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General discussionAnnouncement: Big Preorders & Launch Day Releases Coming!(4041 posts)(4041 posts)
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Posted February 21, 2014
The DRM-Free Revolution Continues with Big Pre-Orders and Launch Day Releases!

Good news! GOG.com is going to bring you more fantastic launch day releases, preorders, and other exciting new content from some of our favorite developers. We've lined up 3 big titles that we will be bringing to GOG.com in the next couple of months for sale or preorder that we think will be hits with all of our gamers; and we have more equally exciting games coming up soon.

If you've been a member of the site for a long time, you may recall that when we launched sales of The Witcher 2 on GOG.com, we had to add in regional pricing. The game cost different amounts in in the US, the UK, the European Union, and Australia. We're doing something like that once again in order to bring you new titles from fantastic bigger studios. Since we don't accept currencies other than USD on GOG.com right now, we'll be charging the equivalent of the local price in USD for these titles. We wish that we could offer these games at flat prices everywhere in the world, but the decision on pricing is always in our partners' hands, and regional pricing is becoming the standard around the globe. We're doing this because we believe that there's no better way to accomplish our overall goals for DRM-Free gaming and GOG.com. We need more games, devs, and publishers on board to make DRM-Free gaming something that's standard for all of the gaming world!

That brings with it more good news, though! As mentioned, we have three games we're launching soon with regional pricing--two RPGs and a strategy game--and while we can't tell you what they are yet because breaking an NDA has more severe penalties than just getting a noogie, we're confident that you'll be as excited about these games as we are. For a limited time, we will be offering anyone who pre-orders or buys one of them a free game from a selection as a gift from GOG.com, just like we did for The Witcher 2.

If you have any questions, hit us up in the comments below and we'll be happy to answer (to the best of our ability).

EDIT: Since we've answered a lot of the common questions already here (and lest you think that we've ignored you), it may be handy for you to check out the forum thread about this and search for staff answers by clicking this link here. (hat tip to user Eli who reminded us that the feature even exists. :)
Posted February 23, 2014
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Niggles: For the record since Divinity Original Sin is being mentioned, steam stores have the following prices :

AUD 39.99
US 39.99
And yet witcher 2 cost $26 more in Australia at launch, so it is purely up to the publisher's mood.

I preordered Witcher 2 from GOG, *purely* because of their fight against regional pricing at the time. I still haven't even played the game.
Posted February 23, 2014
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MaceyNeil: What is more reprehensible having a rip off deal, or retracting others right to choose in a free market.
I don't have to deal with rip off deals, i can ignore them.
People like you I have to constantly do battle with to protect my consumer rights to choose.
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AngryAlien: Coming from someone who lives in the U.S., who neither has to deal with rip-off deals like regional pricing, nor has to ignore them, because he can get his games with a Dollar-sign behind the price. When you come from Germany (or any other european country) things might look a tiny bit different. You know, when your new AAA games still has the "60" on the price tag, but suddenly there is an "€" behind the number, making your game more then 30% more expensive...
It's the same in Australia AngryAlien but here the 60 euros is like AUD$120 to AUD$160 A GAME! how would you Like to pay 160 Euro's for a Fucking game huh! WE IN AUSTRALIA get Shafted BIG TIME! plus we have a 50% Australia tax on IT products like Games and Hardware like PC parts! It's actually CHEAPER to buy a Complete PC Here and then Upgrade the Shit out of it!
Posted February 23, 2014
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sivartwoa: I didn't read all the stuff posted about this "slippery slope" thing, but since there seems to be a lot of confusion about it, here's an fyi:

There is no "slippery slope" as a formal logical fallacy, which means any interpretation of such a fallacy is purely subjective. There is no way to logically conclude definitively if someone has committed a 'slippery slope' fallacy, so arguments over whether or not someone has are absolutely moot.

Most times "slippery slope" fallacies can be converted into categorically syllogisms, or other formal fallacy that can then be proved invalid. When doing so, you should show the person you're talking to this conversion. It's much harder with inductive arguments, as most of these are. Therefore, one should aim to prove the argument unlikely (weak) rather than prove it impossible or completely wrong. In essence, when someone commits a slippery slope fallacy (S happened, which will absolutely lead to P) the common (wrong) reaction is also illogical. The correct answer to an assumed slippery slope fallacy is almost always "that is <b>unlikely</b> to be true because X piece of information does not strongly support Y conclusion".

Be aware that just because you believe someone has made a slippery slope argument does not mean that they are wrong. The best course of action in discussion is to request more information on what steps will occur between the initial event (GOG forsaking its level-pricing promise) and the conclusion (the world coming to an end). It is possible the person can provide a series of logical arguments (possibly even deductive ones) that will support their argument.
I think you were (mostly) replying to me.

I agree somewhat (all arguments against doing a certain action are predictive, so merely having a predictive argument is itself not a fallacy), but there is a slippery slope fallacy - i.e. it makes an argument that a course has a momentum applied to it existing outside of the internal logical connections that drives one from the start to some conclusion. That's the fallacy aspect. I agree it is difficult to judge and the best course is to judge the links (if there are any unless the argument relies purely on the momentum argument). Often the more links and steps required the more likely it is to be a slippery slope argument, but you are right that is not always the case.

I don't believe that some of the arguments in this thread were slippery slope at all because they were one-step arguments not requiring a momentum imparted from future actions.
Posted February 23, 2014
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Niggles: For the record since Divinity Original Sin is being mentioned, steam stores have the following prices :

AUD 39.99
US 39.99
GBP 29.99
Euro 39.99
Brazilian real 69.99
Ukraine 19.99

Wasteland 2 (bearing this mind this is more expensive tier they have put up on early access)

AUD 59.99
USD 59.99
GBP 34.99
Euro 44.99
Brazilian real 99.99
Ukraine 29.99

Both cases AUD/USD identical. GBP pays more for DOS, Euro pays more for W2. Brazil and Ukraine pay lot less for either..... .....
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crazy_dave: Those are not unreasonable.

Regional Pricing done right is potentially more fair than even the flat rate price - however, it all too often is not.

So I will wait and see what GOG allows :)
Those are absurdly unreasonable. Compare 40USD to 40EUR for D:OS - this is a difference of 37%! Naturally, a publisher and its toadies would cry that this is because of taxes, VAT.

Well guess what: the VAT for digital games sold by Steam in Europe is only 15%!
So:
37-15=22% pure price gouging by publishers. GOG itself has said regional prices are a rip off http://youtu.be/nRdfYwvGTos
Posted February 23, 2014
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crazy_dave: Those are not unreasonable.

Regional Pricing done right is potentially more fair than even the flat rate price - however, it all too often is not.

So I will wait and see what GOG allows :)
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Dreadz: Those are absurdly unreasonable. Compare 40USD to 40EUR for D:OS - this is a difference of 37%! Naturally, a publisher and its toadies would cry that this is because of taxes, VAT.

Well guess what: the VAT for digital games sold by Steam in Europe is only 15%!
So:
37-15=22% pure price gouging by publishers. GOG itself has said regional prices are a rip off http://youtu.be/nRdfYwvGTos
I'll just repost this:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/announcement_big_preorders_launch_day_releases_coming/post2523
Not really though - exchange rate =/= purchasing power. People in Germany, France, and the UK spend Euros and pounds like dollars in their countries (that's why when you visit the US, prices are cheap to buy goods here as the dollars' exchange rate is weaker than the Euro on the international market). Regional pricing is designed to take that into account and be more reflective of domestic purchasing power. The problem is that a lot of people from poorer European countries also pay the same Euro prices and AU & NZ get jacked up prices for different reason related to retail. Some asian countries might also get shafted or treated fairly, but I don't know their pricing schemes all that well.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by crazy_dave
Posted February 23, 2014
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Dreadz: Those are absurdly unreasonable. Compare 40USD to 40EUR for D:OS - this is a difference of 37%! Naturally, a publisher and its toadies would cry that this is because of taxes, VAT.

Well guess what: the VAT for digital games sold by Steam in Europe is only 15%!
So:
37-15=22% pure price gouging by publishers. GOG itself has said regional prices are a rip off http://youtu.be/nRdfYwvGTos
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crazy_dave: I'll just repost this:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/announcement_big_preorders_launch_day_releases_coming/post2523

Not really though - exchange rate =/= purchasing power. People in Germany, France, and the UK spend Euros and pounds like dollars in their countries (that's why when you visit the US, prices are cheap to buy goods here as the dollars' exchange rate is weaker than the Euro on the international market). Regional pricing is designed to take that into account and be more reflective of domestic purchasing power. The problem is that a lot of people from poorer European countries also pay the same Euro prices and AU & NZ get jacked up prices for different reason related to retail. Some asian countries might also get shafted or treated fairly, but I don't know their pricing schemes all that well.
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crazy_dave:
I'll just leave this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
Posted February 23, 2014
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Ichwillnichtmehr: Living in Germany, I would pay 37,5% more for D:OS over US price.

UK would be 25% over US price.
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crazy_dave: Not really though - exchange rate =/= purchasing power. People in Germany, France, and the UK spend Euros and pounds like dollars in their countries (that's why when you visit the US, prices are cheap to buy goods here as the dollars' exchange rate is weaker than the Euro on the international market). Regional pricing is designed to take that into account and be more reflective of domestic purchasing power. The problem is that a lot of people from poorer European countries also pay the same Euro prices and AU & NZ get jacked up prices for different reason related to retail. Some asian countries might also get shafted or treated fairly, but I don't know their pricing schemes all that well.
I admit that I am not all that versed in exchange rate vs. purchasing power, and I only know about the money I spend, and I would spend 37,5% more in the regional pricing scheme, if we assume the US price as the base price.

It wouldn't kill me, but spending 1/3 more for the same product isn't something I would look forward to.
Posted February 24, 2014
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crazy_dave: Not really though - exchange rate =/= purchasing power. People in Germany, France, and the UK spend Euros and pounds like dollars in their countries (that's why when you visit the US, prices are cheap to buy goods here as the dollars' exchange rate is weaker than the Euro on the international market). Regional pricing is designed to take that into account and be more reflective of domestic purchasing power. The problem is that a lot of people from poorer European countries also pay the same Euro prices and AU & NZ get jacked up prices for different reason related to retail. Some asian countries might also get shafted or treated fairly, but I don't know their pricing schemes all that well.
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Ichwillnichtmehr: I admit that I am not all that versed in exchange rate vs. purchasing power, and I only know about the money I spend, and I would spend 37,5% more in the regional pricing scheme, if we assume the US price as the base price.

It wouldn't kill me, but spending 1/3 more for the same product isn't something I would look forward to.
The link posted by DarkAXI0M explains it. I should've just linked to that - an exchange rate for goods based on purchasing power parity would be the most fair for digital goods, though I understand why people don't as it different goods will have different rates and so forth. Regional pricing can be thought of a stab at that, but is too course-grained and often gets manipulated for reasons beyond purchasing power.

Basically the common thing we think of as the exchange rate is what countries and banks pay for goods and currency traded to each other. But it is not always in (rough) equilibrium with how we spend currency in our home country. That's why you'll sometimes see travel people trying to sell you on visiting certain countries as "cheap" because you'll buy currency at some exchange rate from a bank and then spend money in that country at a lower rate.
Post edited February 24, 2014 by crazy_dave
Posted February 24, 2014
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crazy_dave: I think you were (mostly) replying to me.

I agree somewhat (all arguments against doing a certain action are predictive, so merely having a predictive argument is itself not a fallacy), but there is a slippery slope fallacy - i.e. it makes an argument that a course has a momentum applied to it existing outside of the internal logical connections that drives one from the start to some conclusion. That's the fallacy aspect. I agree it is difficult to judge and the best course is to judge the links (if there are any unless the argument relies purely on the momentum argument). Often the more links and steps required the more likely it is to be a slippery slope argument, but you are right that is not always the case.

I don't believe that some of the arguments in this thread were slippery slope at all because they were one-step arguments not requiring a momentum imparted from future actions.
I really wasn't replying to anyone in particular, honest. I started at the end of the thread, read back a couple pages, and realized people weren't speaking the same language to each other. Many of the conflicts in this thread just seem to be people misunderstanding the positions of others, or not being able to communicate their positions eloquently.
Posted February 24, 2014
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crazy_dave: I think you were (mostly) replying to me.

I agree somewhat (all arguments against doing a certain action are predictive, so merely having a predictive argument is itself not a fallacy), but there is a slippery slope fallacy - i.e. it makes an argument that a course has a momentum applied to it existing outside of the internal logical connections that drives one from the start to some conclusion. That's the fallacy aspect. I agree it is difficult to judge and the best course is to judge the links (if there are any unless the argument relies purely on the momentum argument). Often the more links and steps required the more likely it is to be a slippery slope argument, but you are right that is not always the case.

I don't believe that some of the arguments in this thread were slippery slope at all because they were one-step arguments not requiring a momentum imparted from future actions.
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sivartwoa: I really wasn't replying to anyone in particular, honest. I started at the end of the thread, read back a couple pages, and realized people weren't speaking the same language to each other. Many of the conflicts in this thread just seem to be people misunderstanding the positions of others, or not being able to communicate their positions eloquently.
Ah .... you and I used very similar language then :) and I agree!
Posted February 24, 2014
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Niggles: I do *hope* they can either compromise in future or just say "F*ck it those prices are too ridiculous - we decline offer to sell *that* game.
IMO is the end consumer who ALWAYS should have the option to say "F*ck it those prices are too ridiculous", otherwise gog would be deciding for us and we are not little kids anymore, we vote with our money and they have the tools to gauge what does that mean.
Posted February 24, 2014
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Niggles: I do *hope* they can either compromise in future or just say "F*ck it those prices are too ridiculous - we decline offer to sell *that* game.
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mangamuscle: IMO is the end consumer who ALWAYS should have the option to say "F*ck it those prices are too ridiculous", otherwise gog would be deciding for us and we are not little kids anymore, we vote with our money and they have the tools to gauge what does that mean.
I think retailers and companies can be part of that discussion too - For instance as part of competing against other stores, GOG has an imperative to draw people to their store. For GOG that has meant that they don't want to flood the store with games people don't want to buy because they are either shovel-ware or badly priced which may make it harder to find good games at good prices and cause people to leave. Of course it is a balancing act between that and making sure they are offering people contact they want, causing them to go elsewhere (hence the wish list).
Post edited February 24, 2014 by crazy_dave
Posted February 24, 2014
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Ekaros: For some of us the DRM is smaller evil of the two.

The other one forces me to install third party software and the other one cost me significantly more, currently I take the savings...
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Senteria: I stand with you. If I have to choose between filling in some key in order to use the game I downloaded, I'd be totally fine with it actually. I cared way more about flat pricing.
the Truth is as a Pensioner I can't afford the Price of brand spanking new games every week so GOG and HB is where I go Damn it! I take the Steam keys only because I have a shitty internet connection that fucks up halfway through downloading things and need something that Resumes the download where my net Fucks it up! that's why I get the steam codes! our old Copper wire network is just Not up to scratch!
Posted February 24, 2014
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Ichwillnichtmehr: I admit that I am not all that versed in exchange rate vs. purchasing power, and I only know about the money I spend, and I would spend 37,5% more in the regional pricing scheme, if we assume the US price as the base price.

It wouldn't kill me, but spending 1/3 more for the same product isn't something I would look forward to.
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crazy_dave: The link posted by DarkAXI0M explains it. I should've just linked to that - an exchange rate for goods based on purchasing power parity would be the most fair for digital goods, though I understand why people don't as it different goods will have different rates and so forth. Regional pricing can be thought of a stab at that, but is too course-grained and often gets manipulated for reasons beyond purchasing power.

Basically the common thing we think of as the exchange rate is what countries and banks pay for goods and currency traded to each other. But it is rarely in equilibrium with how we spend currency in our home country. That's why you'll sometimes see travel people trying to sell you on visiting certain countries as "cheap" because you'll buy currency at some exchange rate from a bank and then spend money in that country at a lower rate.
Thanks for trying to explain this, and thanks DarkAXI0M for the link, I'll give it a thorough read when I have more time.

Although on skimming over the lists, Germany's PPP is 11%-13% over US PPP, which, like you said, does not account for all the difference.
Posted February 24, 2014
high rated
I didn't read all of this slippery slope stuff, but want to comment because a lot of folks say or hear that "the slippery slope is a logical fallacy" and assume that means that one can never connect the dots, and that's absolutely untrue.

If one step may lead to another, the fallacy part of the slippery slope fallacy is to suggest it WILL happen. That is a fallacy. But it's not a fallacy to say one step MAY be followed by this other step, but it's not absolutely certain it will.

I assume this discussion is based on (again I didn't read it sorry) the "Since gog ended one world one price, DRM free will end."

Said like that, it is indeed a fallacy. However, there is nothing logically wrong in saying "Because gog compromised once on a core value, it does mean future compromises are possible and more likely."

Past behavior is a valid indicator of future acts, and we fairly use that all the time. In our jobs, in our relationships, etc. If a person lies once, for example, it is indeed fair to suggest that may lie again, because they've shown a willingness to do it. gog has now shown a willingness to break a core value, to go to the trouble of changing their main page and even trying to hide it on youtube. It is indeed absolutely a fair indicator that the chances of them someday ending their DRM-free policy is higher than it was before they showed a willingness to break a core value. But it's a fallacy to say they absolutely WILL break another core value.
Post edited February 24, 2014 by OldFatGuy
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Community
General discussionAnnouncement: Big Preorders & Launch Day Releases Coming!(4041 posts)(4041 posts)
(4041 posts)