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General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 02, 2015
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pigdog: This isn't necessarily a view on the problems in Ukraine but merely to highlight that it's in fact naive of the western population to look down their collective noses at Russian propaganda.
Which collective nose? The western population tends to have quite opposing stances to various topics while this is exactly the one thing the totalitarian Russian propaganda is good at not giving any chance to grow at all - too many varying opinions.

Rather realizing that nearly every state has some kind of propaganda going on (including the own one) and unwilling to believe how many completely obvious lies and twists some people can swallow without choking.
Post edited March 02, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted March 02, 2015
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pigdog: This isn't necessarily a view on the problems in Ukraine but merely to highlight that it's in fact naive of the western population to look down their collective noses at Russian propaganda.
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Klumpen0815: Which collective nose? The western population tends to have quite opposing stances to various topics while this is exactly the one thing the totalitarian Russian propaganda is good at not giving any chance to grow at all - too many varying opinions.

Rather realizing that nearly every state has some kind of propaganda going on (including the own one) and unwilling to believe how many completely obvious lies and twists some people can swallow without choking.
Please don't take offence but I really don't understand what you're saying. Would you reword it for me please. Just to emphasise that I'm not being patronising as the chances are, I'm not as literate or able to articulate sentences as well as you.
Posted March 02, 2015
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Klumpen0815: Which collective nose? The western population tends to have quite opposing stances to various topics while this is exactly the one thing the totalitarian Russian propaganda is good at not giving any chance to grow at all - too many varying opinions.

Rather realizing that nearly every state has some kind of propaganda going on (including the own one) and unwilling to believe how many completely obvious lies and twists some people can swallow without choking.
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pigdog: Please don't take offence but I really don't understand what you're saying. Would you reword it for me please. Just to emphasise that I'm not being patronising as the chances are, I'm not as literate or able to articulate sentences as well as you.
Sorry if I made some mistakes. I'm ill, tired and English isn't my first language.
I meant, that I don't think people are looking down at the Russian propaganda but people are rather puzzled by the ones actually believing it even when it's such obvious bullshit.
Post edited March 02, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted March 02, 2015
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pigdog: Please don't take offence but I really don't understand what you're saying. Would you reword it for me please. Just to emphasise that I'm not being patronising as the chances are, I'm not as literate or able to articulate sentences as well as you.
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Klumpen0815: Sorry if I made some mistakes. I'm ill, tired and English isn't my first language.
I meant, that I don't think people are looking down at the Russian propaganda but people are rather puzzled by the ones actually believing it even when it's such obvious bullshit.
No problem. Your English is better than my.....well, everything including English :)

Thanks for clarifying and it's a fair point.
Posted March 02, 2015
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Gremlion: Because there are none? We live with muslims for 1000 years without mutual harassment.
Man, in my 30 years I had only one talk about Islam. My muslim friend asked me "Do you know what is this?" about surah on his neck and I was ashamed that I didn't.
You're funny. You're not even aware of what's going in your own country.

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Gremlion: How exactly not spending dollars to buy some sorts of cheese drives rouble or starve population? As for starvation... We replace EU goods with goods from countries which didn't implement sanctions.
Although it seems that Greece's embargo would be lifted soon, they are trying to not self-harm for the glory of US.
Before you speak next time, go and learn economics because your attempts to justify your country's actions are pathetic.

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Gremlion: Both are foreign countries for Russia. I mentioned the case I know about. US adopted more children than Spain by using the same schemes.
I will play your game now since the ball is in my court. Any proof of this or just the usual?

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Gremlion: You're missing the entire point - region belongs to local population which revolted against rebels in Kiev backed by US.
Kiev doesn't have any moral rights on territory, and thus their army flees from fighting in thousands.
As much as it pains you to admit it, they do have rights, and your country is just an aggressor, like always.

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Gremlion: Blah-blah-blah. Look, for things being constructive, you shouldn't teach me about how bad I'm living according to your internetz portraying of Russia. If you don't understand "Why I see in internetz X and they do Y instead of Z", ask.

You cherrypicked sources which are comfortable for your point of view but they don't match to real life as you still don't understand what happens.
Your pathetic attempts to justify my bias in contrast to your country's shortcomings are delightful. Now wonder many countries are not fan of you.

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Gremlion: You should stop using whatever you are using to get high.
I'm straight-edge, thank you. I don't even know how coffee tastes. Next time don't assume everyone showing you the truth about your bias is like one of your own nationalists high as hell on krokodil or other shit that you invented.
Posted March 02, 2015
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Klumpen0815: Well, I'm living amongst many ex Russians and those are probably the more sensible ones (although sadly way too fond of alcohol for my taste).
The only decent to good Russians I've met are, ironically, immigrants. People who escaped the intellectual prison that they homeland has become.

Putin is so malicious that he learned from Western society's schemes. In case of war he wants to disconnect Russia from the internet through a series of blocks and some other stuff that was a bit too technical for me to get it. He is basically planning in case of war to fuel the population with bogus and propagandist news just like US fueled the people during the Spanish American war and WWI in order to strengthen the population's support for war.
Posted March 02, 2015
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Klumpen0815: They do? Oh dear...
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F4LL0UT: Yeah, already a whole bunch of years ago I read about stalinism regaining popularity there, Stalin being celebrated as a national hero by disturbingly large numbers of Russians again etc..
WTF. Why?!?
Posted March 02, 2015
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F4LL0UT: Yeah, already a whole bunch of years ago I read about stalinism regaining popularity there, Stalin being celebrated as a national hero by disturbingly large numbers of Russians again etc..
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monkeydelarge: WTF. Why?!?
Simply put - because they consider times when stalin was ruling as a times of glory and when everyone was even in their rights. So mix of stupidity and not even knowing their own history. It's so bad that you can occasionally find icons picturing him as saint in churches. I wish i was kidding here.
Posted March 02, 2015
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monkeydelarge: WTF. Why?!?
BECAUSE RRRRUSSIA IS WEAK! RRRRRUSSIA NEEDS TO BE STRONG! STALIN WAS STRONG! THE SOVIET UNION WAS STRRRROOONG! STALIN WILL MAKE RRRRRUSSIA STRRRRRONG!
Posted March 02, 2015
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F4LL0UT: Yeah, already a whole bunch of years ago I read about stalinism regaining popularity there, Stalin being celebrated as a national hero by disturbingly large numbers of Russians again etc..
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monkeydelarge: WTF. Why?!?
Because its not true. Putin has stated time and time again how Stalin was far from a good guy. Petty western journalists take quotes on the historical significance of the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany out of context and paint Putin in that light. It is really quite pathetic.

Winston Churchill was directly to blame for 1 - 3 million deaths in India yet I don't see Russian media painting modern British politicians as demons for saying positive things about Winston.
Posted March 02, 2015
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XenSavage: that's pure speculation on your side. For those who have trouble understanding written text there are explanations in same link _you_ have provided in separate documents.
If it was the same law, it would've been 5 times shorter. Devil is in details.
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XenSavage: yep, that's the one when one of ukrainians was arrested - http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2015/03/1/7060121/
and he was released: http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2015/03/1/7060146/ ?
He would be asked about Odessa today.
PS: Don't anyone get cognitive dissonance from the fact that person from the Ukrainian government freely visits "aggressor's territory"?

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Klumpen0815: Wow, it's shocking to see how some Russians here are believing the propaganda for real, I thought most Russians with contact to the rest of the world wouldn't take the stuff they are served at home serious at all.
Wake up, guys. Your media is completely under control, everything is censored, reporters that are not willing to hide the truth are imprisoned all the time, your leaders are all KGB/FSB and you still believe anything they say... blows my mind.

Your leaders are the bad guys just as they were in WW2 alongside the Nazis and afterwards, I was born in a Soviet prison state that (thank heavens) does not exist anymore, face it.
Don't ever believe anything a controlled media is telling you and stop defending genocidal homophobic lying invaders / murderers. I don't want to count the Russian population to the truly evil ones too while their leaders are for sure.
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Klumpen0815: Which collective nose? The western population tends to have quite opposing stances to various topics while this is exactly the one thing the totalitarian Russian propaganda is good at not giving any chance to grow at all - too many varying opinions.
Calm down your hysteria.
We have site inosmi.ru which aggregates translations for all major western press for those who doesn't know second language. Russia haven't banned any media source, maybe with exception for IGIL.
We completely aware about what image our government and country has in your sources.
"Opposing stances" look like that:
"Russia attacked Ukraine, we should let them"
"Russia attacked Ukraine, we should help Ukraine"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin controlled by aliens"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin is mad"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin hates ukrainians"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin wants ukrainian plants"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine for shits and giggles"

http://i.imgur.com/bfn1kRR.jpg

TBH everything you said goes backward with the twist that Russia is no longer has Gulag, but US has Guantanomo and other secret prisons; in capitalistic Russia you watch TV, in capitalistic US TV watches you (Snowden?)

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HijacK: Putin is so malicious that he learned from Western society's schemes. In case of war he wants to disconnect Russia from the internet through a series of blocks and some other stuff that was a bit too technical for me to get it. He is basically planning in case of war to fuel the population with bogus and propagandist news just like US fueled the people during the Spanish American war and WWI in order to strengthen the population's support for war.
"I'm too dumb to understand what I have read, but nonetheless I will parrot it" - you.
China with its Great Firewall can't completely block internet.
Russia has EU countries on borders which we can freely visit - what's the point of banning internet when it takes 2 hours to get into Finland? Imagine Estonia putting free wifi on the border with Russia - what's then? Shoot routers?
Russian border with different countries is ridiculous 60900km.
I should note that many regions have satellite internet which is physically impossible to block.
Yes, Russia building inner net - for saving private data, used in government structures, hospitals and schools, from outer access.
Our government was dumb to NOT build it earlier, payments to military for a while happened through american Visa servers, US knows better amount of people in Russian army than our military minister knows.

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HijacK: You're funny. You're not even aware of what's going in your own country.
Yup, I know that US wants regular "je suis charlie" in Russia.
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Gremlion: How exactly not spending dollars to buy some sorts of cheese drives rouble or starve population? As for starvation... We replace EU goods with goods from countries which didn't implement sanctions.
Although it seems that Greece's embargo would be lifted soon, they are trying to not self-harm for the glory of US.
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HijacK: Before you speak next time, go and learn economics because your attempts to justify your country's actions are pathetic.
Well you already have shown that you are dumb when talked about internet:
http://i.imgur.com/kBDKYLP.png
Rouble got 10% of its cost back during last month.
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Gremlion: Both are foreign countries for Russia. I mentioned the case I know about. US adopted more children than Spain by using the same schemes.
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HijacK: I will play your game now since the ball is in my court. Any proof of this or just the usual?
Proofs were harsh enough to convince majority of our deputies to vote for this resolution.
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F4LL0UT: Yeah, already a whole bunch of years ago I read about stalinism regaining popularity there, Stalin being celebrated as a national hero by disturbingly large numbers of Russians again etc..
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monkeydelarge: WTF. Why?!?
In advance: I don't see USSR or Stalin as innocent things.
But there are quite a lot factors which are different for Russia.
Outer ones:
1. http://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5814270/the-successful-70-year-campaign-to-convince-people-the-usa-and-not
Strong propaganda makes US citizens believe that they defeated Hitler. It even worked in EU.
Many games, films, books, songs...
2. Propaganda targeted to discredit USSR to the point of nazism.
"Why our country has problems? F-cking commies". I have met grown up american kids that think that Russia is still under commies.
Lovable rhetoric is to say something like "Hitler killed 6M jews, Stalin's victims are in line of 12 millions*"
*Made 1000 death sentences, they could have 3 kids each, their kids could have 3 kids, overall 12 millions of unborn people.
Declassified document http://i.imgur.com/vtBdsh2.jpg
Amount of repressed people in the period 1921-1954: 3 777 380
Sentenced to death 642 980 (some of them replaced with long sentences)
Jail:2 369 220
Deportation: 765 180.
3. There are quite a lot novels by Russian writers about atmosphere of fear in USSR written under CIA supervision http://www.foia.cia.gov/collection/doctor-zhivago

Overall, your view and opinion is a lot worse than reality was.

Stalin for Russians associated with the greatest win in human history which was achieved by us, plus country changed from poor and agrarian to strong machine. We still exist as country, probably, only because we have nuclear weapon, thanks to Stalin. Otherwise Russia would've ended like Serbia.
Post edited March 02, 2015 by Gremlion
Posted March 02, 2015
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zeo: There were peaceful protests all over Ukraine but you weren't going to hear about it on CNN or BBC because it went against their narrative. You also wouldn't hear about the kidnappings and beatings.
Then perhaps the peaceful protests weren't big enough. And what kidnappings and beatings?

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zeo: When Strelkov entered Slavyansk with 20 accomplices and a crowbar he had far from any support for a violent struggle among the locals of Donbass. All they wanted was federalization so that they would have the freedom to run their regions as they see fit without fear of the US funding revolutions in Kiev every 5 years and ruining everything.

Think about it for a second. If an armed group of 20 people take over a building in your country what happens? Thats right, the police deal with it, you send in a SWAT team. Do you scramble fighter jets and start bombing runs on the city? No, no you do not.
And that's what they did. They send the special forces and retook the buildings. And then they lost them again, captured by people often using masks so they couldn't be recognized they aren't even ukrainian citizens.
Posted March 02, 2015
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Gremlion: After the Romanian Army entered Bessarabia, at the time nominally part of Russia, in the early 1918, the new Soviet government severed all diplomatic relations and confiscated the Romanian treasure. The Romanian government tried to recover the treasure in 1922, but with little success. In 1935, the USSR did return a part of the archives, and in 1956 paintings and ancient objects, most notably, the Pietroasele treasure.

"We attacked you, forget it and give us back our things?" Fair punishment, deal with it.

Or take a lesson of coming for your rightful belongings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherbourg_Project
Bessarabia had almost no russians ethnics (mostly romanians and an ucrainian minority) so by what right did you own it?
And after 1939 you took Bessarabia back, so you have to find another reason for not giving back Romanian treasure. What you did give back is nice but that pale comparing to the rest of the Treasure (over 100 tonnes of gold).
Posted March 02, 2015
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Gremlion: Stalin tried everything to postpone war, but it was inevitable, and thus Stalin did preparations.
War with Finland - border was in 40km from one of the main Russian cities, enough to effortlessly put artillery and bomb city. Russia offered to Finland fair exchange, some land there to comparable land in different place, but they refused.
That's the weakest excuse to go to war that I ever heard.
So 150.000 people died and 200.000 were wounded because Finland (a small and neutral country) had the posibility of bombing Sankt Petersburg.
Posted March 02, 2015
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Gremlion: Stalin tried everything to postpone war, but it was inevitable, and thus Stalin did preparations.
War with Finland - border was in 40km from one of the main Russian cities, enough to effortlessly put artillery and bomb city. Russia offered to Finland fair exchange, some land there to comparable land in different place, but they refused.
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GabiMoro: That's the weakest excuse to go to war that I ever heard.
So 150.000 people died and 200.000 were wounded because Finland (a small and neutral country) had the posibility of bombing Sankt Petersburg.
Blame it all on Finland!

Seriously, arguing with this hive mind is senseless.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)