in any way shape or form a DRM. You download your game, you can play it without a client running, without the internet, therefore it is DRM free. Half-LIfe 2 is DRM free. All single player games on Steam can be played in Offline mode if they do have DRM, but you will never be asked to go online once you run it the first time.

You can even take your DRM free games and make a backup of them, zip them up if you want and put them on what ever backup medium you want. Then you put that game on any computer you want, even one without internet or Steam, and play the game all you want, never needing to ask Steam for anything. Nothing more than a different type of installation process.
Someone once told me you can copy the entire Steam folder from one machine to another and it will just work. Personally I didn't believe them, but I did test it. And to my surprise it worked. Also dependency installers are included in a subfolder.

So I have a back up of the few Steam games, which theoretically should survive post internet.

That said. I don't trust it to not to have issues, and I most certainly don't trust VALVe not restrict offline mode at some point in the future.
Posted April 21, 2017
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eisberg77: No, this is more about the truth. And Installation method is not in any way shape or form a DRM. You download your game, you can play it without a client running, without the internet, therefore it is DRM free. Half-LIfe 2 is DRM free. All single player games on Steam can be played in Offline mode if they do have DRM, but you will never be asked to go online once you run it the first time.
You must be joking or just managed to avoid all the forum wars about DRM where the offline mode's bad habit of only working when you don't need it has been confirmed again and again, year after year.

Half-Life 2 may no longer require the Steam client to work, but the days when that would have been enough for me to buy it are long gone. Nowadays for a publisher to even hope to sell me a game they need to offer an official DRM-free version of it.

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mechmouse: Someone once told me you can copy the entire Steam folder from one machine to another and it will just work. Personally I didn't believe them, but I did test it. And to my surprise it worked. Also dependency installers are included in a subfolder.

So I have a back up of the few Steam games, which theoretically should survive post internet.

That said. I don't trust it to not to have issues, and I most certainly don't trust VALVe not restrict offline mode at some point in the future.
I don't know about Steam, but at least Uplay would not let you past the login prompt before being able to access the servers and verify your account. If Steam is the same, then at best your DRM'ed Steam games could survive until you run out of computers where the Steam client has been installed and logged in to the service before the fall.

And this is me assuming that the Steam client stores locally a list of games you have purchased and use that to allow you launch any one of them in offline mode without any online verification even if you copied them from another PC instead of the client being connected to Steam during the test and doing the check on the background.
Posted April 21, 2017
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JAAHAS: snip
In my test I put Steam into offline mode then copied my entire Steam folder to a clean machine with no internet.

And it worked.

I don't know if copying a game I owned from another location would work. I'm guessing those protected by CEG would not work.
Posted April 21, 2017
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JAAHAS: snip
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mechmouse: In my test I put Steam into offline mode then copied my entire Steam folder to a clean machine with no internet.

And it worked.

I don't know if copying a game I owned from another location would work. I'm guessing those protected by CEG would not work.
Clean as in the client has not been installed before the machine was disconnected or at least never been logged in to the service?

Also did the games work from the client or did you navigate to their respective folders and launch them there?

It just sounds like either by coincidence none of tested games happened to contain any dependencies with the client in the first place or many publishers would be very interested to hear why the service has stopped verifying that the player has bought their games before allowing them to launch?
Posted April 21, 2017
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mechmouse: In my test I put Steam into offline mode then copied my entire Steam folder to a clean machine with no internet.

And it worked.

I don't know if copying a game I owned from another location would work. I'm guessing those protected by CEG would not work.
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JAAHAS: Clean as in the client has not been installed before the machine was disconnected or at least never been logged in to the service?

Also did the games work from the client or did you navigate to their respective folders and launch them there?

It just sounds like either by coincidence none of tested games happened to contain any dependencies with the client in the first place or many publishers would be very interested to hear why the service has stopped verifying that the player has bought their games before allowing them to launch?
Clean as in fresh OS install (setting up new PC for Son, it was a good time to test it)

Steam must keep a local database of purchases, or installed games are some how pre validated.

As I said I didn't then copy a different game from another computers SteamApps to test that.

Launching Steam, gave option to continue in offline mode. Installed games were listed and ran from Client.
Posted April 24, 2017
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mechmouse: ...
So unless I read your reply wrong, the client was connected with the service prior being set to offline mode?
Which means that any of the client-dependent games will not work on any computer that is assembled after Steam is gone, although the consoles probably have it even worse as I think that restoring patched backups even on the same device where they were made requires an online verification.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionWhy do people hate console digital games, but not PC digital games?(59 posts)(59 posts)
(59 posts)