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LePeureux: @darktjm About the part where I kill drunks, didnt mention in original post but you have 3 dialogue options 2 to avoid fight using the (persuade) skill and a 3rd to fight. That implies that without the proper level of persuade you are forced to fight. The joke is that even say they are upper class citizens and low class ppl like us should get out of the upper city, then they procede to fight to death and throw away their high society life.

@macAilpin I liked torment but didnt play more than a few hours because i got stuck and the game was lacking good combat (story was great). Baldurs gate 1 and fallout 1 blew my mind away, and I didnt even grew up on these games, they were already 10-15 years old when I picked them up so nostalgia was not a factor . The whole elder scrolls serie. Legend of grimrock (The immersion given by the introduction text) . Geneforge 1, Arcanum, Witcher 1.

I started a game of neverwinter nights 1 and I am not yet convinced if i like the game or not but it looks promising.
Tried dragon age 1, uninstalled and reinstalled several times, found the story to be bland.

Avernum 1 had possibly the best writing ive ever seen in a video game.

I really liked mass effect 1 and its the perfect game to compare kotor to. Everythink I disliked in kotor wasnt in that game. Combat was good and worthy of cranking up the difficulty (I see no reason to do so in kotor). Story was awesome and felt more serious, you dont see sheperd fooling around a bike race to save the universe. ME1 is like kicking ass and KOTOR is chewing bubblegum. Thats how I see things
Thanks. BG1 was and is something. U7 was the only other game that grabbed me that way. (I picked up U7 to learn DOS. Picked gaming along with it. Blessing or a curse?) But ME1 wasn't able to play. The Intel Integrated Chip problem. Love Sci-Fi (which is why I like Kotor), so I regret not being able to play ME.
Good Luck with Neverwinter.
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darktjm: KOTOR takes place 4000 years before the movies, so I'm not sure why you expected them to be consistent.
Since it has Star Wars on the label, it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to be consistent with the universe they are "playing" in. The fact that it takes place thousands of years before the movies is an even more ridiculous premiss when they get to copy/keep the visual style of nearly everything as if nothing had changed. It's like having your cake and eating it too.

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darktjm: Then again, maybe the reason I loved it when it came out was because it was "not Star Wars". I bought it before reviews because I was bored, had an X Box, and liked Bioware. I own exactly 0 Star Wars games other than KOTOR 1 & 2, and have no desire for any.
Okay...?
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darktjm: Then again, maybe the reason I loved it when it came out was because it was "not Star Wars". I bought it before reviews because I was bored, had an X Box, and liked Bioware. I own exactly 0 Star Wars games other than KOTOR 1 & 2, and have no desire for any.
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Alexrd: Okay...?
My point was to counter the argument by several in this thread that KOTOR was only successful because it was Star Wars. I personally don't care for the Star Wars universe, although some aspects are entertaining. The game is great despite its Star Wars connections, not because of it.

As to the rest of your response, I'd argue further on the consistency issue (or lack thereof, even within the movies) if I cared, but I don't. Note that everything had to be approved by Lucas in the end (and LucasArts played some small parts in development), so these games are canon whether you like it or not.
I started playing kotor 2, since ive already paid for it. It is so much better than the first to me. The writing is actually good and makes up for the flaws. I guess obsidian is just better at writing rpgs
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darktjm: My point was to counter the argument by several in this thread that KOTOR was only successful because it was Star Wars. I personally don't care for the Star Wars universe, although some aspects are entertaining. The game is great despite its Star Wars connections, not because of it.
It was not "only successful" because it was Star Wars, but the fact that it was contributed immensely for it's success. There were many good RPGs but this was a good RPG set in the Star Wars universe. Star Wars is appealing and sells.

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darktjm: As to the rest of your response, I'd argue further on the consistency issue (or lack thereof, even within the movies) if I cared, but I don't. Note that everything had to be approved by Lucas in the end (and LucasArts played some small parts in development), so these games are canon whether you like it or not.
The games are not canon, wether I like them or not. They were canon to the Expanded Univser when Lucas was in charge and considered it to be its own thing. Still both now and then, they are irrelevant to the actual canon of the movies, but it would be nice if they were made at least compatible with them.
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LePeureux: @macAilpin I liked torment but didnt play more than a few hours because i got stuck and the game was lacking good combat (story was great). Baldurs gate 1 and fallout 1 blew my mind away, and I didnt even grew up on these games, they were already 10-15 years old when I picked them up so nostalgia was not a factor . The whole elder scrolls serie. Legend of grimrock (The immersion given by the introduction text) . Geneforge 1, Arcanum, Witcher 1.

I started a game of neverwinter nights 1 and I am not yet convinced if i like the game or not but it looks promising.
Tried dragon age 1, uninstalled and reinstalled several times, found the story to be bland.
So you didn't like Torment or Dragon Age enough to finish either. I am pretty sure you aren't going to like NWN either. Because combat is similar to Dragon Age, Torment and KOTOR (KOTOR based off the NWN game engine BTW).

Also you can break down doors/chests with weapons in NWN. ;)
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LePeureux: @macAilpin I liked torment but didnt play more than a few hours because i got stuck and the game was lacking good combat (story was great). Baldurs gate 1 and fallout 1 blew my mind away, and I didnt even grew up on these games, they were already 10-15 years old when I picked them up so nostalgia was not a factor . The whole elder scrolls serie. Legend of grimrock (The immersion given by the introduction text) . Geneforge 1, Arcanum, Witcher 1.

I started a game of neverwinter nights 1 and I am not yet convinced if i like the game or not but it looks promising.
Tried dragon age 1, uninstalled and reinstalled several times, found the story to be bland.
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PeterScott: So you didn't like Torment or Dragon Age enough to finish either. I am pretty sure you aren't going to like NWN either. Because combat is similar to Dragon Age, Torment and KOTOR (KOTOR based off the NWN game engine BTW).

Also you can break down doors/chests with weapons in NWN. ;)
Said I didnt finish DA because of the bland story not the combat. And i know torment has the same system than those games but its just kinda boring with a solo character. I prefer squad based D&D games.

But also with kotor you cant issue move orders to your party and the AI is bugged as hell so its less enjoyable.

And you are right I didnt like NWN either. Might try NWN2 i heard it has more squad combat.

As for the door bashing, at least kotor 2 made it better by forcing you to use a plasma torch or something to be able to bash
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LePeureux: And you are right I didnt like NWN either. Might try NWN2 i heard it has more squad combat.
The evidence isn't that KOTOR is bad, it's that you are extraordinarily fussy.
I had almost the same thoughts about KOTOR as LePeureux. I really didn't like Tarris part of the game. Small maps, with almost copy/paste locations (Hutts in cantinas??) with pretty looking but non-tactical combat. But then I realise something... this is NOT a modern RPG (I've played it after playing Witcher 2) it's a BioWare RPG! Basically a Baldur's Gate in 3D in SW universe. And now it all make sens... killing every Sith in a base just to grab some plot-wise thingy and gain XPs. It's not a stealth game when you can play non-leathal etc. I've played this before, but in bird's eye perspective!

Then... Tarris ended and game opens up... planets are still too small for my tasting, but the plot and ESPACIALY characters that can join you become very, very good wirten. More like a jRPG than a western one.
Not to mention the famous plot twist. All this years and it's still the best!

I'm playing KOTOR right now so I will have an oportunity to verify (or not) my memories.
Honestly I think people shouldnt ever compare this game to BG and every GoG review doing so should be deleted. All my disappointment in this game came from the expectations i had after reading such reviews.

This game is too recent to be labeled a cRPG but not enough to be a modern rpg.

Sad thing is my HDD died just when I managed to leave Taris. Might give it another try if I can find a mod to skip it.
Why not to compared it? Becouse BG it's a classic? KOTOR game mechanics are closer to Infinity engine than to Mass Effect ones. I'll say that KOTOR is a "missing link" between 90's classics and modern RPG and clearly shows genre evolution. It has dialog/choices driven plot but kill everyone, open all doors, search every cabinet and go to another map, gameplay mode :)
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pykman: Why not to compared it? Becouse BG it's a classic? KOTOR game mechanics are closer to Infinity engine than to Mass Effect ones. I'll say that KOTOR is a "missing link" between 90's classics and modern RPG and clearly shows genre evolution. It has dialog/choices driven plot but kill everyone, open all doors, search every cabinet and go to another map, gameplay mode :)
KOTOR is most closely aligned with the Aurora Engine from NWN.

NWN, NWN2, Jade Empire, KOTOR, KOTOR 2 and even Witcher 1, are all based on Aurora or modified versions of it.

I played and enjoyed them all. Like most of the games of that Era/Engine, it is more about playing the Hero and letting the game engine handle your sidekick, than about party control. I actually prefer this because RPG is all about playing your character, not about playing six of them for me.


This thread inspired a replay of KOTOR 1, and I am having a great time.

Sure there are things you can nit pick, but even today, this game is still a lot of fun being a Jedi and wielding a Lightsaber.
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pykman: Why not to compared it? Becouse BG it's a classic? KOTOR game mechanics are closer to Infinity engine than to Mass Effect ones. I'll say that KOTOR is a "missing link" between 90's classics and modern RPG and clearly shows genre evolution. It has dialog/choices driven plot but kill everyone, open all doors, search every cabinet and go to another map, gameplay mode :)
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PeterScott: KOTOR is most closely aligned with the Aurora Engine from NWN.

NWN, NWN2, Jade Empire, KOTOR, KOTOR 2 and even Witcher 1, are all based on Aurora or modified versions of it.

I played and enjoyed them all. Like most of the games of that Era/Engine, it is more about playing the Hero and letting the game engine handle your sidekick, than about party control. I actually prefer this because RPG is all about playing your character, not about playing six of them for me.

This thread inspired a replay of KOTOR 1, and I am having a great time.

Sure there are things you can nit pick, but even today, this game is still a lot of fun being a Jedi and wielding a Lightsaber.
Theres a difference between role playing a character and giving him a tactical order. Currently the party control is a huge mess.
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LePeureux: [ Theres a difference between role playing a character and giving him a tactical order. Currently the party control is a huge mess.
KOTOR is an RPG, Role Playing Game, and not a tactical combat game. Like most of the Aurora games, it is about Playing your character, not controlling your sidekicks.
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PeterScott: NWN, NWN2, Jade Empire, KOTOR, KOTOR 2 and even Witcher 1, are all based on Aurora or modified versions of it.
Yup, I know they based on the same engine, but for me it's more of a change in games presentation than in a "philosophy" of BioWare RPG (ok. change from party to single character in NWN was a novelty but in KOTOR were back for a team play :))

I didn't play NWN or Jade Empire to speak of their gamplay but for me KOTOR was just a familiar BioWare expirience, including combat mechanics with all its auto-pause and all. For me Witcher 1 was game that pushed the engine to it's limit and provide a different feel to gameplay.

Party control in KOTOR is simple but effective. Just a button press to change party memeber, give them orders, hit SPACE, watch outcome, repeat. Not very tactical (Jedi powers can help with that) but most of game battles are rather short so player can get back to dialaog options ;)

Yup it has it flaws, it's not the best RPG out there, but give it a chance and it might just pay off.