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General discussionIt seems like GOG is unable to retain even their long supporting developers now.(261 posts)(261 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 29, 2023
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Lucian_Galca: Yeah, gog seems to be content in letting their store slowly rot from multiple ignored issues over recent years, and some of the longtime diehards here get defensive if you bring this up.
This has been their M.O. for over a decade. They lack the ability or desire to fix anything and just ignore what they don't want to admit.
Posted December 29, 2023
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Syphon72: Taking any chance you can. haha
I mean, showing a willingness to improve would be seen as a massive taking of initiative.

Basically, I'd like GOG to prove me wrong.
Post edited December 29, 2023 by Darvond
Posted December 29, 2023
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Syphon72: Taking any chance you can. haha
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Darvond: I mean, showing a willingness to improve would be seen as a massive taking of initiative.

Basically, I'd like GOG to prove me wrong.
I have feeling that would not make difference. You like it to much.
Post edited December 29, 2023 by Syphon72
Posted December 29, 2023
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ChrisGriffin: There is a developer out there who has released 4 games on GOG so far, along with many updates for them along the way. They also have another 2 games that they haven't released on GOG yet, but they did on steam.
Sadly this is true of other devs too. Klei were very pro GOG (Don't Starve, Invisible Inc, Mark of the Ninja), then the releases just suddenly stopped (no Oxygen Not Included, Griftlands, Hot Lava, Rotwood, etc). Unless I missed something, there was no real explanation either.

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UnashamedWeeb: "GOG should be doing every single thing they can to make any exporting of Steam games to GOG as smooth as possible. That includes improving their Steam SDK Wrapper to work with more game engines, mimicking Steamworks's UI/UX by making the most useful tools tools using feedback from their CDPR counterparts who manage their Steam listings, and offering DRM stripping services for games and updates if the devpubs can't do it themselves due to technical, staff, or financial limitations."
I agree - up to a point... Sadly though, for some games here where GOG has used a "Ghost Wrapper" to make it so super easy to port Steam games, we've literally ended up with devs just sending GOG the Steam version with Steamworks API calls and Steam formatted Achievements intact to "wrap" around, ie, GOG's Ghost Wrapper half the time = there are actually TWO fake clients running - a fake Steam client surrounded by a GOG supplied 'wrapper' (that functions almost like how Goldberg-style Steam emulator cracks work) that "translates" in-game Steam Achievements into Galaxy formatted Achievements then that gets fed into the usual fake Galaxy client sitting behind that to handle "lets stop the game from crashing when calling an achievement unlock if the client isn't running" for offline installers. Find such a game and feed the common.dll (a filename known to be used by the Ghost Wrapper and is essentially a renamed steam_api.dll) from a 'GOG' release into a Hex Editor and you'll see it filled with Steam API calls such as CreateSteamPipe, common.dll.SteamAPI, SteamAPI_RegisterCallback, GetISteamUser, GetISteamUserStats, AVUserStatsAndAchievementsRetrieveListener@UserStats@steam@gog, etc.

Real life example - "The Cave". The Steam version is actually DRM-Free and runs without the client without any patching includes a tiny 100kb client stub (steam_api.dll). The GOG version = 600kb fake Steam client 'Ghost Wrapper' (common.dll) running inside another 11.2MB Galaxy fake client (galaxy.dll), ie, the 'GOG' version is literally the Steam version with a 2nd layer of Galaxy "double-wrapped" (118x more bloated client code than Steam's version) so thanks to the "but muh cheevos" crowd wanting 'parity' we now have SteamWorks API and Steam Achievements fully intact inside GOG offline installers...

The Cave Start up Times (offline installer, from game start to reaching "Sega" logo, no client running):-

16.8s - GOG "Ghost Wrapper" version
1.8s - Steam version

^ The 'Ghost Wrapper' code is so half-baked that in some cases even if it did contain a SteamStub DRM client check, it would still start faster than for GOG's 'DRM-Free' offline installers two faked client stubs to "talk to each other"... This "Yo dawg, we heard you don't like clients, so we sent GOG the Steam version then added a glorified 'Goldberg' crack then wrapped that inside another Galaxy wrapper anyway to your GOG offline installers" 'Rube Goldberg Machine' unholy mess (vs how 'clean' the pre-2015 GOG releases were) has ended up far more obtuse than half the 'scene' / DRM-Free releases of Steam / Epic games, is definitely not why I (used to be) willing to pay a premium / double-dip for GOG "DRM-Free" games done right, but no longer am.

This is the downside to GOG's Ghost Wrapper "making it so easy for devs to port from Steam" that in some case, the easiest thing of all is to just send GOG the Steam version that ends up starting much slower and using more memory after GOG shovel on a second layer of Galaxy code in addition to (rather than instead of) the Steamworks code that's still left in...
Post edited December 29, 2023 by AB2012
Posted December 29, 2023
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ChrisGriffin: There is a developer out there who has released 4 games on GOG so far, along with many updates for them along the way. They also have another 2 games that they haven't released on GOG yet, but they did on steam.
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AB2012: Sadly this is true of other devs too. Klei were very pro GOG (Don't Starve, Invisible Inc, Mark of the Ninja), then the releases just suddenly stopped (no Oxygen Not Included, Griftlands, Hot Lava, Rotwood, etc). Unless I missed something, there was no real explanation either.

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UnashamedWeeb: "GOG should be doing every single thing they can to make any exporting of Steam games to GOG as smooth as possible. That includes improving their Steam SDK Wrapper to work with more game engines, mimicking Steamworks's UI/UX by making the most useful tools tools using feedback from their CDPR counterparts who manage their Steam listings, and offering DRM stripping services for games and updates if the devpubs can't do it themselves due to technical, staff, or financial limitations."
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AB2012: I agree - up to a point... Sadly though, for some games here where GOG has used a "Ghost Wrapper" to make it so super easy to port Steam games, we've literally ended up with devs just sending GOG the Steam version with Steamworks API calls and Steam formatted Achievements intact to "wrap" around, ie, GOG's Ghost Wrapper half the time = there are actually TWO fake clients running - a fake Steam client surrounded by a GOG supplied 'wrapper' (that functions almost like how Goldberg-style Steam emulator cracks work) that "translates" in-game Steam Achievements into Galaxy formatted Achievements then that gets fed into the usual fake Galaxy client sitting behind that to handle "lets stop the game from crashing when calling an achievement unlock if the client isn't running" for offline installers. Find such a game and feed the common.dll (a filename known to be used by the Ghost Wrapper and is essentially a renamed steam_api.dll) from a 'GOG' release into a Hex Editor and you'll see it filled with Steam API calls such as CreateSteamPipe, common.dll.SteamAPI, SteamAPI_RegisterCallback, GetISteamUser, GetISteamUserStats, AVUserStatsAndAchievementsRetrieveListener@UserStats@steam@gog, etc.

Real life example - "The Cave". The Steam version is actually DRM-Free and runs without the client without any patching includes a tiny 100kb client stub (steam_api.dll). The GOG version = 600kb fake Steam client 'Ghost Wrapper' (common.dll) running inside another 11.2MB Galaxy fake client (galaxy.dll), ie, the 'GOG' version is literally the Steam version with a 2nd layer of Galaxy "double-wrapped" (118x more bloated client code than Steam's version) so thanks to the "but muh cheevos" crowd wanting 'parity' we now have SteamWorks API and Steam Achievements fully intact inside GOG offline installers...

The Cave Start up Times (offline installer, from game start to reaching "Sega" logo, no client running):-

16.8s - GOG "Ghost Wrapper" version
1.8s - Steam version

^ The 'Ghost Wrapper' code is so half-baked that in some cases even if it did contain a SteamStub DRM client check, it would still start faster than for GOG's 'DRM-Free' offline installers two faked client stubs to "talk to each other"... This "Yo dawg, we heard you don't like clients, so we sent GOG the Steam version then added a glorified 'Goldberg' crack then wrapped that inside another Galaxy wrapper anyway to your GOG offline installers" 'Rube Goldberg Machine' unholy mess (vs how 'clean' the pre-2015 GOG releases were) has ended up far more obtuse than half the 'scene' / DRM-Free releases of Steam / Epic games, is definitely not why I (used to be) willing to pay a premium / double-dip for GOG "DRM-Free" games done right, but no longer am.

This is the downside to GOG's Ghost Wrapper "making it so easy for devs to port from Steam" that in some case, the easiest thing of all is to just send GOG the Steam version that ends up starting much slower and using more memory after GOG shovel on a second layer of Galaxy code in addition to (rather than instead of) the Steamworks code that's still left in...
Thanks for the insight, that was very explanatory.

Do you know how much overhead it causes on the more modern games?

I mean, I can live with a 100kb client stub being blown up to 600kb and adding another layer of 11.2MB, but how does it compare to, let's say, the "modern" games with much more "metric"/server interaction (micro transactions, publisher clients,in-game online stores) in the background?

And another point I'd like to ask: Are you sure it is all about the Galaxy client and not a "new" approach post 2015, when they started to release more modern games, that needed to be handled differently?

Just as a preface: I'm really intrigued and don't really know that stuff, so please don't see as me trolling or wanting to derail the thread.
Post edited December 29, 2023 by Ardal
Posted December 29, 2023
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Ardal: I mean, I can live with a 100kb client stub being blown up to 600kb and adding another layer of 11.2MB, but how does it compare to, let's say, the games with >100 GB installation size and much more "metric" in the background?
The size of the client does not change with the size of the game's assets.
Posted December 29, 2023
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Ardal: I mean, I can live with a 100kb client stub being blown up to 600kb and adding another layer of 11.2MB, but how does it compare to, let's say, the games with >100 GB installation size and much more "metric" in the background?
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clarry: The size of the client does not change with the size of the game's assets.
You are absolutely correct, that was poorly phrased by me, sorry.

The point I was trying to make was about the additional metric of the newer games with additional online services and whatnot. The size of the installation size was only added to make it clearer about what kind of "modern" game I'm talking about.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Posted December 29, 2023
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AB2012: I agree - up to a point... Sadly though, for some games here where GOG has used a "Ghost Wrapper" to make it so super easy to port Steam games, we've literally ended up with devs just sending GOG the Steam version with Steamworks API calls and Steam formatted Achievements intact to "wrap" around, ie, GOG's Ghost Wrapper half the time = there are actually TWO fake clients running - a fake Steam client surrounded by a GOG supplied 'wrapper' (that functions almost like how Goldberg-style Steam emulator cracks work) that "translates" in-game Steam Achievements into Galaxy formatted Achievements then that gets fed into the usual fake Galaxy client sitting behind that to handle "lets stop the game from crashing when calling an achievement unlock if the client isn't running" for offline installers.

16.8s - GOG "Ghost Wrapper" version
1.8s - Steam version
Wow. That explains a lot. I must admit, I've seen the same thing regarding some of GOG's games taking several times longer to start vs the same games on Steam / Epic versions. So GOG's offline installers aren't even the best / most desirable DRM-Free build anymore depending on how GOG "ghost wraps" them in double layered client bloat?
Posted December 29, 2023
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Syphon72: I have feeling that would not make difference. You like it to much.
If I like GOG so much, then why is my accounts payable towards GOG sitting at a year's end amount of a big goose egg?
Posted December 29, 2023
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GOG is not a serious company.
Their buggy forum is the most stable service they provides.
After 15 years of bussiness, they still don't know what is timezone, and their countdown clocks for sale are always wrong.
Posted December 29, 2023
high rated
At least it looks like spammers, unlike many developers, will never abandon GOG.
Posted December 29, 2023
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Ardal: Do you know how much overhead it causes on the more modern games?
In terms of CPU & RAM it's not much. Eg, The Cave uses 261MB RAM (GOG) vs 257MB (Steam) because of the Galaxy wrapper. Disk Space = 1183MB (GOG) vs 1168MB (Steam) again because of the galaxy.dll bloat. However, startup times can be 5-10x longer (almost Denuvo like disparities...) It also leaves many of us wondering what the point of "double dipping" for a 'superior' GOG version anymore is. Even old fashioned 'NoCD's' were a far cleaner solution than this mess.

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Ardal: And another point I'd like to ask: Are you sure it is all about the Galaxy client and not a "new" approach post 2015, when they started to release more modern games, that needed to be handled differently?
Yes, it's definitely Galaxy. The only thing that's changed with 'handling' modern games differently is GOG started to obsessively push developers to code everything for the Galaxy API, even stuff that doesn't need to be. Eg, Deus Ex Mankind Divided's DLC 'needed' Galaxy to unlock upon launch = the DLC didn't work in offline installers until they were forced to go back and patch it in normally, Saints Row 3 Remastered still 'needs' Galaxy running to save settings and is still abandoned in a broken state today after 2 years, again because of GOG's insistence on force-feeding Galaxy into offline installers "the wrong way". Even the new trend of gating off "bonus content" is an entirely fake restriction as many AAA games here on GOG have ignored GOG's Galaxy advocacy and just packaged it normally in-game (eg, Bioshock Infinite's Columbia's Finest, Dishonored's Void Walkers Arsenel, Deus Ex:HR Explosive Mission Pack, The Talos Principle Elohim Voice, Prey's Cosmonaut Shotgun Pack, etc), none of this stuff is tied to Galaxy and it all "just works" for everyone (as all GOG offline installers used to).

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ListyG: Wow. That explains a lot. I must admit, I've seen the same thing regarding some of GOG's games taking several times longer to start vs the same games on Steam / Epic versions. So GOG's offline installers aren't even the best / most desirable DRM-Free build anymore depending on how GOG "ghost wraps" them in double layered client bloat?
Yeah I've had several games like that including multiple Epic freebies that startup very fast whilst the Steam-inside-Galaxy-wrapper-supplied-by-GOG version sits there 'stalling' on something for 10-15s. If developers are having to face a wall of angst from offline installer users like "Dude, your game takes ages to start, the main menu settings don't save and your included DLC is missing *because* you followed GOG's advice", then I can see why some have just given up on the platform with a "Why the hell are your DRM-Free releases more hassle to code for than your competitors DRM'd ones?" shrug.
Post edited December 29, 2023 by AB2012
Posted December 29, 2023
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Ardal: Do you know how much overhead it causes on the more modern games?
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AB2012: In terms of CPU & RAM it's not much. Eg, The Cave uses 261MB RAM (GOG) vs 257MB (Steam) because of the Galaxy wrapper. Disk Space = 1183MB (GOG) vs 1168MB (Steam) again because of the galaxy.dll bloat. However, startup times can be 5-10x longer (almost Denuvo like disparities...) It also leaves many of us wondering what the point of "double dipping" for a 'superior' GOG version anymore is. Even old fashioned 'NoCD's' were a far cleaner solution than this mess.

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Ardal: And another point I'd like to ask: Are you sure it is all about the Galaxy client and not a "new" approach post 2015, when they started to release more modern games, that needed to be handled differently?
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AB2012: Yes, it's definitely Galaxy. The only thing that's changed with 'handling' modern games differently is GOG started to obsessively push developers to code everything for the Galaxy API, even stuff that doesn't need to be. Eg, Deus Ex Mankind Divided's DLC 'needed' Galaxy to unlock upon launch = the DLC didn't work in offline installers until they were forced to go back and patch it in normally, Saints Row 3 Remastered still 'needs' Galaxy running to save settings and is still abandoned in a broken state today after 2 years, again because of GOG's insistence on force-feeding Galaxy into offline installers "the wrong way". Even the new trend of gating off "bonus content" is an entirely fake restriction as many AAA games here on GOG have ignored GOG's Galaxy advocacy and just packaged it normally in-game (eg, Bioshock Infinite's Columbia's Finest, Dishonored's Void Walkers Arsenel, Deus Ex:HR Explosive Mission Pack, The Talos Principle Elohim Voice, Prey's Cosmonaut Shotgun Pack, etc), none of this stuff is tied to Galaxy and it all "just works" for everyone (as all GOG offline installers used to).

[...]
Thank you so much for explaining and enlightening me.

Having to work around an old version on CD/DVD, an old version being archived on an HDD and the gog/steam versions recently, I can assure you, I totally understand your praise of the old GOG-installers and the 'NoCD' approach.
Posted December 29, 2023
While GOG definitly has their problems, we had more medium to big releases during the past half year than we had in a long time.

They win some, they lose some.


The Saints Row 3 Remastered Dilemma is well known and GOG promised again and again to contact the publisher/devs about it. But nothing ever happened and now the dev studio was shut down.
No one cared to test the game properly in Offline mode (has nothing to do with the installers, the files installed through Galaxy are exactly the same). As long as the game does not get a User-ID from Galaxy, it won't store certain data. It will still save games, but for changing resolution options for example or for backing up char designs you need to launch it from Galaxy.

The Steam wrapper is the worst if you ask me but in some cases the only way to get devs to publis here, this way they don't have to care about implementing a achievement interface for GOG.
Bbtw, it's not Galaxy related. Heavy Rain uses it and in offline mode it can be used to get actualy controller support(!!!) when Steam is running(without Galaxy).
Posted December 29, 2023
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ChrisGriffin: Is GOG really such a hostile platform to release the games on that even multiple release developers are turning away from it?
No, Steam is really such an attractive platform to lure developers away from gog. That's the problem with monopolies.
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ChrisGriffin: It's unable to retain even the oldest developers.
It's unable to accomodate developers' expectations that are formed, guided and exploited by Valve.
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ChrisGriffin: I just can't understand it.
Not much to understand. When indie developers released on GOG in 2016, they got like five percent of their income from the GOG version (more in certain genres like the p&c adventure game). Now it's less than one percent. When they don't release here day one, income is completely negligible. GOG is not worth the hassle. So they're consolidating their sales on Steam.

If you're really looking for somebody to blame, blame the developers that don't care about the industry, their customer base or their legacy, but only money. Blame customers who flock to Steam or write negative reviews on GOG because of missing "achievements" and assorted other bullshit reasons.
Post edited December 29, 2023 by Vainamoinen
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionIt seems like GOG is unable to retain even their long supporting developers now.(261 posts)(261 posts)
(261 posts)