It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
low rated
avatar
Stig79: If all you see is stats and numbers, then yes. I guess at high levels the non humans would be useless at higher levels. I wouldn't call them useless for RP reasons though. Not every character has to be the ultimate killing machine either.
avatar
dtgreene: Not everyone has to be the ultimate killing machine, but every character needs to be at least *viable*. Let's take the Pools of Darkness situation as an example (the game is based on 1e rules, where the level limits are worse than 2e, and the level cap for humans is 40). In this game, a female halfling fighter can't (without cheating, of course, but I'd say cheating would be justified in this case) advance past level *4*. That's 56 HP *maximum*. Consider that you have a 2e THAC0 of 17 (that's worse than a level 20 mage, who would have 14 THAC0 under 2e rules), and you can't even fulfill your role as well as a character in a completely different rule. Then a 20th level enemy casts Delayed Blast Fireball and you're caught in the area, taking on average (and assuming a failed saving throw, since saving throws are poor at low levels) of 90 damage (1e doesn't cap such spells); that's a lot when you have only 56 HP, and that's with perfect HP rolls. (Also, keep in mind that you don't get any extra attacks for levels; you *might* (in BG rules) have regular mastery in one weapon type, but that wouldn't be enough to save the character.)

Basically, the level limits have the effect of making such characters not viable at all. Get into a combat encounter, and that character's player basically has to sit out the entire encounter, as actually trying to participate would result in the character dying without accomplishing anything. This is not fun gameplay, and the developers should be ashamed of themselves for including such a rule in the first place.

Remember, the developers of the Baldur's Gate series chose to intentionally not implement the rule; there is a good *reason* for this.

avatar
Stig79: If someone changed your gender against your will, I am sure you would be a bit upset too. And it wouldn't be transphobic of you if you did.
avatar
dtgreene: You do realize that argument only works if the person you're talking to is cisgender, right?

avatar
oldnose: "Transphobia," if such a thing is actually a word, would not have existed as a word when Baldur's Gate was made. They were called crossdressers.
avatar
dtgreene: According to Merriam-Webster, "transphobia" is indeed a word. Also, there is a huge difference between a crossdresser and a transgender person.
The reason why they didn't implement that stuff is because BG is a huge game. Having a lower level limit for races would break the game. The level limit in 1ed got expanded later, though. Because the game itself got bigger and more advanced. That is what you do when you create a game like d&d and it becomes a success. You expand on it.

No that argument works on anyone. If you are a male in a female body, you have an operation to get a cock, and then someone removes it against your will afterwards you would be upset. The whole point is having your sexual organ removed against your will. That would be upsetting to anyone no matter what gender they are\feel like they are.

Transphobia is indeed a word. All be it a very new one. BG2, however, is not transphobic.

You might want to check Siege of Dragonspear out. That one is downright hostile towards trans people. Under the guise of "progressive" of course. The cleric character in it is named Mizhena...the writer changed one letter from the Czhec word for "shemale" and used it as a character name. That is right. the writer added a trans character to score social points, and named her "Shemale".
avatar
Roahin: The way I see it, you're condemning a handful of trailblazing game pioneers decades before your social mores even existed. I can't fathom Gygax and Arneson were sitting in their basement with their glued together Stegosaurus "red dragons" wringing their hands and discussing in villainous overtones on how they were going to create a No Girlz Allowed! club out of this whole "dungeons and dragons" thing they were inventing.

Sure, having females operating at lower stats ultimately does deincentivize people toward playing them. But only the shrillest of social crusaders would honestly believe those two toy-loving old coots were trying to exclude attack women in a misogynistic red haze 40 years ago. They were in uncharted waters. There was nothing like D&D before it came along. You find it easy to judge their balancing missteps with the 20/20 hindsight of someone that has seen the thousands of games all built off this prototype that they created. You have that advantage, they did not.

Honestly, shame on you. Shame on you for besmirching those dead men's names and legacies.
avatar
dtgreene: There are a few things I can say.

First, there is a quote attributed to Gary Gygax in which he claims to be a "biological determinist", a belief that has been the source of such horrific misapplications of science such as Social Darwinism and Scientific Racism. So, it is quite possible (and very likely IMO) that he actually was being deliberately sexist in making that rule. (I consider biological determinism to be inherently sexist and transphobic, especially since it actually goes against what science actually says.)

Second, the fact that Gary Gygax was a trailblazer does not exempt him from criticism. There is no reason to exclude him from criticism on issues like racial and gender limits, which many DMs houseruled away, and which disappeared as the game went into later editions. (On the other hand, it is still possible to enjoy a work and be critical of it at the same time.)

By the way, for those who defend the female strength rule, what should the strength cap for non-binary PCs (those who aren't male or female) be? (I note that 5th edition D&D explicitly allows non-binary characters.)

Side note: The bigoted belief that girls don't play these sort of games is also why Bard's Tale 1 and 2 have no female characters (except for a princess you can optionally rescue in 2 who doesn't look anything like a princess).
The previous editions allow for non-binary characters too. There is nothing in the rules that prevent such things. As for your other point. If you are born with a male body you have the musclemass of a male. Hence no str penalty. Transgendered people are breaking world-records at women's sports all over the place these days. Why do you think that is?

It wasn't a bigoted belief at all. Back then mostly guys did play d&d. It was just how it was. Now adays more and more girls are playing it too, and that has nothing to do with the rules.

Fun fact. A female friend of mine is a massive fan of the Bard's Tale games. She even has them boxed. I doubt she would love them that much if she thought they were bigoted.

And how do you know how a princess looks in the Bard's Tale universe? It doesn't take place in our world.
Post edited May 23, 2017 by Stig79
low rated
avatar
Stig79: Fun fact. A female friend of mine is a massive fan of the Bard's Tale games. She even has them boxed. I doubt she would love them that much if she thought they were bigoted.
The Bard's Tale series is actually an interesting one to look at in this context. (Note that I am only looking at the 3 classic games, not the other game with the title that was released in the last decade.)

Anyway, one thing that makes Bard's Tale 1 and 2 different from 1e AD&D is that Bard's Tale 1-2 does not have female characters at all (ignoring the rather strange exception). All party members are assumed male (and are referred to as "him" during battles; monsters are often "it", never "her"), and you don't meet female characters during the adventure. As a result, the gender bias isn't blatantly obvious unless you look for it. (I note that there is no gender selection during character creation, unlike Eschaton Book !, which has gender on the character creation screen but doesn't let you change it.)

By contrast, 1e AD&D lets you play a female character, but punishes you for doing so. In saying "only male characters are allowed high strength", the sexism becomes immediately obvious. It's as if the developers are only begrudgingly allowing you to play a female character. (The racial level limits seem to serve a similar purpose, but for races.) In any case, the sexism is more overt in games like this, or in a case like Eschalon Book 1, where the character creation has a gender field, but if you try to change it, the game gives you a BS message to the effect of "this story only works for a male character".

Going back to Bard's Tale, I could point out that Michael Cranford, the developer of Bard's Tale 1 and 2, is a conservative Christian, and he left the gaming industry to devote his life to religion. By contrast, when Bard's Tale 3 was developed, the game's programmer (Rebecca Heinemann) was allowed to make creative decisions about the game (including the decision to add female characters), and she transitioned from male to female many years after she wrote the game. (Another interesting note: while BT1 and 2 assume your characters are male, BT3's import character routine does *not*, and instead asks you.)

Another case of sexism that isn't obvious is the otherwise great book Gödel, Escher, Bach, whose dialogues contain no major female characters. I actually didn't realise the sexism when I first read it; it's not until I read the 20th Anniversary Edition's preface (in which the author explicitly points this out) that I realized it.
low rated
avatar
Stig79: Fun fact. A female friend of mine is a massive fan of the Bard's Tale games. She even has them boxed. I doubt she would love them that much if she thought they were bigoted.
avatar
dtgreene: The Bard's Tale series is actually an interesting one to look at in this context. (Note that I am only looking at the 3 classic games, not the other game with the title that was released in the last decade.)

Anyway, one thing that makes Bard's Tale 1 and 2 different from 1e AD&D is that Bard's Tale 1-2 does not have female characters at all (ignoring the rather strange exception). All party members are assumed male (and are referred to as "him" during battles; monsters are often "it", never "her"), and you don't meet female characters during the adventure. As a result, the gender bias isn't blatantly obvious unless you look for it. (I note that there is no gender selection during character creation, unlike Eschaton Book !, which has gender on the character creation screen but doesn't let you change it.)

By contrast, 1e AD&D lets you play a female character, but punishes you for doing so. In saying "only male characters are allowed high strength", the sexism becomes immediately obvious. It's as if the developers are only begrudgingly allowing you to play a female character. (The racial level limits seem to serve a similar purpose, but for races.) In any case, the sexism is more overt in games like this, or in a case like Eschalon Book 1, where the character creation has a gender field, but if you try to change it, the game gives you a BS message to the effect of "this story only works for a male character".

Going back to Bard's Tale, I could point out that Michael Cranford, the developer of Bard's Tale 1 and 2, is a conservative Christian, and he left the gaming industry to devote his life to religion. By contrast, when Bard's Tale 3 was developed, the game's programmer (Rebecca Heinemann) was allowed to make creative decisions about the game (including the decision to add female characters), and she transitioned from male to female many years after she wrote the game. (Another interesting note: while BT1 and 2 assume your characters are male, BT3's import character routine does *not*, and instead asks you.)

Another case of sexism that isn't obvious is the otherwise great book Gödel, Escher, Bach, whose dialogues contain no major female characters. I actually didn't realise the sexism when I first read it; it's not until I read the 20th Anniversary Edition's preface (in which the author explicitly points this out) that I realized it.
You do realize that BT is a very old game, right? It has very few features to begin with. Games like that laid the groundwork for the rpgs we have today. Back in those days you basically had a class, stats and a name. Thats it. You were lucky if you even got a character portrait for your character. This is like complaining about Citizen Kane not being filmed in HD.

Some stories only work with male characters, others only work with female characters. I haven't played Eschalon so I can't comment on that one. The Longest Journey, for example, works best with a female protagonist for sure. If you actively look for sexism, you can find it in every game out there. It is easy to find if you ignore context.

Michael Cranford wasn't a devout christian when he made Bard's Tale? So...why is that even an argument? Rpgs were considered satan's game by christians back in those days too, so...Not sure what you are getting at. Adding female character options in the third game isn't something that is unusual. It is the third game. Of course they would add more features to it. Look at all the added features in BG2. The first game didn't have half of those.

The Lord of the Rings didn't have many female characters either. Guess what? They were written during WWI. Society was different back then. Tolkien didn't write the books for SJWs anno 2016 California. He wrote it for the society around him at the time. You can't bash writers for not being up to date on current social issues when their work was done a hundred years ago.

What is next? Mythology is sexist because Odin was male?
low rated
avatar
Stig79: What is next? Mythology is sexist because Odin was male?
Wait for it...

:D
low rated
Apparently trolling isn't limited to the Dogturd forum. Some have a special talent for it.
My god, this is just getting ridiculous. I will just para-phrase Sol from Pi "if your mind get obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out, and find that thing everywhere."
Post edited May 23, 2017 by Lebesgue
low rated
This is what Tumblr addiction looks like, I think.
Hey guys! A piece of media made decades ago doesn't fall in line with today's societal changes! How dare the creators not be psychics? I have never been so offended in my life.
avatar
Stig79: Fun fact. A female friend of mine is a massive fan of the Bard's Tale games. She even has them boxed.
Here's an interview that she might like (actually, I think every Bard's Tale fan should read it):
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134614/the_burger_speaks_an_interview_.php

Also, if you have the Apple 2gs version of Bard's Tale 1, try saying that the Mad God's name is "burger" and watch what happens (and probably get killed, but that's another story). This can also be done in any version of Bard's Tale 3, minus that parenthetical note.

Edit: Why is this post, which has a link to a very nice interview, "low rated"?
Post edited June 24, 2017 by dtgreene
low rated
EDIT:
Browser acting weird. Wrong thread, too many tabs open.
Post edited June 24, 2017 by ZFR
low rated
avatar
stika: Hey guys! A piece of media made decades ago doesn't fall in line with today's societal changes! How dare the creators not be psychics? I have never been so offended in my life.
Right on brother/sister/zim/zur/it/undecided affiliation!

Seriously though, beamdog forums still make me want to take all the heroin......ALL of it, every last nanogram.

I don't know what it is but both the mod compilation editions have decided not to give me a random trip to the desktop quite as often these days.

Still not playing SoD (interesting how that abbreviation works out), so how I ended up at Irenicus Health & Beauty Spa will remain a mystery.
low rated
avatar
Stig79: Fun fact. A female friend of mine is a massive fan of the Bard's Tale games. She even has them boxed.
avatar
dtgreene: Here's an interview that she might like (actually, I think every Bard's Tale fan should read it):
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134614/the_burger_speaks_an_interview_.php

Also, if you have the Apple 2gs version of Bard's Tale 1, try saying that the Mad God's name is "burger" and watch what happens (and probably get killed, but that's another story). This can also be done in any version of Bard's Tale 3, minus that parenthetical note.

Edit: Why is this post, which has a link to a very nice interview, "low rated"?
No clue. I didn't downvote it at least. I read and enjoyed the interview you posted.

Maybe it got downvoted because it isn't on-topic?