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Atlantico: To be charitable, it's on par in linearity with the "go from point A to point B to progress to the end of the line" System Shock 2. What some people think or incorrectly perceive as "freedom" in SS2 is that after unlocking the elevator shaft one is free to visit any level of the vB, but in reality there's nothing there - the only way is follow the dotted line to the Rickenbacker. There's no interactions, no new areas, nothing not already covered in the dotted line one followed to begin with.

Point being, it's neither here nor there your particular definition of linearity, rather that Shadow Warrior is as linear as System Shock 2 and faaaar less linear than Doom, Quake or the like.
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JDR13: To claim that the new Shadow Warrior is far less linear than Doom or Quake is laughable.

So what you're saying is that because you have to accomplish certain objectives in a particular order to finish the game (or level), that makes it linear? Even if you're free to roam anywhere you want?

So by your definition, games like Fallout, Grand Theft Auto, Oblivion, Skyrim, etc., are also linear.

Like I said, you seem to have a different definition of linear than most.
Just because you don't understand what you're talking about, don't let that stop you. But there won't be any more replies to you from me, no point to it.

First of all you'd need to understand what the even broad definition of linearity means and second of all you'd need basic reading comprehension to parse even the simplest things I wrote before.

So no, by my definition Fallout, GTA etc are not linear, but then you'd know that if you could read.
Aww... is someone angry now? That's cute. :)

I guess that's pretty much what I was expecting though. When someone doesn't have a leg to stand on, they always revert to personal insults sooner than later.

Have a good one bro. ;)
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HenitoKisou: Talk about meh game, go home, play COD. This one? No way. That's closest 3D modern recreation of 2.5D Build game. People often have fake memories about old classics through nostalgia googles. Everything SW has it's here and even more, don't fix what is not broken and this reboot is faithful to it's original formula. Nothing more satisfying to be expected from this. Stay cool, play both games as frequent as possible, see similarities, fell into deep well of real nostalgia driven experiences today. Wait for it, embrace. Nothing can spoil that moment. ;-)
I'm playing the original Shadow Warrior right now. There's a HUGE difference between the combat in the original and the combat in the remake. Combat in the remake is the spawning-mob-driven circle-strafe formula of Painkiller, where survival is about dodging and strafing, and you can very easily survive standing out of cover in view of enemies. The original Shadow Warrior will kill you brutally if you try to do that. It is a much more methodical game, and gunplay revolves around eliminating threats (of which there are significantly less per encounter) as quickly as possible, and minimizing the amount of time you're our of cover in view of enemies. People who think the 90s were all about circle-strafing around hordes of enemies obviously haven't played the Build Engine games in awhile, because they are NOTHING like that. That was the territory of Doom and Quake (although even they are notably different than the modern games that cite them as inspiration).

The level design of the remake is at least a rough approximation of the level design in the original, in that there is some backtracking and some secrets, but it's not what I'd call extremely faithful. The backtracking feels very directed, the secrets are far from hidden, and the pacing is completely different (it's the Painkiller thing of locking you in arena after arena and not letting you out until you've killed the requisite number of spawning enemies). In level design, I'd sooner compare SW 2013 to games like Halflife 2 or Doom 3 than Shadow Warrior. There are a lot of little differences that add up to something that doesn't feel the same at all.

And, of course, there's the fact that everything from the weapon and enemy behavior to your character abilities are completely different. Not even rough approximations of the original. Just completely different.

I do quite like the new Shadow Warrior, but it's no more a faithful remake of the original than Halo is a spiritual successor to Doom. And I'm not going by nostalgic memories. I've actually been doing some back-to-back comparisons of the original SW and the remake, just for fun, and I never even touched the original until this year.
Tust finished it.
T'was a generic shooter, right down to the boring turret sequences (invuln on), controltaking story-all-over-the-place/donotcare cutscenes, door-does-not-open-until-wave-is-over, unlocks, and doors you don't know if you can go back if you open them, while opening many black nearly invisible crates to also please that mmo-loot-crowd, whilst listening to uncreative humor of a "funny sidekick" or the protagonist. Oh, and the objects to interact, like keyslots etc, are pretty invisible (example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRCHb-cEcp4&t=9m58s).
The original had none of this.

Once in a while you walk to some forklift and thinking "aww, in shadow warrior you could drive these". It's like watching al bundy with a fake al.

It makes me kind of sad because the actual gameplay (you know, fighting the scheduled monsterwaves) rivals the original shadow warrior. Oh, and the fortune cookies actually are funny.

Once again, flying wild hog, next time, please label it "dark warrior" or something, and do not slap "shadow warrior" on such titles.
Post edited January 02, 2014 by AlienMind
Edit: Nevermind
Post edited January 03, 2014 by Chaser98
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jefequeso: I'm playing the original Shadow Warrior right now. There's a HUGE difference between the combat in the original and the combat in the remake. Combat in the remake is the spawning-mob-driven circle-strafe formula of Painkiller, where survival is about dodging and strafing, and you can very easily survive standing out of cover in view of enemies. The original Shadow Warrior will kill you brutally if you try to do that. It is a much more methodical game, and gunplay revolves around eliminating threats (of which there are significantly less per encounter) as quickly as possible, and minimizing the amount of time you're our of cover in view of enemies. People who think the 90s were all about circle-strafing around hordes of enemies obviously haven't played the Build Engine games in awhile, because they are NOTHING like that. That was the territory of Doom and Quake (although even they are notably different than the modern games that cite them as inspiration).
If you constantly died using strafe and waited in corridors without tactical approach just to outsmart AI like scared sheep I'm sorry for you, but you did it wrong. SW has selection of tools that in good combination let you be untouchable even by enemies by UZIS and no need to pasuses for taking breath. I played all Build games and it's exactly like that, if you memorize enemies behaviour and how weapons and inventory works in connection to them, you are bigger threat that these moving sprites with no brain. It's something more than running in circles, it's dashing into enemies face in chain reaction of gameplay with shooting precisely right weapon with right inventory item with exactly tactically chosen spot in map vs lone enemy or group of them. If you did it good, no one can stand against you. In SW and Blood, heck even in RR. Not talking about Duke because enemies were so stupid that any weapon was superior against them

The level design of the remake is at least a rough approximation of the level design in the original, in that there is some backtracking and some secrets, but it's not what I'd call extremely faithful. The backtracking feels very directed, the secrets are far from hidden, and the pacing is completely different (it's the Painkiller thing of locking you in arena after arena and not letting you out until you've killed the requisite number of spawning enemies). In level design, I'd sooner compare SW 2013 to games like Halflife 2 or Doom 3 than Shadow Warrior. There are a lot of little differences that add up to something that doesn't feel the same at all.
Depending of what you chosen to play original, basic original formula is untouched minus leftover part of engine and AI limitations. Gameplay in remake is more complex with easier to launch sequence of tactcal engineered events from the player side and map design speaks for it. In original SW levels has only one true path to secret and solve map, other paths were details and decorative rooms for viewing it as fake freedom, showing to eyes of player as open space but because of predetermined places and sole purpose of map either you can't go there or there is no reason to go (no secrets, no weapons/items or monsters.

And, of course, there's the fact that everything from the weapon and enemy behavior to your character abilities are completely different. Not even rough approximations of the original. Just completely different.
Monsters to weapons behavior is the same to more tactical approach as monsters to weapons behaviour in original tactics - do something wrong and be killed or have less flow in gameplay. Unforgiving as it was.
I do quite like the new Shadow Warrior, but it's no more a faithful remake of the original than Halo is a spiritual successor to Doom. And I'm not going by nostalgic memories. I've actually been doing some back-to-back comparisons of the original SW and the remake, just for fun, and I never even touched the original until this year.
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HenitoKisou:
I never said that the original SW involves "waited in corridors without tactical approach." I said it's a more methodical game. You have to know what you are getting into before you get into it, and once you're in it you have to act quickly. In the new game, you can stand out of range in full view and leisurely contemplate your next move. You couldn't do that in the original without taking a lot of damage. Your post just confirms exactly what I said: the combat in the original SW is different than the combat in the new one. The old one involved thinking about your strategy before getting into combat, the new one is about adopting on the fly. The new one is about dodging, the old one was about eliminating things quickly before they could damage you.

If you want proof, go jump into the first level of the original game. Try dashing into new rooms as you would in the new game. Don't select an appropriate weapon or inventory item first. Don't enter in a way that you know will work best. Just run in, and once you're in the room, then adapt. It doesn't work very well, does it?
Post edited January 05, 2014 by jefequeso

If you want proof, go jump into the first level of the original game. Try dashing into new rooms as you would in the new game. Don't select an appropriate weapon or inventory item first. Don't enter in a way that you know will work best. Just run in, and once you're in the room, then adapt. It doesn't work very well, does it?
Been there done that so...
It's exactly the same to me at least. But I tried tactical approach first in original game, then in reboot with success. Also tried with no tactics and adapt and mistakes hurt the same way first in original then in reboot. With different weapons, enemies and maps adjusted to gameplay equivalent of original but because you see, hear and feel differently you play other way and doesn't notice it. I had similar problem after PK and other games or like playing SW after Blood. If environment and reality changes but gameplay/flow is intact and your way how you live/act not you feel certain fake to it. I treat reboot as same in gameplay and rest of the stuff as game on it's own and it's play exactly the same as original not because I changed the game but because I changed my paradigm, perception, to correct my reactions in same gameplay but different game reality. Game reality is predictable, simulated world, if basic gameplay is the same, your reactions is the same but everything else is not you either get used to it or blame game of feeling different in gameplay or not being faithful if it's more than engine/content reskin lol. ;-)
Post edited January 05, 2014 by HenitoKisou

If you want proof, go jump into the first level of the original game. Try dashing into new rooms as you would in the new game. Don't select an appropriate weapon or inventory item first. Don't enter in a way that you know will work best. Just run in, and once you're in the room, then adapt. It doesn't work very well, does it?
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HenitoKisou: Been there done that so...
It's exactly the same to me at least. But I tried tactical approach first in original game, then in reboot with success. Also tried with no tactics and adapt and mistakes hurt the same way first in original then in reboot. With different weapons, enemies and maps adjusted to gameplay equivalent of original but because you see, hear and feel differently you play other way and doesn't notice it. I had similar problem after PK and other games or like playing SW after Blood. If environment and reality changes but gameplay/flow is intact and your way how you live/act not you feel certain fake to it. I treat reboot as same in gameplay and rest of the stuff as game on it's own and it's play exactly the same as original not because I changed the game but because I changed my paradigm, perception, to correct my reactions in same gameplay but different game reality. Game reality is predictable, simulated world, if basic gameplay is the same, your reactions is the same but everything else is not you either get used to it or blame game of feeling different in gameplay or not being faithful if it's more than engine/content reskin lol. ;-)
Yes, different people have different playstyles, but different FPSs will encourage or discourage certain things, depending on how your health works, how your weapons handle, how enemies act, what abilities you have, etc. That's why the combat in Call of Duty feels different than the combat in Painkiller. Or, the combat in Serious Sam feels different than the combat in Blood. Or the combat in Halo feels different than the combat in Call of Duty. There are differences between the new SW and the old SW. That's a fact. Differences in how the health works, how the enemies behave, what abilities you have, how you avoid damage in combat, how quickly you can eliminate enemies, the pacing of levels, etc. Whether those differences are enough to differentiate the two is a matter of opinion. You're entitled to yours, of course. But as someone with a lot of experience with all sorts of FPSs, and someone who has actually specifically compared the two games in question back-to-back, it is my opinion that the new SW is a much different game than the original.

To me, the biggest difference--or rather, most important difference--is how the player avoids taking damage. In fact, I think that's a very important part of every FPS. Because in the old one, you avoided damage mostly by acting quickly. Since a lot of enemies had hitscan weaponry, there wasn't any good way of dodging around bullets. In contrast, the new one is all about dodging. So acting quickly to eliminate threats is no longer important, and combat plays out slower, with little to no need to use cover to keep from taking damage. This is also something that sets Id Software's FPSs apart from 3d Realms' titles, in a pretty big way.

Also note that I'm not saying the new SW is a bad game, or a bad reboot. Just that it's a different sort of FPS.
Post edited January 05, 2014 by jefequeso
I agree with jefequeso's assessment. Most importantly, Duke Nukem was developed when people were still using keyboard for most of the control.
Post edited February 26, 2014 by leeho730