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MarioFanaticXV: Ah, sorry, kneejerk reaction. I liked V's battle system a lot, though I found the plot rather lacking. Still a great game overall, but in a game with that much dialogue, I consider story to be an important factor.
I actually found story to be fine and to the point. Crystals are shattered, world is in danger. With FF VI it was clear that story was on 1st place and gameplay took a backseat. Also personally I prefer classic villains, like Exdeath/Exodus, instead of some pompous clowns like Kefka, who was rather anticlimactic as villain.
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Sarisio: My father still plays some Red Alert regularly, Diablo II and some Heroes of Might and Magic. In other thread I am discussing wonders of Might and Magic series (with VI part being quite famous for its size).
If he is enjoying those games that's perfectly fine. Having parents who play games seems quite unimaginable to my generation whose parents had zero interest in gaming but this is changing quickly. Nowadays it's common to have more than one gaming generation per family. My best friend's young kids are growing up with Atari 2600 games right now, they are as of yet unaware of the existence of modern games.

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Sarisio: I think that current age made games look like some kind of consumables - you finish game once and never return, instead of looking at games as artpiece, valuing intricacies of game systems, replayability factors, etc.
True for most games then and now. I don't see it as a problem because ultimately, all games are consumables whether they're very arty or not so arty. And there are still more recently released in-depth games on the market than you can ever play. Nowadays are the days of plenty with the widest choice ever and I often get the impression some of the younger folks aren't appreciating their fortune enough.

The innovation curve has flattened out a bit which was to be expected. Making something 90s style original like UFO, MDK, The Neverhood etc appears to have become more rare from a present day perspective but those games were unusual even in their own time, most of the games back then were neither original nor complex.

Regarding intricate complex games with high replayability, there isn't a lesser number of meaty games on the market now, it's just that some of the highest budget productions cater to larger common denominator demographics that didn't play games in the 90s which makes it look like gaming in general is dumbing down. It's all relative anyway, some people in the mid 90s complained about Wing Commander 3 dumbing down gaming because it was the most expensive production and was less complex than the X-Wing series and therefor "dumbing gaming down" with its flashy movies and so on.

Back in the day there was a plethora of simple short games and tons of insipid crap (freeware and commercial) but many of those have been forgotten because we tend to focus on the classics with staying power (HoMM3 etc). There were plenty of one-day games in past decades with zero replayability, they just weren't all in your face 24/7 because internet wasn't common / too slow and the digital distribution platforms of today didn't exist. It was therefor more difficult for games of lesser quality to make the rounds because people wouldn't go out of their way to bootleg/trade something that wasn't worth the effort.

The common myth that there were only a few games released every month back then is quite untrue, there are more non-famous obscure old games out there than anyone could play in their lifetime. That many of us had only few games at a time back then was more due to the high price of games and limited internet speeds. I'm discovering more and more games that were released during my youth but I never even heard about them. It's a bottomless pit.

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Sarisio: And while shooters get their replayability just by their inner nature of provoking release of adrenaline, strategies get it with random maps, map editors, etc., i think it is a shame that most current RPGs disregard or subvert their main replayability factors - character leveling and loot hunting. Level scaling and no-respawn being the worst offenders in this genre, but I think I am going too much off-topic now.
There's nothing wrong with going off-topic, I find it interesting to see how other people think about stuff (any stuff).

I think your complaint is directed at AAA games because in the non-AAA scene, there are great options out there (case in point: Expeditions Conquistador, an indie game of that quality wouldn't have happened in the 90s).
The total number of people who play games has increased drastically and you can't expect AAA productions to cater to core groups, the money follows the majority and the majority by definition has to take into account common denominators.

Besides, if everyone was a "hardcore gamer" then the "hardcore gamers" wouldn't have anything to feel special about :D
Regarding level scaling, I think it's a just lazy game element because it's easier to artificially keep up the challenge by owerpowering recycled mobs rather than throwing new ones at the player. On the other hand, some of the people most opposed to level-scaling are people who like to powergame so that they can (at least in a game) feel extra powerful and level-scaling cramps their style. I can relate to that, it's fun to experiment with character builds in RPGs like BG2 and make funny OP characters but I see that more as a bonus, not a main requirement.

Anyway, there are more in-depth game choices for you out there than you can ever play, we are all very fortunate.
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awalterj: Such annoyances exist in many games, it always comes down to your personal pain tolerance. In Unmechanical, I encountered one aggravating twitch-based puzzle that I almost couldn't get past, it was most likely bugged on my system because the game didn't behave remotely the same way when I checked out that part in various playthrough videos. At that point, I was ready to quit and if I'm generally not having fun with a game then something like that is the last straw. It comes down to a 0 or 1 decision, continue or quit. In Unmechanical, I decided to suffer through that part because I loved the rest of the game but in most other games it would have marked the end - another game for the abandoned pile. I'm glad I didn't do that to Unmechanical because it's a lovely game till the end.
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dtgreene: The thing is that, for some players, things like this can be worse than an annoyance: they are roadblocks that prevent the player from ever seeing the rest of the game.
True, and I have quit a sizable number of games for just a single major grievance. Natural selection, I'd say. Games that fail to entertain deserve to be uninstalled. It sucks when it's a game you paid a lot of money for but ultimately time and avoiding aggravation are more important than money. Regarding FF6, I don't think it has any such game-stopping roadblocks that will make the game indigestible to a notable percentage of players. Final Fantasy games can be grindy and drawn out at times but compared to many PC RPGs, the FF series are tame in comparison with more user friendliness, a wide general appeal, less mental challenge and just a matter of patience to get through. Many older PC RPGS are about as accessible and easy to travel through as North Korea so playing something like FF6 feels like vacation. Chrono Trigger is even more accessible, that's why I recommend playing FF6 first because it's easier to switch from the slower paced FF6 to the more fluid Chrono Trigger. That's originally all I wanted to say in this thread:

-play both FF6 and Chrono Trigger (Captain Obvious)
-play FF6 first because it's more annoying to switch from the fluidity of Chrono Trigger to the more irregular pace of FF6 with its more drawn out dialogue and battles than vice versa


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dtgreene: Chrono Trigger has a different example that can be a problem. Consider a gamer who only has use of one hand. Most of the game is quite playable, though you might need to reduce the battle speed and turn on Wait mode. However, the game, relatively early on, has a spot where you need to press a button combination, which includes both shoulder buttons and I believe 2 of the face buttons, to continue. A fully abled gamer who can use both hands has no trouble here, but someone with only one usable hand isn't going to pass that part without help from another person or some sort of tool.
(How do the smartphone versions handle this part and the button mashing part?)
Haven't thought about that but it's just a fact of life that you need two hands for many things, and people with disabilities such as color blindness and lost limbs etc are always going to encounter situations that become roadblocks at least until tech advances so far that cyberware prosthetics are advanced and available enough, or limbs can be made to grow back via gene therapy or whatever scientific juju.
At present, many games are simply unplayable for one-handed / color blind people etc. Regarding tablet controls, I don't play on tablets or smartphones but often wonder how designers can make games playable at all on touch screens with no other input options. A friend of mine claims that FPS games are perfectly playable on his i-pad but I don't even want to go there...on the other hand I'm surprised with how some games seem more playable with touch screen input. Chip for example is a puzzle game where I got stuck because I'm too slow with the mouse to solve one of the puzzles and I had to quit the game at that point. The game seems to be designed for the mobile market and if I could swipe the screen with my finger things would be a lot more direct. Guess I can either abandon the game permanently or find a way to play it on my Android tablet which I so far haven't used for gaming.
low rated
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dtgreene: Chrono Trigger has a different example that can be a problem. Consider a gamer who only has use of one hand. Most of the game is quite playable, though you might need to reduce the battle speed and turn on Wait mode. However, the game, relatively early on, has a spot where you need to press a button combination, which includes both shoulder buttons and I believe 2 of the face buttons, to continue. A fully abled gamer who can use both hands has no trouble here, but someone with only one usable hand isn't going to pass that part without help from another person or some sort of tool.
(How do the smartphone versions handle this part and the button mashing part?)
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awalterj: Haven't thought about that but it's just a fact of life that you need two hands for many things, and people with disabilities such as color blindness and lost limbs etc are always going to encounter situations that become roadblocks at least until tech advances so far that cyberware prosthetics are advanced and available enough, or limbs can be made to grow back via gene therapy or whatever scientific juju.
At present, many games are simply unplayable for one-handed / color blind people etc. Regarding tablet controls, I don't play on tablets or smartphones but often wonder how designers can make games playable at all on touch screens with no other input options. A friend of mine claims that FPS games are perfectly playable on his i-pad but I don't even want to go there...on the other hand I'm surprised with how some games seem more playable with touch screen input. Chip for example is a puzzle game where I got stuck because I'm too slow with the mouse to solve one of the puzzles and I had to quit the game at that point. The game seems to be designed for the mobile market and if I could swipe the screen with my finger things would be a lot more direct. Guess I can either abandon the game permanently or find a way to play it on my Android tablet which I so far haven't used for gaming.
The issue here isn't the game being unplayable one-handed: it's the fact that the entire game is playable one-handed *except for this one part*. As a result, a game that should be accessible is not. The issue could be solved by removing that one requirement, or by asking the player to input buttons in sequence (with no time limit) rather than simultaneously.

Color blindness is only a problem if developers are careless and refuse to fix the accessibility issue. In nearly all cases, this can be fixed, either by displaying the written out name of the color (seen in Dust: An Elysian Tale (if color-blind mode is enabled) and Disgaea 2), or by using different patterns or shapes as well as colors (Tetris Attack and its offspring, as well as many other action puzzlers, and even Bejeweled).
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awalterj: Regarding tablet controls, I don't play on tablets or smartphones but often wonder how designers can make games playable at all on touch screens with no other input options. A friend of mine claims that FPS games are perfectly playable on his i-pad but I don't even want to go there...on the other hand I'm surprised with how some games seem more playable with touch screen input. Chip for example is a puzzle game where I got stuck because I'm too slow with the mouse to solve one of the puzzles and I had to quit the game at that point. The game seems to be designed for the mobile market and if I could swipe the screen with my finger things would be a lot more direct. Guess I can either abandon the game permanently or find a way to play it on my Android tablet which I so far haven't used for gaming.
They're actually quite playable if you get used to touchscreen input or swiping or such gestures and motions to play the games. And yes, FPS games are perfectly playable on touchscreen devices. It all comes down to how the developers design the touch screen controls. If the design is really well and responsive, touchscreens will work wonders, if not then probably the rest of the game is not really designed well.

That is if assuming the developers didn't add in game controller integration into the game. If they did, you could always plug in a Bluetooth controller or a traditional USB controller and that'll work fine with the game.
I have the android version of the 3D, nintendo DS remake of FF4. I highly reccommend it. Also I have the android version of Chrono Trigger.
I haven't finished chrono trigger but I have FF 6. I din't know why is ff 6 so overrated. I have liked many other more of final fantasys. Like I usually say at this point.. people should play more wild arms 1. It was great.
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Antimateria: I haven't finished chrono trigger but I have FF 6. I din't know why is ff 6 so overrated. I have liked many other more of final fantasys. Like I usually say at this point.. people should play more wild arms 1. It was great.
I don't know myself. FFV is a better game overall but still FFVI gets all the fun. I have to learn why like soon.
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Antimateria: I haven't finished chrono trigger but I have FF 6. I din't know why is ff 6 so overrated. I have liked many other more of final fantasys. Like I usually say at this point.. people should play more wild arms 1. It was great.
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PookaMustard: I don't know myself. FFV is a better game overall but still FFVI gets all the fun. I have to learn why like soon.
And if we are talking about a bit nostalgia games.. I loved shadow hearts 1 in ps2.

Edit: Just PC gamers will never know how good games are personas.. Infact I've tought that I should have some playstation when persona 5 comes. But I'm thinking about that.. I don't have a TV and haven't had a console in years, like in really many years.
Post edited October 22, 2015 by Antimateria
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dtgreene: The issue here isn't the game being unplayable one-handed: it's the fact that the entire game is playable one-handed *except for this one part*. As a result, a game that should be accessible is not. The issue could be solved by removing that one requirement, or by asking the player to input buttons in sequence (with no time limit) rather than simultaneously.
Ah ok, I see you're referring to Chrono Trigger specifically and perhaps to other games where one single small fix could make the entire game one-hand friendly, I'd certainly welcome that even for myself as I often eat in front of the computer and need one hand to hold my little fork/spoon while the other hand builds cities and destroys worlds.
Just as long as it doesn't remove any actual gameplay, that I would not be cool with regardless of how handicapped-friendly the game becomes but in many cases smart design control options could probably solve things elegantly for (almost) everyone.

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dtgreene: Color blindness is only a problem if developers are careless and refuse to fix the accessibility issue. In nearly all cases, this can be fixed, either by displaying the written out name of the color (seen in Dust: An Elysian Tale (if color-blind mode is enabled) and Disgaea 2), or by using different patterns or shapes as well as colors (Tetris Attack and its offspring, as well as many other action puzzlers, and even Bejeweled).
As long as it doesn't limit the game's options, I see nothing that speaks against making games more accessible to the disabled from the get-go. Of course one can't possibly expect developers to retroactively adapt all their old games, especially not small studios with limited budgets and staff. Naturally, you can't and don't have to make every game for everyone. Blind people can't play a vast majority of games, mentally retarded people can't play Spacechem (even many so called normal people can't, including myself :D ), severely arachnophobic people are just going to have to pass on a couple hundred games if they can't get a handle on it, double amputees are going to have a somewhat hard time with TIE Fighter or any games that requires many keys, and so on.
If someone has enough drive and ingenuity, individual solutions can surprisingly often be found, within certain limits of course. Youtube is full of inspiring videos of disabled people pulling of amazing stuff, here's a gaming example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08CUhMUziwE

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PookaMustard: They're actually quite playable if you get used to touchscreen input or swiping or such gestures and motions to play the games. And yes, FPS games are perfectly playable on touchscreen devices. It all comes down to how the developers design the touch screen controls. If the design is really well and responsive, touchscreens will work wonders, if not then probably the rest of the game is not really designed well.

That is if assuming the developers didn't add in game controller integration into the game. If they did, you could always plug in a Bluetooth controller or a traditional USB controller and that'll work fine with the game.
How are they going to adapt games like Duke3D where you need keys for flying up and down with the jetpack, hotkeys for medikits and steroids and choosing weapons etc? I can not imagine how one can play it without mouse & keyboard or mouse & gaming keypad. You'd get brutally murdered in multiplayer if you're on a tablet against someone using traditional input.
Post edited October 23, 2015 by awalterj
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gunshellmav: Oh man.
That question is like, "What organ in your body do you like better, the liver or the heart?"
They're both amazing in different ways.
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Ki11s0n3: True, but I was just asking which to buy. I just need a good game to play on my phone. Though I am enjoying the conversation about them as well.
I'm not the best in knowing technology, but if you're playing this on your phone then you might want to consider Chrono Trigger over FF6. The sole reason (and probably a poor one) is that there's this player character named Sabin (one of the most OP characters in the game) in FF6 that uses Blitz as his special ability--and it requires input commands not unlike Ryu's Hadoken from Street Fighter to pull them off. I can imagine that being an absolute hell to pull off on a phone.
I don't think Chrono Trigger has many (if any at all) sensitive input commands like that. It's been years since I last played it though, so I could be wrong.
Sorry I could be more help. Good luck with whichever you choose though!
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Ki11s0n3: True, but I was just asking which to buy. I just need a good game to play on my phone. Though I am enjoying the conversation about them as well.
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gunshellmav: I'm not the best in knowing technology, but if you're playing this on your phone then you might want to consider Chrono Trigger over FF6. The sole reason (and probably a poor one) is that there's this player character named Sabin (one of the most OP characters in the game) in FF6 that uses Blitz as his special ability--and it requires input commands not unlike Ryu's Hadoken from Street Fighter to pull them off. I can imagine that being an absolute hell to pull off on a phone.
I don't think Chrono Trigger has many (if any at all) sensitive input commands like that. It's been years since I last played it though, so I could be wrong.
Sorry I could be more help. Good luck with whichever you choose though!
Unlike actual Street Fighter-style commands, Sabin's inputs aren't time-sensitive. So if it's Down, Down-Forward, Forward, you can actually take your time with the command and do it slowly, taking a few seconds to do it if needed.
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gunshellmav: I'm not the best in knowing technology, but if you're playing this on your phone then you might want to consider Chrono Trigger over FF6. The sole reason (and probably a poor one) is that there's this player character named Sabin (one of the most OP characters in the game) in FF6 that uses Blitz as his special ability--and it requires input commands not unlike Ryu's Hadoken from Street Fighter to pull them off. I can imagine that being an absolute hell to pull off on a phone.
I don't think Chrono Trigger has many (if any at all) sensitive input commands like that. It's been years since I last played it though, so I could be wrong.
Sorry I could be more help. Good luck with whichever you choose though!
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MarioFanaticXV: Unlike actual Street Fighter-style commands, Sabin's inputs aren't time-sensitive. So if it's Down, Down-Forward, Forward, you can actually take your time with the command and do it slowly, taking a few seconds to do it if needed.
Oh man. And all these years I thought it was time sensitive.
Mind blown. +1 for sharing that.
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Ki11s0n3: Which one should i get for my android phone? I've played CT but not FF6
Go for Golden Sun 1+2 for the GBA instead, they are both infinitely better! ;)

But if you insist, I personally think CT is better, but I've only played FF6 briefly and got fed up with the endless encounters, since I don't have time for that anymore. Golden Sun has much more less of them, fighting is faster in my opinion (and more fun with more options due to the various jobs you can play around with to make it more interesting), you've got great puzzles both inside and outside of dungeons that are solved by your Psy powers, and it also has best graphics and music out of all of them. And the story feels more like exploring the world and being on a meaningful, personal journey to save the world them those two.
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Ki11s0n3: Which one should i get for my android phone? I've played CT but not FF6
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Green_Hilltop: Go for Golden Sun 1+2 for the GBA instead, they are both infinitely better! ;)

But if you insist, I personally think CT is better, but I've only played FF6 briefly and got fed up with the endless encounters, since I don't have time for that anymore. Golden Sun has much more less of them, fighting is faster in my opinion (and more fun with more options due to the various jobs you can play around with to make it more interesting), you've got great puzzles both inside and outside of dungeons that are solved by your Psy powers, and it also has best graphics and music out of all of them. And the story feels more like exploring the world and being on a meaningful, personal journey to save the world them those two.
I agree Golden Sun is amazing