Got it, thanks. The value of SD really depends on the mechanics, so if I want to go that direction, it needs to be a Dex build.

Again, he is giving bad advice. I love playing Strong Shadow dancers. There are lots of ways to boost hide other than dex. And when you come out of stealth with sneak attack and big damage from strength, its a double gut punch to the enemy.

Want to throw out a sample build or describe starting stats and feat progression?

That was more the mentioning of the fact that armor and shields give armor check penlty for hide and move silently(for example fullplate+large shield give you -10 Hide and MS check). Does it means it impossible and unusable? Nope, just a bit suboptimal. I'd say monks/assassins makes better str dancers then rogues/fighters since monks has better unarmored defence. Plus they have free IK as a backup

Sample Build? No problem, since thug (Strength) Rogue/Fighters are my favorite build. Here is one out to Level 29 (unlikely to reach that in HotU).

This one is geared to getting Devastating Critical in your mix. But otherwise focuses on maximum playability from 1st level. It also uses Greatsword which is my favorite weapon, but you can choose your own alternative.

If you wan't to skip Dev Crit you can back off strength (start with 16 str and 16 dex) a bit and have more rogue levels. But keep rogue at 8 or 12 level before Epic, to maximize BAB. Here is build with comments:

Class Race Rogue(10), Fighter(18), Shadowdancer(1), Human


STR: 17 (26)
DEX: 14
CON: 13
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8


Ro 01: Rogue(1): Power Attack, Cleave
F 02: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus: Greatsword
F 03: Fighter(2): Dodge, Knockdown

Comment: Cleave is VERY nice on first level. It gets better when you get a Greatsword at Level 2, Dodge gives AC bonus, and Knockdown arrives Early on Level three, also very helpful in the early game.

This makes for kick ass early levels, instead of wimpy dex version that is all but useless early on.

Ro 04: Rogue(2): STR+1, {Evasion}, (STR=18)
F 05: Fighter(3)
F 06: Fighter(4): Mobility, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Ro 07: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}

Comment: Get your Weapon Specialization, and Mobility (qualify for SD as early as possible). Make sure to Max Hide/Move/Tumble at level 7.

SD 08: Shadowdancer(1): STR+1, {Hide in Plain Sight}, (STR=19)
F 09: Fighter(5): Stealthy

Comment: SD as early as possible. I would stick to heavier armor until here so plate on Levels 2-7, but after SD, you might want to switch to something lighter, but it doesn't have to be leather. Chain shirt is a nice compromise. Stealthy feat boost hide/Move by +2 (the same as having 4 more points of Dex).

Ro 10: Rogue(4)
F 11: Fighter(6): Blind Fight
F 12: Fighter(7): STR+1, Great Cleave, (STR=20)
Ro 13: Rogue(5)
F 14: Fighter(8): Improved Critical: Greatsword
Ro 15: Rogue(6): Iron Will
F 16: Fighter(9): STR+1, (STR=21)
Ro 17: Rogue(7)
F 18: Fighter(10): Toughness, Improved Knockdown
F 19: Fighter(11)
Ro 20: Rogue(8): STR+1, (STR=22)

Comment: Mostly just grabbing good feats and getting ready for Epic. Make sure to Max Rogue stuff of Level 20.

F 21: Fighter(12): Great Strength I, Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword, (STR=23)
F 22: Fighter(13)
Ro 23: Rogue(9)
F 24: Fighter(14): STR+1, Great Strength II, Overwhelming Critical: Greatsword, (STR=25)
F 25: Fighter(15)
F 26: Fighter(16): Devastating Critical: Greatsword

Comment: Getting Dev Crit on this one just for fun. Now when you attack from shadows, you can potentially sneak attack + good strength damage + Dev Crit chance to kill them outright. Rinse and repeat. :)

Ro 27: Rogue(10): Epic Skill Focus: Move Silently, Epic Skill Focus: Hide

Comment: ESF on Hide/Move, you can now stealth in full plate armor like it wasn't there. Not really necessary but it can widen your armor selection.

F 28: Fighter(17): STR+1, (STR=26)
F 29: Fighter(18): Epic Weapon Specialization: Greatsword

Comment: WS is late because we were chasing Dev Crit. You might not even get it.

All right, PeterScott, I'm going to try one of these builds. It does not seem very stealthy wielding a greatsword, but I'll give it a shot.
Thanks for all of your replies, much appreciated. +1

Weapons have no effect on stealth. Greatsword was just an example and my favorite.

Strength based gives you versatility to choose, and as I said before, you can choose any weapon you like, the above character could even be dual wielder Strength build (swap Ambi/TWF for PA/Cleave).You could dual wield shortswords against regular targets, pull out a shield and hammer to fight undead, or a big two handed weapon to cut through damage reduction.

If you go the dex route you are stuck with a small seleciton of finesse based weapons.

Go strength and use any weapon you like, and have more contingency options.

I would still go as Elf with COT instead of Fighter. Keen senses makes things so much nicer to play as a Rogue - effectively doubling your movement speed while in search mode. This build should also swap Stealthy for Blind Fight. I would also suggest Iron Will isn't really going to do much here - with COT you gain much better saves across the board and still get all the feats you need.

So don't use big armor and a shield. Stick with lighter armor that doesn't heavily penalize you. Use a two handed weapon instead of a shield. SD is there for Hide In Plain Sight, which is very nearly a Get Out of Trouble Free card; that ability alone is worth the level spent to get it (imo, at least).

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I'll echo switching from Human to Elf if you are primarily a Rogue. The extra move speed while searching and hiding is a big quality-of-life bonus for you, the player.

Elf: I have played Elven rogues and never found keen senses as beneficial as it sounds on paper. If you try running full speed, you still end up walking into traps, so you have to slow down anyway. And you lose a feat, which early feat do you sacrifice?

COT: You lose 6 damage from EWS by going for COT. It's one of the main reasons people go for a fighter. That damage is equivalent to what you get from 12 extra points of strength. That's a big loss. I like COT as boost to fighter, not as a replacement for it.

You are also limited to being a pure rogue until Level 9 at minimum, which means no early game durability increase from better armor, weapons, hit points, right when you need it most.

It's an alternative, just not one I would choose.

Then you still end up with lower AC then dex rogue. In cases where for some reason cant sneak - for example enemy has true seeing - your situation become worse then of similar dex character.And you still has lower ms and hide compared to dex rogue. Yes, you can get hide and ms bonuses to complement it - but for example in Sotu it would be choise between cape with +10 hide and cloak of Ao/red wizard cloak.So yeah armor penalty is still something to consider while doing str sneaker.

Never had the issues you describe as an Elf - perhaps you are not putting enough points into search. It's a massive gameplay issue to be in stealth AND searching as a human - you end up at a snails pace.

6 damage means nothing with all those sneak dice. The build I linked earlier has 19-114 (19d6) sneak dice. It also has a decent strength score. COT also gives you bonuses to all saves - while you are wasting a feat on Iron Will to gain practically nothing.

I will concede the point about earlier level play though - you can only get COT at 11 in the build I linked. Still, it doesn't mean it's difficult to play before that at all.

Each to their own.

The build at the top of the page is not without DEX. He has 16 dex. I previously suggested a chain shirt which is 4 armor with 4 dex bonus. AC will essentially be identical to a Dex build in leather.

Armor penalty for a chain shirt is only -2, and the build includes stealthy feat giving +2 due to have a lot of extra feat from being a fighter. So zero overall armor penalty. The same a Dex build in leather.

So your arguments are moot.

Will a pure dex build be better at sneaking. On paper yes, but in practice it's irrelevant as they will both exceed the threshold for most enemies in all the NWN campaigns.

The big difference is in damage vs the sneak immune like undead, which fill the NWN campaigns.

Your dex sneaker will borderline helpless against undead with their combination of damage resistance and immunity to sneak attacks.

Then why sneak at all? You seems to miss my new position - what am I saying that str character has BETTER choises then sneaking around. Once again its not that you can't do str shadowdancer but that high str fighter/rogue hybrid can take more forward root and not waste time with sneaking. Dropping SD for, for example, Cot will give you better saves, let you get higher str and con. WM (which you can easy get here since you already has few prerequests) will give superior focus and Ki critical.

So no, argument is not moot and it is not about "go dex sneaker". It's about why building str sneaker when you can build simple melee character who would fight as good and in some places even better?