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I read a lot more wikis, tried a couple of builds with a character editor and decided I want to go with a party setup like this. I spent about 20h last week on getting to now the mechanics and get a overview of all the spells and abilities. Since this is a CRPG game I want to have the full builds of the main character and all companions figured out before I start the game so I don't gimp myself and suffer later. I am going to play on normal difficulty with enemies set to 1.0 strength, normal and regular Crits.

Party:
- Valerie Tower Shield Specialist / Thug/ Stalwart Defender (Tank). Not as effective as Vivi/Monk dips but at least it makes somewhat sense RP-wise.
- Linzi Full Bard Support/Control
- Octavia Rogue/Wizard/AT Nuker
- Jaethal 2nd Row DD/Support

This leaves 1 DD spot for Ekundayo/Jubliost/Amiri. Ekun and Jubilost seems the most reasonable for their resting abilities.

For the main character I just cannot decide.

1) Assimar DEX Sword Saint with 1 level dip into Scaled Fist. Seems reasonable for all the AC stacking he can get with DEX/INT/CHA, self buffs, Dodge, Crane line, Wings while still doing some damage with fencing grace.
Will this work, even if I don't use the +5AC protector's robe? Will the high DEX be enough t rarely get caught fla-footed or will I must get wrecked in melee because without DEX and Dodge armor this character is dead meat. Also he is rather redundant since Regognar could pretty much fill the same role.

2) Sorcerer/Scaled Fist/DD tank
Another unarmored tank, be a nuker mid game and use dragon form endgame
Looks fun, but I read focusing too much on caster DPS will make you suffer later in the game and I don't know if he will hit anything with those Spell DCs.

I won't have a dedicated healer this way. While I do understand that healing is a trap in this game and your are better off not getting hit in the first place, eventually you will get hit from spells/failed DCs/natural 20s. So isn't a cleric mandatory, so he can heal up during resting? Only healing 1 HP/ 8 hours without healing spells left sounds really low for a game where time limits are everywhere.

3) Tank/Cleric
A dedicated cleric for buffs/protection spells and healing that is also able to tank would make the most sense, since these are the roles that are really missing in my party lineup above. However, I read that melee clerics are a trap since they are always going to suck AB/AC wise.

3)a) Ecclesitheurge of Gozreh
Using the pet to tank while he stands back for nuking/healing/buffing.
Might work early game bug the pet supposedly cannot tank later without Monster Tactician levels. Is considered a poor man's Sylvan Sorcerer, so probably not all that effective.

b) Melee Cleric. Is Full Plate + Tower Shield any good? Is something like a Crusader of Abbadar viable, because a melee cleric is going to be feat starved anyway? Or do you absolutely have to go lawful good monk dip? Then an Ecclesitheurge is probably the better choice, since we are not going to wear armor anyway.

3c) Shifter druid. Traditional Mok Dip is certainly an requirement, as always, but should be tanky enough then. Sounds great in theory, but he wont do much healing, since he cannot spontaneously cast healing spells.
Noob question: Does the 3AC dodge bonus from dragon/aasimar wings still apply when shape shifted?
So you're into "gamery" after all, and that's absolutely fine (it's your game). Ironically, that makes this whole thread a farce.
Post edited August 26, 2019 by Hickory
Lawful-Neutral, Aasimar
1 Tower-Shield Specialist, 19 Cruader Crusaader of Abadar
Domain: Protection

1 Fighter - Armor Focus: Heavy, Improved unarmored Combat
2 Cleric - Shield Focus
3 Cleric -
4 Cleric - Dodge, Weapon Focus
5 Cleric
6 Cleric - Crane Stylel
7 Cleric
8 Cleric - Extend Spell
9 Cleric
10 Cleric - Wings
11 Cleric - Greater Shield Focus
12 Cleric - Crane Wing
13 Cleric
14 Cleric - Outflank
15 Cleric
16 Cleric - Greater Weapon Focus, Crane Riposte
17 Cleric
18 Cleric - Combat Expertise
19 Cleric
20 Cleric - whatever, won't reach it in campaign anyway

Would something like this work or is it a typical Cleric that neither hits anything nor does he ever reach a competent AC
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ColinMacLaren: Lawful-Neutral, Aasimar
1 Tower-Shield Specialist, 19 Cruader Crusaader of Abadar
Domain: Protection

1 Fighter - Armor Focus: Heavy, Improved unarmored Combat
2 Cleric - Shield Focus
3 Cleric -
4 Cleric - Dodge, Weapon Focus
5 Cleric
6 Cleric - Crane Stylel
7 Cleric
8 Cleric - Extend Spell
9 Cleric
10 Cleric - Wings
11 Cleric - Greater Shield Focus
12 Cleric - Crane Wing
13 Cleric
14 Cleric - Outflank
15 Cleric
16 Cleric - Greater Weapon Focus, Crane Riposte
17 Cleric
18 Cleric - Combat Expertise
19 Cleric
20 Cleric - whatever, won't reach it in campaign anyway

Would something like this work or is it a typical Cleric that neither hits anything nor does he ever reach a competent AC
Kinda late response, but it's more of the latter.
There is nothing wrong with it per se, except generally.
1. Cleric has no mirror image, which automatically makes him meh tank
2. Going armored is hard as you will struggle with your touch AC. Generally speaking classes that can afford to go armored have an amazing in-built AC ramp and even then will struggle getting touch AC high.
3. Protection is not that great. You would serve yourself better with community or water(for a castery cleric, which is a preferable option).
4. Taking a fighter early does nothing for you, except slows your progression to animate dead, which is one of the best clerics selling points to begin with, as it comes as a level 3 spell
5. Crusader is a trap. Few feats are generally not worth a domain. Cleric generally wants to be a caster first and foremost and really doesn't want to be on the front-lines at all. If you want castery fighters - sorcs/bards/maguses do it a whole lot better. Technically, strength domain does give access to transform, but it comes as a level 9 spell, which is not exactly awesome. On the same not as monk AC is king of the game Ecclesi17/M1/V2 is a better version of this as cognatogen would boost the DC's of blade barrier and whatnot(not that it matter that much. vivi levels would come at 19-20, which would not happen before late-game even with a bit of cheese)..
6. With all DLC's and not skipping content/skill-checks it is possible now to get to 20 with a party of 6 with no abuse. although you won't get the chance to toy with it much as you will get 20 pretty much at the big bad of the game.
7. You don't really need 19 levels of cleric. You get lvl9 spells at 17, so you have 3 levels to spend and if you are not so concerned about casting to begin with - you don't need extra slots either. Mass heal you will use scrolls for in the endgame anyway, so...
That being said, the thing is not so bad for a challenging run, although I'd toss CE into the nearest river.
Post edited August 29, 2019 by InEffect
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ColinMacLaren: Lawful-Neutral, Aasimar
1 Tower-Shield Specialist, 19 Cruader Crusaader of Abadar
Domain: Protection

1 Fighter - Armor Focus: Heavy, Improved unarmored Combat
2 Cleric - Shield Focus
3 Cleric -
4 Cleric - Dodge, Weapon Focus
5 Cleric
6 Cleric - Crane Stylel
7 Cleric
8 Cleric - Extend Spell
9 Cleric
10 Cleric - Wings
11 Cleric - Greater Shield Focus
12 Cleric - Crane Wing
13 Cleric
14 Cleric - Outflank
15 Cleric
16 Cleric - Greater Weapon Focus, Crane Riposte
17 Cleric
18 Cleric - Combat Expertise
19 Cleric
20 Cleric - whatever, won't reach it in campaign anyway

Would something like this work or is it a typical Cleric that neither hits anything nor does he ever reach a competent AC
avatar
InEffect: Kinda late response, but it's more of the latter.
There is nothing wrong with it per se, except generally.
1. Cleric has no mirror image, which automatically makes him meh tank
2. Going armored is hard as you will struggle with your touch AC. Generally speaking classes that can afford to go armored have an amazing in-built AC ramp and even then will struggle getting touch AC high.
3. Protection is not that great. You would serve yourself better with community or water(for a castery cleric, which is a preferable option).
4. Taking a fighter early does nothing for you, except slows your progression to animate dead, which is one of the best clerics selling points to begin with, as it comes as a level 3 spell
5. Crusader is a trap. Few feats are generally not worth a domain. Cleric generally wants to be a caster first and foremost and really doesn't want to be on the front-lines at all. If you want castery fighters - sorcs/bards/maguses do it a whole lot better. Technically, strength domain does give access to transform, but it comes as a level 9 spell, which is not exactly awesome. On the same not as monk AC is king of the game Ecclesi17/M1/V2 is a better version of this as cognatogen would boost the DC's of blade barrier and whatnot(not that it matter that much. vivi levels would come at 19-20, which would not happen before late-game even with a bit of cheese)..
6. With all DLC's and not skipping content/skill-checks it is possible now to get to 20 with a party of 6 with no abuse. although you won't get the chance to toy with it much as you will get 20 pretty much at the big bad of the game.
7. You don't really need 19 levels of cleric. You get lvl9 spells at 17, so you have 3 levels to spend and if you are not so concerned about casting to begin with - you don't need extra slots either. Mass heal you will use scrolls for in the endgame anyway, so...
That being said, the thing is not so bad for a challenging run, although I'd toss CE into the nearest river.
Good advice.
Thanks for the advice. I forwent the idea of a battle cleric and made three toons to toy around with in act 1.

One is the DEX Sword Saint. He needs a couple of levels to become somewhat competent.
I completely get wrecked. My party after alignment decisions at the end of the Prologue is
MC/Valerie/Jeathal/Amiri. Thorn fort was kinda OK, but on the way to the Abandoned House I run into a group of the Techno League and my level 2 party just gets destroyed. I am also clueless how this group is supposed to beat the Bear-like Treant at the Temple of the Elk.

Second run was with a Druid and Val/Linzi/Amiri. Techno League went like a breeze. The Treant gave me trouble and went down on tenth try or something. Went pure Druid since Defender of the True World does not get spontaneous summoning (any more?) Druid was the class I wanted to play in the first place, but everywhere in the forums I was told they are bad.

Third run was with a Sylvan Sorcerer but I only finished the Prologue so far.

How am I supposed to beat these encounters when the C still needs like two or three levels to get going? Is is just me or am I too stupid for this game if I am already struggling at the very beginning?
Post edited September 02, 2019 by ColinMacLaren
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ColinMacLaren: - One is the DEX Sword Saint. He needs a couple of levels to become somewhat competent.
well... don't start as saint even if you are going to end up with it. That being said, dex saint is a bad idea to begin with.

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ColinMacLaren: I completely get wrecked [...] I run into a group of the Techno League and my level 2 party just gets destroyed. I am also clueless how this group is supposed to beat the Bear-like Treant at the Temple of the Elk.
imagine this: that encounter was nerfed (both of them, actually). Treant is pretty easy - his touch AC sucks. Octavia or pretty much anyone with touch attacks can shred him. League... That's a level 3+ encounter. You should've been derping around the old sycamore at that point. The game has no level gating. You can and probably will run into things you are totally not ready to fight.

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ColinMacLaren: everywhere in the forums I was told they are bad.
Druid is not "bad". Creeping doom can carry you through most of the game. Problem is druid is much better at degenerate solo unfair play, than at normal party playthrough. That being said, come late-game druid gets pretty good spells to his name and just needs metamagic to extend those to other levels

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ColinMacLaren: How am I supposed to beat these encounters when the C still needs like two or three levels to get going? Is is just me or am I too stupid for this game if I am already struggling at the very beginning?
well... from a metagame perspective:
1. Hire a conjuration sylvan sorc (unless you are one) asap.
2. Apply grease liberally
3. ???
4. Profit.

Then there are a bunch of tricks you can pull off with exp manipulation and other kinky stuff, but that's more for unfair prologue, which is a pain. As to general dificulty - DnD/PF are always brutal at first levels, because base weapon damage is not too far off hp total, and PK features a bit souped up enemies to even on normal.

Just power through it would be my advice. Any difficulty that makes you struggle without (excessive) save-scumming is exactly right.
Post edited September 02, 2019 by InEffect
magine this: that encounter was nerfed (both of them, actually). Treant is pretty easy - his touch AC sucks. Octavia or pretty much anyone with touch attacks can shred him. League... That's a level 3+ encounter. You should've been derping around the old sycamore at that point. The game has no level gating. You can and probably will run into things you are totally not ready to fight.
I don't understand. I just followed the main story. I went Olegs Trading Post -> Thorn Fort -> Abandoned House -> Temple of the Elk. I always get ambushed by Techno League on the road between Abandoned House and Temple of The Elk. I don't have Ocativia at that point.

Val and Amiri are is just Melee, Jeathal has Inflict Minor Wounds and Divine Graze for a whopping two casts.

magine this: that encounter was nerfed (both of them, actually). Treant is pretty easy - his touch AC sucks. Octavia or pretty much anyone with touch attacks can shred him. League... That's a level 3+ encounter. You should've been derping around the old sycamore at that point. The game has no level gating. You can and probably will run into things you are totally not ready to fight.
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ColinMacLaren: I don't understand. I just followed the main story. I went Olegs Trading Post -> Thorn Fort -> Abandoned House -> Temple of the Elk. I always get ambushed by Techno League on the road between Abandoned House and Temple of The Elk. I don't have Ocativia at that point.

Val and Amiri are is just Melee, Jeathal has Inflict Minor Wounds and Divine Graze for a whopping two casts.
You were literally guided to a crypt by the hand to get another companion and old sycamore is right next to it and there are tracks leading to it. pretty self-evident what the game wants you to do.

I am not the greatest advisor when it comes to the "natural" progression, though. That was 1500h of gameplay ago for me.

Jaethal is... underwhelming, till midgame at the least, and only if you turn her into a cleric. Inquisitor is a class that doesn't translate all too well into an environment where you are expected to win a dozen of encounters before rest. At least she gets a neat SLA to compensate.

Amiri is the worst. Literally. HP tanks suck. Give her some polearm or enlarge her if you must use her for some reason.

Valerie is awesome and you can skin that cat is so many ways... She can be anything so long as it involves being on the front-line and stacking AC.

All of that doesn't matter if you don't play on unfair, though. Just buff a bit and look at your party killing stuff. MC should have like 25-30 AC at level2 and just facetank everything in the earlygame.
Post edited September 02, 2019 by InEffect
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InEffect: All of that doesn't matter if you don't play on unfair, though. Just buff a bit and look at your party killing stuff. MC should have like 25-30 AC at level2 and just facetank everything in the earlygame.
Then I am doing something wrong. I am currently sitting at 20 at level 3.

Base 10
Dex 4
Int 3
Bracers of Armor 1
Tartucios present 1
Dodge 1

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ColinMacLaren: - One is the DEX Sword Saint. He needs a couple of levels to become somewhat competent.
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InEffect: well... don't start as saint even if you are going to end up with it. That being said, dex saint is a bad idea to begin with.
Why? I was loosely following one build you created yourself, only as an Aasimar.
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffect_builds_for_you/post377
Post edited September 03, 2019 by ColinMacLaren
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InEffect: All of that doesn't matter if you don't play on unfair, though. Just buff a bit and look at your party killing stuff. MC should have like 25-30 AC at level2 and just facetank everything in the earlygame.
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ColinMacLaren: Then I am doing something wrong. I am currently sitting at 20 at level 3.

Base 10
Dex 4
Int 3
Bracers of Armor 1
Tartucios present 1
Dodge 1

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InEffect: well... don't start as saint even if you are going to end up with it. That being said, dex saint is a bad idea to begin with.
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ColinMacLaren: Why? I was loosely following one build you created yourself, only as an Aasimar.
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffect_builds_for_you/post377
that had to be done dex and a tiefling. A tradeoff is your MC is utterly useless till you get to 3. That's one thing. And it's not a proper way of doing saint either as you can't stack a lot of AB/Flat damage on dex characters, which is super-important for saint that stacks crit mult as high as it goes. That's literally only thing he's good at. Dex loses like 100 Damage per round at top end and quite a bit of AB, so you would have to waste points on accuracy or denying dex and saint wants to keep them to keep ramping crits. Not a problem for scion, who doesn't really care that much and has quite a few to spare.

https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post115 That's the optimized saint build capable of pushing 500 damage per round give or take.
As to the AC:
Base 10
Dex 4+2 mutagen
Int 3
Mage armor +4
Shield Spell +4
Tartucios present 1
Dodge 1
Fighting defensively +3
+2Nat Armor mutagen
=34AC in your example

If I absolutely had to do dex saint I'd go human with saint at 1 to take slashing grace at 1, then monk at 2 then full on saint, skipping vivisectionist as you don't really need that AC. it Would also help to plug holes in your feats that come from dex.
Post edited September 03, 2019 by InEffect
I always did Ancient Tomb first, then Technic League, then Temple of the Elk, then old Sycamore. I had no issues with this order, and my PC is a generalist wizard, so he's pretty much useless early in the game. I play basically at challenging without encumbrance.
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heliar: I always did Ancient Tomb first, then Technic League, then Temple of the Elk, then old Sycamore. I had no issues with this order, and my PC is a generalist wizard, so he's pretty much useless early in the game. I play basically at challenging without encumbrance.
it is prudent to clear sycamore before doing the tomb as some stuff gets despawned after. Also any full arcane caster is pretty much the meat of the party all game through. Damn grease wins most every encounter even on unfair.
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InEffect: it is prudent to clear sycamore before doing the tomb as some stuff gets despawned after.
Isn't it a trade-off? Would you be able to proceed to a book episode in the tomb?

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InEffect: Also any full arcane caster is pretty much the meat of the party all game through. Damn grease wins most every encounter even on unfair.
For me, it was an issue of spells per day. Grease is awesome, but I could only cast it four times per rest at lower levels. I probably should have been resting more often though.
Post edited September 03, 2019 by heliar
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heliar: Isn't it a trade-off? Would you be able to proceed to a book episode in the tomb?
The tree itself is locked out if you go there before you do the crypt. And there is quite a bit of wildlife that vanishes once mite/kobold conflict starts, so, yeah, it's just extra exp.

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heliar: For me, it was an issue of spells per day. Grease is awesome, but I could only cast it four times per rest at lower levels. I probably should have been resting more often though.
4 times is 4 combats won(well... not really. MC tank will probably hog one or two for mage armor). Thing is you can't win early encounters without it anyways(on unfair that is)... so...
Post edited September 03, 2019 by InEffect