I am referring to the cute comments flub kept making like borrowing nail polish, calling you "keeno", changing his profile pic to a cheerleader at the start, throwing parties, etc.. to build up the persona of a cheerleader with you playing along. And then the hey want to reveal, yeah let's do it ok look everyone we are cheerleaders sweet and innocent. The reveal also happened at a time when flub was once again pushing his vote on everyone for Robbeasey and being questioned about it, pretty convenient time to reveal (and then guess who the NK was).

I am not talking about any one post, but my actions of pushing who I thought the scum were so they would try and NK me to keep me quiet. I really thought when I kept pushing adaliabooks and pointing out his mistakes and lies about me he would take a shot at me for the NK as I found his hint for a role that would get him killed as a veiled attempt at hiding that he was scum and we should let him live as he had an important role. I even thought HijacK was scum the way he was acting to begin with so I pushed him, he just got himself lynched.

Any NK that the scum don't get is a boon for the town, why does it need to be a late game one? I had no plans for this to be a late game, I wanted to find the scum as soon as possible and win this and the more town left alive the easier it is to win. Maybe you wanted this to be a late game as that would be what scum would need to win.

I have played with you before. I know you are intelligent enough to know that none of these require out-of-thread coordination.

So basically what you're saying is that pushing and prodding people you think are scum and possibly voting against them is a method to get yourself night killed. If that is the criterion, I guess we're all trying to get ourselves night killed. Needless to say, you spent all of game #22 trying to get yourself night-killed using this method to no avail. You should know by now that that is not the way.

If I may suggest a simpler method. Hint that you have an important power role, but do not reveal it. It's a much better way.

BTW, note that you make a connection between flubb voting for Robbeasy and him dying that night, but fail to make the same connection between yourself and adaliabooks.

Fair enough. That's a valid point. It's similar to dedoporno's logic of vigilanting early. I understand.

I did not.

I was pointing out how he was pushing everyone to vote Robbeasy, I was not pushing everyone to vote adailiabooks but pointing out his multiple lies about me and presenting why I thought he was scum. It's the same thing I have done with you and flub, point out why I think y'all are scum. If you want I can create a post with all caps telling everyone to vote for y'all multiple times if you think it would help your correlation between me and flub fit better.

And yes, I did try in game #22 to do the same thing, present arguments to find the scum. You let me live in that one too it seems. I guess you like having me around to point a finger at or something. The fact that my role this game gives me the ability to push and be safe for one night is a bonus that I would gladly have every game, especially when it allows a townie to survive the night and help to find the scum.

Your analysis proves to be a great source for ideas for me to explore. Thank you, trentonlf.

Concerning adaliabooks. I just spent some time skimming through his posts of day #2 (boy, did he write a lot) to try and find a clue he might have dropped as to whom he watched on night #1. I couldn't find any. If someone would like to do the same (dedo?). It might be useful information even if it did not reveal anything to him.

Come on, adaliabooks, couldn't you have written some innocent remark like "I just finished watching a documentary about Simon & Garfunkel" or "about New Jersey" or "about James Joyce" or "about Linda Lovelace". In hindsight we would have understood it. Or perhaps you were too clever for me...

There was, however, one sentence I did not understand. Shortly before nightfall (post #587) adaliabooks wrote "I have a power role. There's no point on telling you what it is unless I managed to stop the lynch." (i.e. CSPVG's). The part I don't understand is "unless I managed to stop the lynch". What's it got to do with it?

As for why Sage was not killed, I have a theory. Remember that there was a brief talk during day #2 about how Sage was the obvious target (dedo asking what if she didn't die, me and adalia suggesting not to talk about it). Well, thinking of it now, the scum could not have taken the chance of killing any obvious target while there was the possibility that there was a watcher about. I wouldn't be at all surprised if adaliabooks watched Sage on night #2. If the scum beat her up, he would have known.

@mrkgnao, well done!

Your posts and logic in the past few posts are sharp and dead on. You were quite right about the post in the QT I mentioned. I have little to offer since this all seems so obvious.

We have four town:
dedoporno
Sage
mrk
myself

We have three scum:
budejovice
treton
Rware

If you look at when during the game everyone claimed, the last three were scum. If you look closely at the claims, Rwarehall is the only one with even a modicum of potential. I do however still contend he is a roleblocker and not a jailer.

All the town claimed and then the last three were scum. I've seen it too many times to count.

I will only vote for one of the scum listed.

Nice! So much reading material. And some interesting thoughts to ponder on. Now that I heard from the people I wanted I will share my own comments on what was said and some more.


I said once that I don't intend to try and make this a one man game, since it's extremely risky (also, I don't like the idea of a single person calling the shots altogether, considering this is a team game). With that said, I assure you that there will be a lot more jumping and finger pointing before we are done. Not because someone's views differ from mine, this is only natural, but because I trust only my own and all of my reasoning is based on them. There are no concrete evidence on anyone, so I will push each and everyone here to the limits as long as this provides some result (hopefully, a positive one, we really need to catch our breath now).




I was referring to myself. HijacK never claimed Hippie or anything for that matter (I'm not even sure he claimed town, just some sort of a power/special role that brought the knowledge for another one with it). He basically told us he will play his own game and that got him lynched.




I, also, find the way of trying to get yourself hit during the night a bit too ineffective. What you managed to actually get closer to was getting hit during the day. A bit too close, considering you are/were at the upper lines of most scum lists. This makes me wonder which hit were you actually trying to attract. Prevented NK at the beginning is OK for the town. Not that big a deal, but still profitable. Prevented lynch in the madness we currently have (and this has been building up since the Lovers happened) is pure gold. Also, flavor-wise, I may be mistaken here, since this is an idiom, but isn't the "Teacher's pet" a bot on the negative side? Like, being some sort of a suck-up that will not get in trouble no matter what because they have the teacher on their side? Like, survive a lynching, maybe? Not sure...




Now this is something I don't like. Since I started to look at the flavor and generic roles separately I became a bit worried of the Cheerleaders. So far I was taking their claim for granted because it made almost perfect sense and was too out there for no one to contest one role or the other. Then I started to read around, looked through the suggested mafiawiki and my own card game to get a better understanding of the meta game we might have. What concerns me is the different play style the mrkgnao and flubb have. And I mean different even in views and approach, which seems too weird. They are almonst doing good cop, bad cop with mrkgnao seeming more reasonable and open, and flubb - more pushy and definitive. Mrkgnao said that in the last game Krypsyn and she (sorry, I never got to understand your actual gender, but I'm currently under the impression you are female :) ) played their own game during the day and not teaming up, which makes perfect sense. It's seems a bit weird for me that you won't try to play more as a team now, when you are claiming to be two of the good guys and this is public information now.

The wiki states that the more advanced version of the masons may have mixed alignments, making both players know that the other is mason, but not being 100% sure they are town. This would be the perfect cover. 2 claimed townsmen. One is real, the other isn't. The real one believe both are real and will try everything to protect their buddy because they are sure. The rest of use are too afraid to experiment and potentially hit another ally. Even if we did there is 50% chance we hit the actual townie which will immediately result in a false positive for the infiltrated scum. He will be untouchable until the very end. The game is too role-crazy to ignore such notion at this point.

So I have a question to both flub and mrkgnao. How sure are you that the other one is town? Look at your PM and tell us exactly how definitive is the way this is stated there.




I'm inclined to trust RWarehall at the moment, at least a bit more than some others, since I find his claim plausible and sensible. I would have done the same if I knew that my protection will block useful powers. No point in keeping someone's power around if they won't be able to put it to good (if any) use.

budejovice actually concerns me to some extent. We know for a fact that we already had a Town Cop. Why have another role sniffer around? Wouldn't this be too much? So many real power roles would be justified only if the scum were equally strong in some way. The entire role isn't that powerful to begin with, so why keeping it secret so long? I'm fairly convinced most, if not all flavor roles are real. Also, flavor-wise what does Wide-receiver has to do with such type of info gathering? I'm not familiar with american football. The only thing that keeps me from being sure is that if this role is real it will bring more for the town rather than the scum. For scum players such flavor details are next to useless. I get straight A-s? This means I'm the vigilante!! It doesn't make too much sense, right?




Flub, how are so sure of Sage? Only because she was one the first 4 early claimers? And the Final 3 (this would have sounded a lot cooler if they were 5, but still :) )? They are on your scum list only because they claimed last? Do you say you will vote only against them, even if mrkgnao, I and let's say budejovice agree to vote Sage out? Are you going to withhold from voting if this happens (casting a useless single vote counts as withholding at this point)?



P.S. I'm pretty active and mostly "around" because I work on a computer daily and have reasonable amount of time to read and post every now and then.

The late claim is what bothers me the most. Seriously, what I'm finding most scummy about Flub, before I even joined is the push for everyone to reveal. Revealing power roles early is an anti-town play, period. Scum have all the information except which town has the really important roles. One of the few things town has going for it is this blind spot from the scum.

The gist of Flub's scum argument for me is that first I didn't immediately make a claim, 5 seconds upon entering the game and now that I held off on making a claim with my power role until the last possible minute.

Just think about it for a moment, both my play and Quad's. You have a power role like mine where you can protect someone from death (granted in this case, the drawback is blocking their role, likely used for game balancing purposes). How would you play it?

Quad chose to mostly lurk and stay out of arguments. Most would argue this is a proper play right? Don't attract attention, stay in the game, help town.

I come in at crunch time. Before I make a big reveal, I sit back a bit and think about it. Adalia just died from a pseudo-reveal. I wanted to make damn sure I was not making a mistake by revealing. I'm still not entirely sure revealing was the proper play even now. But we are at crunchtime, so maybe it was necessary.

Flub, your push for everyone to reveal has, in great part, seriously hurt town. Part of me really has to wonder if that is intentional. I can't be the only one to see what a bad plan that turned out to be, and for whatever reason you seem to be doubling-down on it. So, by playing smart, doing the best I can for town, I'm called scummy? Now the cards are on the table and scum knows exactly what they all are. Frankly, if anything is scummy here, it's how that came to pass...I'm beginning to think I joined this game at a very bad point.

I believe I requested the final claims, but I'm not sure if you are referring to something else. Be sure that if you didn't reveal we wouldn't have been talking right now. I was considering you for the lesser evil in terms of lynching before you claimed and I'm sure we would have gotten 4 votes on you sooner rather than later. With 3 scum this would have been game over on the spot.

We don't have anymore time for hiding. What has to happen now is we need to plan this out knowing what we think we know and consider all the possible angles here before making the final decision.

So being aggressive in active pursuit of who I think is scum means I am trying to get myself lynched? Would it be better that I sit back and not pursue who I think is scum? The whole point of me being town is to actively find the scum and lynch them, how else am I to do this without pushing?

This whole scum list idea originated with mrkgnao and flub. And as I pointed out all it did when it was started was make everyone point fingers at everyone else except them. And now flub wants to add that the people who role claimed last are scum because he's seen it so many times. I did not realize we were playing a game of "Let's reveal roles so the scum know who to target and the first to reveal are town"

Not necessarily, but when you are pushing against the people that are currently trusted more than others people will most likely start to become suspicious. We all know how things went with HijacK - not the same situation, but similar.

Also, I highlr doubt that trying to pursue on your own, without convincing arguments to back your accusations will produce so good results. The scum (if you are not one of them, of course) will not need to target you. They'll just need to wait it out - the town, being nothing more than an angry, paranoid and frustrated mob, will do it for them.

I guess I just don't get it then. Instead of trying to find the scum I should just go with what everyone else is saying so I don't look guilty? I have presented what I believe to be valid arguments, not much else I can do.

More to the point, it has just appeared to me that this game, because of the early Mason claim and your own reveal, that others felt pressured to reveal themselves and reveal they did to our detriment. Sage as Doctor, Adalia as Watcher (claimed as an important power role). And even the early Mason claims if believed, helped the enemy narrow down their choices. Take three non-power role reveals, now add 2-3 scum from the 10 remaining. If the scum aren't the same as the non-power roles, that could leave as few as 4 players. No wonder the scum got "lucky" and hit a cop and then a watcher. It was hard for them to miss given what was left. Like shooting a shotgun into a fishbowl.

In terms of what I'm objecting to is not this final push to claim. It pretty much had to be at this point, it's more the "if you don't do what I say, you are scummy" lines.

For example, Flub in post 586 set up the claim that if CSPVG was scum, Trentonlf is clearly scum because a scum would hammer him for scum points.

It's funny now that we know CSPVG was town, how Flub is still trying to convince people Trentonlf is scum. He really hasn't given a real reason for it, we are just to believe him because he claims Mason.

Then he claims because I delayed giving a response I was clearly scum. It really didn't matter what I did, it's not that I delayed commentary, its all Flub painting the people he wants to paint as scum regardless of logic or reason. He just makes something up.

So far, he's been the one driving the wagon. Yet, now we need to trust him again "to prevent a perfect scum game". I just can't get it out of my head there is something off here.

I'm actually starting to like the theory that its the cheerleaders and football player as the baddies. Budejovice has a weak sounding claim. Seriously, how does a flavor cop even help except to hint at town roles?

My guess is we can get a fair consensus at least on voting him out and proceed from there.

My PM states I may converse with the other cheerleader at night, whom you know is also town.

Regarding Sage and her towniness of course I'm not sure anymore than I'm sure you're town. But as I stated in my post, logically with regard to mafia games her play has been less scummy than the list of three.

And if you all decide to vote against Sage you'll not need my vote. You'll have the scum voting her, I'll bet a dollar on that.

That's at least partly (probably mostly) my fault. I don't really know how to play co-op. I'm too much of an individualist.
In the cheerleader/mason thread, we talk about things (well, flubb does more of it than I, I'm afraid) but we don't forge specific detailed strategies. We raise ideas, but leave it at that. It's not unlike this thread really.

I believe we play differently because we are very different individuals (confession: I very rarely touch alcohol and have never been drunk in my life). I'm good with that. I don't want anyone to tell me how to play.

Simply put, we both know we are on the same team, but it's not as if we are joined at the hip. Well, most of the time we're not joined at the hip. You know, sometimes it gets lonely for two cute girls with no man around. There's only so much time a cheerleader can spend at the mall (p.s. The Mall is Krypsyn's name for the cheerleader/mason thread. I like his wit, don't you?).

This possibility has crossed my mind, I must confess. I reread my PM many times since the game began.

But that would require Krypsyn to be a bastard mod and lie outright in the PM. And that just does not strike me as Krypsyn.

My PM is very definitive: "whom you know is also Town".