I was thinking about units recently, and it occurred to me that a player controlled Great Wyrm might be almost impossible for a single unit to oust from a space the wyrm is defending without a Wizard helping out (either before combat or in combat). Naturally, this is just a thought experiment; any Wizard can eventually collect the resources to kill a single great wyrm that is defending a square on the overland map. And before you ask, no, I can't come up with any reason you would place a single great wyrm on defense somewhere, or why you would attack such a wyrm without either a stack of units, some powerful magic, or both. Onward!

The conditions for this experiment:
-A single unit is attacking.
-There is no wizard helping either attacker or defender (so no unit enchantments, no combat spells unless the attacker can cast them, and no artifacts if the attacker is a hero).
-The attacker and the wyrm will each fight as intelligently as if an experienced human were controlling it. So yes, the wyrm will use hit and run attacks, charge and attack as often as possible, or cower in corners while waiting for the 50 round limit to run out, which ever will work best.
-Units will be max level (elite for normals, demi-god for heroes), since they can (eventually) achieve this on their own.
-There are some possible variations that bend the "No wizard help" rule while still being units, like champion units, chaos/black channels, and special weapon materials (namely adamantium). Analyzing these will be left as an exercise for the reader. Wings from Chaos Channels is the biggest outcome changer here, since all of a sudden ranged units can use all of their ammo without retaliation. To be fair, the wyrm should get wings too...

The wyrm's advantages: Great attack power, good armor, a pile of hit points, movement speed matched only by unicorns, goes first in combat (defender), and as the defender it "wins" if the battle goes to 50 rounds (attacker is expelled from battle, map square remains under control of the wyrm).

Wyrm's disadvantages: Can't initiate an attack on flyers, no ranged attack. Also, the 15 point poison looks good on paper, but anything that doesn't just fall over to the wyrm's melee attack will have at least 10 resistance, so the poison doesn't actually do anything.

Analysis: The wyrm's attack, defense, hp, and speed mean that it can eat or dodge nearly all units. To win the battle, the attacker has to be strong enough to survive the wyrm's attack (or fly), and the attacker must either be able to keep up with the wyrm or have a ranged attack (preferably magic, to avoid the long distance penalty). Only the teleporting unicorn can possibly keep up with the merging great wyrm; sadly, the only thing the unicorn gets for its trouble is eaten.

Melee pretty much happens on the wyrm's terms, which means that thrown weapons, fire breath, lightning breath, and first strike are of no use to the attacker (wyrm can hit and run to always be the one to initiate combat, excepting the luckless unicorns). As I recall, gaze attacks and touch attacks will still be helpful when not initiating.

Ranged attackers have to be able to survive two rounds of melee with the wyrm before they get even one chance to shoot, unless they fly.

You know just how fast a wyrm is if you've ever attacked one. The next fastest unit (excepting those tasty unicorns) would be an Air Elemental, and it doesn't even come close in speed. Air Elementals: 5 spaces in a turn. Wyrms: 2 squishy corpses in a turn. Remember, heroes don't have movement bonuses from artifacts in this scenario, so most of them will walk 2 spaces.

Now for some specifics:
-All normal, generic units can't survive to even get a turn. Settlers, Engineers, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Halberdiers, Cavalry, Bowmen, Shamen, Priests, Magicians, and Catapults just die. Racial bonuses, like extra swords or shields don't make a difference when the base stats are this low. The only numbers I'd even stop to check would be High Men pikemen (extra figures, and pikes have a decent attack for a normal unit), but I'm pretty sure these guys just melt before the wyrm too.
-If we include boats (say the wyrm is water walking), then the Trireme and Galley both die. A quick glance says the Warship might have a chance though; it has a lot of hp and it has long range, so the wyrm has to come engage and the warship gets a free attack on its turn. However, on closer inspection, the wyrm has as many shields as the warship has attack strength, while the wyrm's average damage output is higher than the warship's total shield count. Wyrm eats warship over the course of a few attacks, taking some damage in the process.
-Race specific units that are just food: berserkers, wolf riders, slingers, longbowmen, javelineers, horsebownmen, rangers, centaurs, nightblades, steam cannon. None of these will survive to get a turn with enough figures left to matter.
-The wyrm can dodge any of the rest of the racial units that don't shoot, even if the unit would stand a chance in melee (while I don't think any of them do, I'm not going to check since they can't win regardless). So that leaves nightmares, pegasi, and air ships. Elite air ships have 12 attack, 10 shots, but only (40% - range) chance to hit. Elite Pegasi have 5 ranged attack for each of two figures (60% - range to hit). Nightmares have 7 attack power from each of two figures with no range penalty, but only 4 shots and 40% hit chance. None of these 3 units really have a chance against the wyrm's 12 shields and 30 hp.

So, on to fantastic creatures!
-Life: Unicorns are crunchy, and the rest can't keep up. There isn't anything the casters can use to deal with the wyrm's merging. Torin will be covered with the other heroes.
-Nature: The attacking great wyrm has a not quite 50% chance of winning (since the defender effectively wins simultaneous kills); this is all luck on which one actually wins. The colossus only has two shots to finish the wyrm off, which is unlikely, though possible. The stone giant and sprites have neither enough shots nor enough attack power, and none of the rest can keep up. A few (ex. behemoth) might have the power to win in melee, but they aren't fast enough to force the wyrm into melee.
-Sorcery: The sky drake can't keep up, otherwise it might be a contender since the wyrm can't initiate. The djinn doesn't have enough ranged attack strength or spell points to make a difference. The storm giant can't survive melee. The others either can't survive or they can't keep up (or both, in most cases).
-Chaos: The Efreet has the same problem as the Djinn, the Fire Giant has the same problem as the Stone Giant, and the rest can't keep up (even the Doom Bat). The Hydra might have a chance if it ever got to fight (90 hp!) but it is just too slow. Same with the great drake.
-Death: Everything except for Shadow Demons and the Demon Lord are slow (non-ranged), though Death Knights might have a chance in melee if they roll well (there is no need to give them the chance to roll, though). Shadow Demons, even with +20% to hit, only have 4 strength per figure, so they don't have the punch to break the wyrm's defense. The Demon Lord, on the other hand, has 10 strength at 60% to hit, while the wyrm has 12 defense with 30% block. So with a bit of luck on the rolls, the Demon Lord might actually be able to take out the wyrm with its 8 shots.

Now for heroes:
-Most heroes are just food without some buffs (or some kind of flight).
-Any hero without a ranged attack or spells can't kill the wyrm because they can't catch it. Even the powerful heroes like Shalla, Roland, and Mortu aren't able to catch the wyrm to try and kill it (I don't think they could survive the wyrm's hit and run anyway, but the wyrm doesn't have to kill the hero to win). Torin falls into this category since he doesn't have any direct damage spells. Fang, while able to survive thanks to his wings, also can't keep up with the wyrm.
-Nearly all of the heroes that can do damage at range just don't have the shields + hp to survive the wyrm coming to them. Two attacks of 25 strength, 60% hit will burn through a lot of hp.
-The interesting heroes: Mystic X (magic ranged, 5 random abilities), Warrax (constitution innate, possibly good abilities, AP magic ranged). I think that depending on their picks, either of these heroes could kill the wyrm. They would need blademaster to reliably push damage past the wyrm's armor, and possibly either agility or constitution (which would become super con for Warrax) to survive. Mystic X then likely needs arcane power (to force the wyrm to attack him) and probably might (to win when the wyrm attacks).


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Final answer: The Demon Lord needs to be lucky with rolls, while Warrax and Mystic X (assuming they have good abilities) can probably manage the feat more reliably. Everything else is either too weak or too slow. Please let me know if you think of something I may have missed.

On the flip side, the Great Wyrm, as the attacker, is totally unable to take a map square away from any unit with wings. Even the lowly sprites are invincible on defense. Some of the stronger melee units and heroes might be able to hold the space as well.

Thanks for joining me in this thought experiment!

I would say another Great Wyrm is the only possibility, given the parameters.

Which spells can heroes have in their books if you want to disinclude any that they inherit from their owner? The wyrm could end up banished, controlled, confused, or possibly CCed, any of which would (or could) end the battle in the attacker's favor.

I was thinking the only spells the hero can use are spells that the hero comes with (or is supposed to come with, for those with glitched spell books). For example, Malleus comes with Flame Strike, so he could use that (if the wyrm didn't just flat out kill him before he got a turn).

Even if you let the heroes cast any spell they have mana for, I don't think it will make much difference. Most of them just die before getting a turn. Maybe Torin could survive a turn to do something with direct damage spells or Crack's Call.

The wyrm has resistance 12, so a number of curses will just slide off it, and I'm pretty sure the outcome of this battle will be decided before the attacker gets a second turn (regardless of whether that outcome requires 50 turns to achieve).

For the Demon Lord, I think you can not ignore the little extra damage the summoned demons may do. The Wyrm can outrun them, but depending on position, they can be summoned right next to it. If the Wyrm tries to stay on the upper map side to prevent this, the Demon Lord and one or two Demons can head up, and possibly drive the Wyrm down far enough to suffer one attack, at least.

I'm not certain of this though, I haven't tried to compare the size of the grid to the threat range of these multiple fliers.

But even then it would take luck to do damage, I suppose.

I think you dismissed the Djinn to quickly. The Djinn is able to use ANY Sorcery spell it has the mana to cast. In this case it has just enough, 20, to cast BANISH.

Banish gives the target Fantastice (aka Summoned) Unit -3 Resistance, therefore has a 10% chance of wiping out a Great Wyrm.

http://masterofmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Djinn
http://masterofmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Banish

Since it can fly the Great Wyrm cannot initiate any attacks to kill the Djinn. Therefore this battle can be repeated each turn at no risk to the Djinn until it succeeds.

Interesting theory, but I've never once seen a Djinn cast banish in actual play. Have you?

Of course not but there are a couple very good reasons why. First off Banish only works on "Fantastic Creatures". 2nd the computer is quite often stupid. This is supposed to be Human Vs Human though with both players being rational. And 3rd any unit with 13 Resistance would be immune to a Banish cast without extra mana added on top which the Djinn cannot do.

Taken from the MoM wikia below "A Fantastic Unit (sometimes referred to as "Fantastic Creature(s)") is a unit that has been summoned, created, or transformed by magic. "

http://masterofmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Fantastic_Unit

This would also include any unit that has been Black/Chaos Channeled but not normal units without such modifications.

Now normally the Djinn would be able to do an 8 damage Ranged attack with a 60% chance to hit, which equals on avg 4-5 (4.8) damage * 6 shots. This would normally be of more use in most battles especially vs multi-figure units to weaken them before engaging in melee. However vs a Great Wyrm that has 45hp and 12 Defense. blocking 3.6 damage on avg, this would hardly be effective as the GW would take maybe 8 damage in total.

Also if the Djinn were to fight the Great Wyrm in a Nature Node,90% of where you usually find them, it would have 2 more resistance and thus be immune.

I don't think bookwyrm stipulated a nature node, or any kind of node. It would be just as valid to figure what would happen if the battle took place on a sorcery node. Of course you have to assume all the mechanics work the way they're supposed to work.

Still, it seems like a long shot. Banish never seems to work all that well for me in the game. It's worth a try though.

Demons: I had considered the demon summons, but I figured the wyrm would just slide past them (or shrug off their attacks). Like you, I'm not sure whether the demon lord and two demons can corral the wyrm enough to be able to drop the 3rd demon on top of it. I suspect not (the battle field is quite wide, as well as being long), but I don't know the exact dimensions, and I don't know the precise restrictions on summoning (it has always seemed like the summon range extended a little as my units started moving further down the field).

Djinn: Based on the info you've provided, you're right in saying I dismissed the Djinn a bit too quickly. I don't play sorcery as much, so I don't know the mid/high level spell list as well. While a Djinn has a very slim chance of pushing the wyrm out in any given battle, it will eventually win. The 50 turn limit causes the attacker to retreat without any chance of losing a unit, right? If we go to multiple battles then any flying, ranged unit that can do a few points of damage in a battle would then be able to win eventually. Draconian bowmen still wouldn't be strong enough, but the Demon Lord should be able to do it over the course of multiple battles. Nightmares, Pegasi, and Airships might also have a chance eventually.

Battle location: I was assuming a generic map square, with no spell effects or node effects. Being in the influence of a nature node would favor the wyrm, perhaps making it impossible for anything but a wyrm to win. I don't think either a chaos or a sorcery node provides enough of a buff to affected units to make up the difference, though. But I haven't looked over the possibilities.

Great wyrms are actually easy to defeat. All you need to do is play elfs, and be a warlord so your armies get to the one gold ring level at 120 exp (I have not played this in a while, so terminology is not my forte). Why elves? pegasis air patrols (they are archers). The worm can't do a damn thing against flying attackers. If the worm has some spiders with him, the task is much more difficult, but...

How to do it. Bring in 9 gold ring pegasis units. In battle, hold off attack until the pegasis are up next to the wyrm, and I mean right next to. The wyrm is the center of the square and the pegasis are completly surrounding him, only the ninth unit being further than next to the worm. That unit is hanging around the outside of the cube. When all are in position, turn it to auto-attack. They should have the wyrm dead in... 3 complet rounds... maybe into the 4th.

You can also do it with the nightmares from the other world. You can also, if you have flight skill, do it with a group of elven longbowmen if you give all of them the ability to fly. If the wyrm has a group of spiders with him, and you have web, just keep him webbed while the armies deals with the spiders, then have them go to him and kill him, using the web to make his attack meaningless (but you better have a lot of webs)

Oops.. Didn't read the whole note. I assumed you wanted non-hero group. But hey... I just started reading this stuff.

Non-hero is fine. The problem is that the pegasi will never get into close range. Remember that one of the primary conditions in this scenario is that the wyrm can and will move, so the pegasi will always be at max range. Also, the battle is 1v1. Also, no unit enchantments. In essence, can any single creature push an intelligent Great Wyrm off a square by itself. Very few things can.

The wyrm moves? have they modified the game? I haven't played the game in a long time. Maybe there are changes in here, but when I sent a group of pegasi after a wyrm, he did nothing. But then, what could he do?

Go back and read the OP section "The conditions for this experiment:".

Also, to head off another question, here's my disclaimer again: "And before you ask, no, I can't come up with any reason you would place a single great wyrm on defense somewhere, or why you would attack such a wyrm without either a stack of units, some powerful magic, or both."

This was simply a thought experiment I ran one day.

Hey... I just think in terms of the game. I can think outside the box. Just not used to it with MoM because I guess I haven't run into many MoMers before now.