Posted April 22, 2018
greeklover
Adventurer
Registered: Apr 2017
From Greece
Lifthrasil
Bring the GOG-Downloader back!
Registered: Apr 2011
From Germany
Posted April 22, 2018
The latter is a reference to the movie and book "The Princess Bride" and refers to thinking back and forth "Scum would do that. But Scum is trying to appear towny, so he would never do that. But since it is obvious that scum would never do that, scum might try to do it claiming that scum would never do it... and so on.
List of Mafia-Abbreviations here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted April 22, 2018
Let's ask the table? You and me are looking kinda biased...
dedoporno: Really? Such things always puzzle me since I know how lazy I am to do basic things let alone go to a site, type stuff in to generate a result I can just throw together considering I know next to nothing anyway.
...
Oh, wait. You also don't like wasting time. Heh :)
I don't see much value in discussing hypotheticals which are already way past... it's not like I have not been active today otherwise. If you guys have time, I'll pass you the link to the Resistance game where I pretty much used same meta. You will see I did vote Yes there, just like I will vote Yes here... it's a matter of timing and context.
Main differences are - Resistance there are 5 policies max, first to 3 wins. There are 5 attempts at a government for each policy before chaos which is automatically fascist. The government size changes (usually increasing) depending on the total player count. No random element to the policy result, each government member votes in secret for Liberal or Fascist result and one single Fascist is enough. No term limit. No fascist powers.
My feeling now is that Resistance is less random but a lot of the same dynamics are applicable.
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/forum_resistance_1_the_might_of_metal
9 pages total, including post game stuff. In my settings we are currently at 13 in this game.
Unfortunately I'm at the center of controversy right now so I can't be coy or subtle. My read of the situation is that I prefer dedo/scene to RW/scene. I stated my votes intention openly already and I have said I am willing to bluff, which IMO allows votecounting to be uncertain. I'm not sure what the best approach is for the rest, but the open discussion seems to me to have worked well.
Mate, the presidential order is the order our names appear in Zeo's opening posts.
Your post's formatting is really awkward though...
greeklover: Guys, when you use acronyms from other games can you explain them? I have no idea what AtE or WIFOM means. Appeal to Emotion - I assume no explanation required
Wine In Front of Me ... this is from the Princess Bride movie. It means situations where you're thinking: He knows X so will do A. But he knows that I know that so he will do B. But he knows I know that he knows that I know...
...
Oh, wait. You also don't like wasting time.
I don't see much value in discussing hypotheticals which are already way past... it's not like I have not been active today otherwise. If you guys have time, I'll pass you the link to the Resistance game where I pretty much used same meta. You will see I did vote Yes there, just like I will vote Yes here... it's a matter of timing and context.
Main differences are - Resistance there are 5 policies max, first to 3 wins. There are 5 attempts at a government for each policy before chaos which is automatically fascist. The government size changes (usually increasing) depending on the total player count. No random element to the policy result, each government member votes in secret for Liberal or Fascist result and one single Fascist is enough. No term limit. No fascist powers.
My feeling now is that Resistance is less random but a lot of the same dynamics are applicable.
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/forum_resistance_1_the_might_of_metal
9 pages total, including post game stuff. In my settings we are currently at 13 in this game.
Unfortunately I'm at the center of controversy right now so I can't be coy or subtle. My read of the situation is that I prefer dedo/scene to RW/scene. I stated my votes intention openly already and I have said I am willing to bluff, which IMO allows votecounting to be uncertain. I'm not sure what the best approach is for the rest, but the open discussion seems to me to have worked well.
Mate, the presidential order is the order our names appear in Zeo's opening posts.
Your post's formatting is really awkward though...
Wine In Front of Me ... this is from the Princess Bride movie. It means situations where you're thinking: He knows X so will do A. But he knows that I know that so he will do B. But he knows I know that he knows that I know...
adaliabooks
"Vell, Zaphod's just zis guy, you know?"
Registered: Jun 2013
From United Kingdom
Posted April 22, 2018
I find Lift and RWarehall to be reasonably townie. I'm on the fence on ZFR, it could be either I really can't tell. But altogether their arguments make sense and I'm less inclined to accept Brasas as president now.
His chosen method of playing the game doesn't make sense as a mass strategy (as RWarehall pointed out if we all did it then we'd just end up auto electing the third candidate instead of the first, and everyone would have to vote yes to that government as voting no and allowing a random policy is very non liberal so we learn nothing more) which means it makes sense on a personal level, to hide his reasons for voting. Maybe he wanted the governments to cycle around quickly so that he and his buddies would get in.
Though that begs the question who is buddies would be. I know it's not me, and it doesn't look like ZFR, dedo or RWarehall are either... which means blotunga would be the most likely choice if that were the case (and I can see it being so). So imagine his frustration if two of the fascists were right at the bottom of the presidential list and the liberals weren't playing ball by rejecting governments...
So my preference for governments is either dedo and me or RWarehall and me. I think there is a little more analysis required to this theory, there is a third fascist in there and I'm not sure if that lines up or not, but I haven't got time at the moment.
Going to be travelling a lot tomorrow so won't have much time other than a quick check in in the evening. And won't have too much time again until Thursday / Friday, but I'll do my best to keep up to date.
His chosen method of playing the game doesn't make sense as a mass strategy (as RWarehall pointed out if we all did it then we'd just end up auto electing the third candidate instead of the first, and everyone would have to vote yes to that government as voting no and allowing a random policy is very non liberal so we learn nothing more) which means it makes sense on a personal level, to hide his reasons for voting. Maybe he wanted the governments to cycle around quickly so that he and his buddies would get in.
Though that begs the question who is buddies would be. I know it's not me, and it doesn't look like ZFR, dedo or RWarehall are either... which means blotunga would be the most likely choice if that were the case (and I can see it being so). So imagine his frustration if two of the fascists were right at the bottom of the presidential list and the liberals weren't playing ball by rejecting governments...
So my preference for governments is either dedo and me or RWarehall and me. I think there is a little more analysis required to this theory, there is a third fascist in there and I'm not sure if that lines up or not, but I haven't got time at the moment.
Going to be travelling a lot tomorrow so won't have much time other than a quick check in in the evening. And won't have too much time again until Thursday / Friday, but I'll do my best to keep up to date.
RWarehall
Ja'loja!
Registered: Jan 2012
From United States
Posted April 22, 2018
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TRMQwMNnY
It demonstrates the point that anything that is a bluff might also be a double-bluff
This game for example...
There is no way Brasas could be a fascist because he is standing out so much by voting "No" all the time.
But maybe he's voting "No" because he thinks no one will consider him a fascist since that would be too obvious.
In essence, the whole argument is meaningless.
AtE - Appeal to Emotion which uses feelings in lieu of a cogent logical argument. A simple example is the "If you lynch me, you'll lose!". Which is only true if that individual isn't scum, but isn't that what scum would say too?
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted April 22, 2018
But maybe he's voting "No" because he thinks no one will consider him a fascist since that would be too obvious.
In essence, the whole argument is meaningless.
I know... to spread FUD.
Could it really be ZFR, RW and Adalia? Did he really straight up tell the truth about his buddies... o_0
WIFOM aplenty!
Lifthrasil
Bring the GOG-Downloader back!
Registered: Apr 2011
From Germany
Posted April 22, 2018
9 pages total, including post game stuff. In my settings we are currently at 13 in this game.
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted April 22, 2018
Sorry Lift, the folks that stood out to me there were Hijack, Jmich, Agent and Cristi. Don't recall who the others were. I think Wyrm modded though... funny coincidence that.
Anyway that game made it kind of obvious that I would be likely swimming agains tthe current here... but I just went with it.
greeklover
Adventurer
Registered: Apr 2017
From Greece
Posted April 22, 2018
FMPOV zfr and brasas have many FoS in their a$$:D
RWarehall
Ja'loja!
Registered: Jan 2012
From United States
Posted April 22, 2018
But maybe he's voting "No" because he thinks no one will consider him a fascist since that would be too obvious.
In essence, the whole argument is meaningless.
I know... to spread FUD.
Could it really be ZFR, RW and Adalia? Did he really straight up tell the truth about his buddies... o_0
WIFOM aplenty!
Now, if you had voted "No" and we started with fascist policies, I would have had to lean you liberal.
I only have your word that that is how you always play (yet you also claim that you switch it up and sometimes will say "Yes" although we haven't seen it this game).
In short, I distrust you from your track record. I trust ZFR because of his, where he proposed passing the first government. He supported the plan of going with people from proven governments. Thus far, all his actual actions have been right even going so far as to vote against his own government to support Scene's who had an existing track record.
Ironically, despite Scene and all his misgivings and his direct opposition to ZFR, I trust him too. Wanna guess why? Maybe because of his track record with two passed liberal policies.
Until something changes, I'm going with established actions over the "what ifs" of votes for a failed government. We do not know what policy they would have passed, and we do not know their alignments. So to jump to conclusions based and votes seems equivalent to reading tea leaves.
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Lifthrasil
Bring the GOG-Downloader back!
Registered: Apr 2011
From Germany
supplementscene
New User
Registered: Nov 2015
From United Kingdom
Posted April 23, 2018
I need to be AFK now, not sure I can still come back tonight. Will try though...
So I went back to page 10 (I have the long post count per page setting).
This was around when I started my business travel, I had noticed your earlier comment that Scene much later used to really put pressure on you, but that whole discussion you had with Scene I had glossed over, so I kept it back of mind but gave it little weight.
373 I asked folks to openly state their vote
374 you replied - was a nice funny :)
381 you warn me about the No voting
389 I reply - a crusade against you I do not see...
see points 2.2 and 2.3 where I rank you higher than cristi or blotunga
I basically tell you why I will vote No and none of it is because of you per se...
I ask you for reads though
391 you kind of weasel out of it... I don't make much of it though
392 you double down on my no voting
393 I reply and again, I don't see any crusade there - I did needle you about not wanting attention, and guess why? because you didn't want to give reads and were engaging me... so why not push a bit?
400 you actually back down somewhat
403 again
417 and 418 you're dancing with Scene
420 is when I am back and despite provocating kusu when I reply to you still I'm still feelin very neutral
421 you are a bit unhinged IMO, but still funny
423 I'm trying to relax you... whatever alignment you have it's win/win
and I push on the potential slip from earlier on... to see what happens
424 still emotions and triple posting bug on top and I don't think your answer is strong
426 I reply and tell you that
432 you joke again, and I'm starting to think there's something actually there
435 you slip again here IMO
443 you crack another joke
445 I'm back and here I do push harder - I accuse you directly (because why not, let's see what happens)
I point out the slip in 435 - two strikes but who's counting
I still give you the benefit of the doubt and practically invite anyone to help you
I also reply to your joke and why not... I decide to push where it might hurt... but even here I give a strong hint that if you're Liberal you shouldn't bite. (the Mystic River reference)
Well... you bit. So I shot you and dumped you in the Mystic. ;)
No really, I have even told you how you can regain cred. You're not interested...
I am honestly amazed that anyone can think you're Liberal at this point. The only reason I still doubt my scum read of you a bit is that RW is a strong player, and scum RW maybe knows you are Liberal and is trying to hit a homerun by defending you.
If I was scum with you I'd have thrown you under the bus... nothing personal. First scum game is always tough.
Plus RWarehall quotes:
1. I tend to trust ZFR, some others seemingly don't.
2. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with an extra government before Greek's if that meant both ZFR and mine pass. I don't think the extra step would really hurt us
3. I look at ZFR and while there is a healthy dose of what could be either devil's advocate liberalism or subtle fascist passing of shade, I notice that a few times he has brought up very important points such as his explanation of why a fascist would be passing 2L to a liberal instead of 1L1F.
4. Let's be clear, I'm supportive because ZFR has said all the right things so far
5. One thing I was hoping to take out of this election is ZFR's alignment based on who might try to derail it (or whether than turned out to be nobody in which case he'd be almost definitely fascist given our lead). When I saw Kusu fight it, my first thought is that's one fascist trying to derail a liberal win.
6. It's posts like this that make me believe you are not what you claim. If you were a liberal, you'd realize how impossible it is to spot Hitler (because I've been trying to think up creative ways to do so). You'd also have a greater appreciation of how difficult it is to spot a fascist and how much guesswork is involved. There usually is no "probably" about it, just hair-pulling and doubt. That said, I now do have you in the "probably fascist" camp, but it took this slip of yours to do it.
7. My preference for the last 3 before Greek is:
Blotunga - not much to go on, but more than Adalia
Adalia - I don't trust Brasas, middle by default
Analysis
1. Backing ZFR
2. Lobbing for both his and ZFRs governments
3. The fact ZFR criticised the passing of is a good thing. I still maintain this is the best way of liberal cause. Neither RW or ZFR agree.
4. This is clearly wrong and a lie. ZFR even if Liberal definitely hasn't said 'all the right things'. I questioned in 362 about this asking if RWarehall is fascist.
5. Now this is an odd post. Why is Kusu being accused of being fascist from very little evidence? Have I missed something or is this a huge defensive deflection.
6. A further accusation that Kusu is Facist.
7. OK THIS IS HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. RWarehall's Presidential preferences are all of the Yes voters for ZFR. No way is this a coincidence.
The Fascists/Hitler are: ZFR, RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga
What's more Blotunga is calling Kosu fascist and doesn't want Brasas as President, oh it'll have to be 2 of those other guys.....
Blotunga is voting against Dedoporno
RW was suspicious of Dedoporno based on what was a fairly factual reply.
Adalia has attacked me very early on.
We've won Liberals we now know who the Scum are......
VOTE FOR CAPTAIN PORNO
RWarehall
Ja'loja!
Registered: Jan 2012
From United States
Posted April 23, 2018
Or is the post I'm replying to a "shitpost"? (WIFOM)
Or is this post of yours more an AtE? Because I don't see this so-called obvious shit posting or throwing in the towel that you speak of. And I don't see how these emotional arguments change the facts of his voting record.
The problem is I don't see a lot of substance to your posts. They are just filled with unsupported claims that ZFR is just so obviously scum. And even then the opposition against him seems to be cherry-picked such as voting against his own government where he at first asked for clarification from Kusu as to why he was chosen, didn't like what little he heard and voted against it to move to a more trusted president (incidentally Scene).
Let me put it another way. Okay, so I'm to believe Scene is liberal and ZFR is fascist. How exactly does it make sense for ZFR to bypass his chance to participate in a government in favor of someone he knows to be a liberal?
This is the problem I see. When I look at the situations we have had and who has voted for what and why, your allegations just don't fit the actions I'd expect of a fascist.
Or is this post of yours more an AtE? Because I don't see this so-called obvious shit posting or throwing in the towel that you speak of. And I don't see how these emotional arguments change the facts of his voting record.
The problem is I don't see a lot of substance to your posts. They are just filled with unsupported claims that ZFR is just so obviously scum. And even then the opposition against him seems to be cherry-picked such as voting against his own government where he at first asked for clarification from Kusu as to why he was chosen, didn't like what little he heard and voted against it to move to a more trusted president (incidentally Scene).
Let me put it another way. Okay, so I'm to believe Scene is liberal and ZFR is fascist. How exactly does it make sense for ZFR to bypass his chance to participate in a government in favor of someone he knows to be a liberal?
This is the problem I see. When I look at the situations we have had and who has voted for what and why, your allegations just don't fit the actions I'd expect of a fascist.
adaliabooks
"Vell, Zaphod's just zis guy, you know?"
Registered: Jun 2013
From United Kingdom
Posted April 23, 2018
So I don't buy that ZFR would make such a simple mistake as a fascist, and everything since has just been piling on, bad having been on the receiving end of that more than once I know how frustrating it can be.