You are right but Lift's question is actually irrelevant. All liberals will vote yes to the next government to avoid the automatic enacting of the policy on the top of the deck if the government is not elected.

You're right. So strike that question and just answer the rest.


Appeal to Emotion and Wine In Front Of Me.
The latter is a reference to the movie and book "The Princess Bride" and refers to thinking back and forth "Scum would do that. But Scum is trying to appear towny, so he would never do that. But since it is obvious that scum would never do that, scum might try to do it claiming that scum would never do it... and so on.

List of Mafia-Abbreviations here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations

Let's ask the table? You and me are looking kinda biased...

Heh :)

I don't see much value in discussing hypotheticals which are already way past... it's not like I have not been active today otherwise. If you guys have time, I'll pass you the link to the Resistance game where I pretty much used same meta. You will see I did vote Yes there, just like I will vote Yes here... it's a matter of timing and context.

Main differences are - Resistance there are 5 policies max, first to 3 wins. There are 5 attempts at a government for each policy before chaos which is automatically fascist. The government size changes (usually increasing) depending on the total player count. No random element to the policy result, each government member votes in secret for Liberal or Fascist result and one single Fascist is enough. No term limit. No fascist powers.

My feeling now is that Resistance is less random but a lot of the same dynamics are applicable.

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/forum_resistance_1_the_might_of_metal
9 pages total, including post game stuff. In my settings we are currently at 13 in this game.

Unfortunately I'm at the center of controversy right now so I can't be coy or subtle. My read of the situation is that I prefer dedo/scene to RW/scene. I stated my votes intention openly already and I have said I am willing to bluff, which IMO allows votecounting to be uncertain. I'm not sure what the best approach is for the rest, but the open discussion seems to me to have worked well.

Mate, the presidential order is the order our names appear in Zeo's opening posts.
Your post's formatting is really awkward though...

Appeal to Emotion - I assume no explanation required

Wine In Front of Me ... this is from the Princess Bride movie. It means situations where you're thinking: He knows X so will do A. But he knows that I know that so he will do B. But he knows I know that he knows that I know...

WIFOM - Wine in front of me. It is a Princess Bride reference
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TRMQwMNnY

It demonstrates the point that anything that is a bluff might also be a double-bluff

This game for example...
There is no way Brasas could be a fascist because he is standing out so much by voting "No" all the time.
But maybe he's voting "No" because he thinks no one will consider him a fascist since that would be too obvious.

In essence, the whole argument is meaningless.

AtE - Appeal to Emotion which uses feelings in lieu of a cogent logical argument. A simple example is the "If you lynch me, you'll lose!". Which is only true if that individual isn't scum, but isn't that what scum would say too?

So why do you guys keep pushing it? :)

I know... to spread FUD.

Could it really be ZFR, RW and Adalia? Did he really straight up tell the truth about his buddies... o_0

WIFOM aplenty!

Oh wow. I was in that game! I totally forgot about that. So I did play Resistance after all - but I still don't see a benefit in a fixed 'no' vote for the first three rounds or so. But I guess we just disagree on that.

You were? I had forgotten :o
Sorry Lift, the folks that stood out to me there were Hijack, Jmich, Agent and Cristi. Don't recall who the others were. I think Wyrm modded though... funny coincidence that.

Anyway that game made it kind of obvious that I would be likely swimming agains tthe current here... but I just went with it.

FMPOV zfr and brasas have many FoS in their a$$:D

Or maybe because you seem to be twisting the argument. I've stated succinctly why I don't trust you. It is because you voted "No" AND all the governments passed a liberal policy. It's not just your "No" votes.

Now, if you had voted "No" and we started with fascist policies, I would have had to lean you liberal.

I only have your word that that is how you always play (yet you also claim that you switch it up and sometimes will say "Yes" although we haven't seen it this game).

In short, I distrust you from your track record. I trust ZFR because of his, where he proposed passing the first government. He supported the plan of going with people from proven governments. Thus far, all his actual actions have been right even going so far as to vote against his own government to support Scene's who had an existing track record.

Ironically, despite Scene and all his misgivings and his direct opposition to ZFR, I trust him too. Wanna guess why? Maybe because of his track record with two passed liberal policies.

Until something changes, I'm going with established actions over the "what ifs" of votes for a failed government. We do not know what policy they would have passed, and we do not know their alignments. So to jump to conclusions based and votes seems equivalent to reading tea leaves.

Still trusting ZFR?

He shitposted as scum...

Just thrown in the towel please...

Sounds uncomfortable.

Interesting analysis of the game. Combined with RW voting for ZFR as President and alongside ZFR voted against him being Chancellor.

Plus RWarehall quotes:

1. I tend to trust ZFR, some others seemingly don't.

2. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with an extra government before Greek's if that meant both ZFR and mine pass. I don't think the extra step would really hurt us

3. I look at ZFR and while there is a healthy dose of what could be either devil's advocate liberalism or subtle fascist passing of shade, I notice that a few times he has brought up very important points such as his explanation of why a fascist would be passing 2L to a liberal instead of 1L1F.

4. Let's be clear, I'm supportive because ZFR has said all the right things so far

5. One thing I was hoping to take out of this election is ZFR's alignment based on who might try to derail it (or whether than turned out to be nobody in which case he'd be almost definitely fascist given our lead). When I saw Kusu fight it, my first thought is that's one fascist trying to derail a liberal win.

6. It's posts like this that make me believe you are not what you claim. If you were a liberal, you'd realize how impossible it is to spot Hitler (because I've been trying to think up creative ways to do so). You'd also have a greater appreciation of how difficult it is to spot a fascist and how much guesswork is involved. There usually is no "probably" about it, just hair-pulling and doubt. That said, I now do have you in the "probably fascist" camp, but it took this slip of yours to do it.

7. My preference for the last 3 before Greek is:
Blotunga - not much to go on, but more than Adalia
Adalia - I don't trust Brasas, middle by default

Analysis

1. Backing ZFR

2. Lobbing for both his and ZFRs governments

3. The fact ZFR criticised the passing of is a good thing. I still maintain this is the best way of liberal cause. Neither RW or ZFR agree.

4. This is clearly wrong and a lie. ZFR even if Liberal definitely hasn't said 'all the right things'. I questioned in 362 about this asking if RWarehall is fascist.

5. Now this is an odd post. Why is Kusu being accused of being fascist from very little evidence? Have I missed something or is this a huge defensive deflection.

6. A further accusation that Kusu is Facist.

7. OK THIS IS HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. RWarehall's Presidential preferences are all of the Yes voters for ZFR. No way is this a coincidence.

The Fascists/Hitler are: ZFR, RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga

What's more Blotunga is calling Kosu fascist and doesn't want Brasas as President, oh it'll have to be 2 of those other guys.....

Blotunga is voting against Dedoporno

RW was suspicious of Dedoporno based on what was a fairly factual reply.

Adalia has attacked me very early on.

We've won Liberals we now know who the Scum are......

VOTE FOR CAPTAIN PORNO

Or is the post I'm replying to a "shitpost"? (WIFOM)
Or is this post of yours more an AtE? Because I don't see this so-called obvious shit posting or throwing in the towel that you speak of. And I don't see how these emotional arguments change the facts of his voting record.

The problem is I don't see a lot of substance to your posts. They are just filled with unsupported claims that ZFR is just so obviously scum. And even then the opposition against him seems to be cherry-picked such as voting against his own government where he at first asked for clarification from Kusu as to why he was chosen, didn't like what little he heard and voted against it to move to a more trusted president (incidentally Scene).

Let me put it another way. Okay, so I'm to believe Scene is liberal and ZFR is fascist. How exactly does it make sense for ZFR to bypass his chance to participate in a government in favor of someone he knows to be a liberal?

This is the problem I see. When I look at the situations we have had and who has voted for what and why, your allegations just don't fit the actions I'd expect of a fascist.

This is my problem with the ZFR as fascist argument. I can see it as a newbie fascist unsure what to do when suddenly trust into government, but if that's the case then it was a serious fumble. And I don't think ZFR fumbles. He pretty much singlehandedly bagged town a win in his first (and only) Mafia game due to an absolutely steller mason play. A role which is just as difficult as scum for a newbie.
So I don't buy that ZFR would make such a simple mistake as a fascist, and everything since has just been piling on, bad having been on the receiving end of that more than once I know how frustrating it can be.