dtgreene: One thing to consider: The reply, if on a public forum, isn't *just* for the person who posted the ignorant statements; it's also for the bystanders who are reading the thread, some of whom might be easier to convince, or who might be more willing to learn.

zeogold: I feel like Skeletonbow and Bookwyrm are the only people ACTUALLY discussing the real issues at hand here. Almost everybody else is going the way of pretty much every other thread that tried to ask for suggestions on moderation, such as mine and Goodaltgamer's (before he left), right down to the upvote/downvote wars where one "faction" feels one way and upvotes everybody who shows this position, then a new "faction" swings in and votes the exact opposite. I mean, I get that you guys think that X individuals should be removed from the forum, but I'm not sure how much we're helping here with all this ad hominem noise.

Fables, I'm going to give you 3 pieces of advice that I believe nearly everybody here will agree on:
1. Eliminate rep. I don't care what you have to do to get rid of it, just rid us of it forever, sooner rather than later. It's ruined, we all know it's ruined, and we don't need a stupid number to judge for us who is and isn't right. We can figure that out for ourselves. It doesn't matter if there's nothing stored up to replace it. You can figure that out much farther down the line. For now, just rid us of this broken system.
2. Start banning as quickly as possible. The sooner, the better. I guarantee you that even saying "I have the ability to ban" is going to get you scores and scores of reports from trolls, alts, political zealots, and people with grudges. Ignore all of this and use the forum rules as your criteria. I'm sure there's people which a majority of us want banned, and we can debate on that all week if we want. That's gonna take forever for you to do properly while ensuring you're not being unfair. Just go through and rid this place of the confirmed offenders, then move on from there, since you'll at least begin to cut down on some of the nonsense. Prove to us that this isn't another empty promise employed by a paper tiger.
3. Start working on some means of fixing the account creation unless you feel like getting your chatbox filled with literal spam and ending up on the same pile of bodies in the dumpster behind your office as Konrad.

RWarehall: So you are claiming to be such an outstanding citizen, supporting Vain and his Misogyny, Transphobic, Racist neo-Nazi Stormfront insults as you call out a whole bunch of forum members in this post, call me out in a thread you joined just to insult me and continue to insult me here. You've called many people names in threads from Marvel fanboy to worse, as well as butted into many other discussions to do the same, but somehow think you are "entitled" to call anyone out you wish. Explain to me how you aren't selectively going after your personal enemies again?

You have just confirmed my point how you are one of the serious problems on the forum. When you support certain name-calling and your own while attacking others its clearly hypocritical.

@fables Like I said. Look at Vain. Look at Breja. See what your selectivity has wrought and how this group of people lauding your decision are looking to use you to continue their own personal purging of these forums. They clearly think they are excluded from any discipline in what are clearly harassing actions designed to make certain others on this forum uncomfortable...

Just as when Vain tried to false flag me by responding to a post I had edited for minor spelling errors. He changed the words in my post to say I called him a Jew and tried to report me for it. Many people saw him do this....

I have not used foul language since the new moderation regime, but Vain and Breja don't seem to have changed at all.....

real.geizterfahr: If I was a moderator, I'd lock this thread and give most people in here their first warning. All you're doing here is to try to get fables to ban your favorite nemeses. "Look what xyz wrote in this thread five years ago", "xyz is full of whateverism", "xyz is the real problem of the forum", "xyz has to be banned because he's downvoting me with an army of alts that only I can see" -.-

Seriously, guys and girls: Just stop it! Draw a line and leave all this bulshit behind you. Stop posting your collection of "evil posts from user xyz" and stop discussing user xyz's behaviour the past couple of years. Most forums I know have a rule that forbids to openly discuss other users' behaviour, because this is exactly where most hostility comes from. Of course user xyz will attack you when you start to tell everyone what a douche he is!

If you don't like someone, don't speak with him. If you think someone is an evil racist, report his NEW evil racist posts (not some years old collection) to a blue. But don't tell everyone that you have proof that he is an evil racist. We can't do shit about it anyway. All you'll achieve with this is to turn a thread about forum rules into a thread about your personal animosities. And we've had enough of that the last couple of years.
real.geizterfahr: You?

ps. Oh, wait, 他 really means "you" and not "fuck".

Brasas: Hej Fables,

Since I happened to be around, would like to ask if any thought has been given to being more specific / explicit / overt on specific violations of the rules?

I remember once getting heated up with your colleague for what I saw as the unwilligness to name names in public. I saw and see it as an abdication of responsibility.
I am still wondering at that because the two thread closures so far have been vague, with their specific motives "in the eye of the beholder" to some extent - polarizing instead of unifying.

This is worrying to me for a couple of reasons:
1- it can be interpreted as wanting to maintain vagueness to be able to subvert the rules. Examples matter so people know where the actual lines are. I actually think something else is at play but any perception of the previous is corrosive via undermining trust in your impartiality.
2- I suspect there is a cultural aversion to doing the dirty laundry in public, for reasons of historical ressonance concerning drawing attention to oneself - or worse, to others. Ironically, or just plain tragically, trying to do things in a individually humane way can be just what is needed for a mob to form. It ends up enabling a form of heckler's veto in fact, despite intentions to the contrary.

So at the risk of going way against the current zeitgeist, kindly consider to name names. I'd suggest taking a look at the Slate Star Codex site approach for inspiration - the list of folks under moderation, reasons for same, links...

And good luck I guess.

thomq: So deletion is your only means? You don't have a way to move posts to another (or new) thread for maintaining relevancy? Do you at least have a reasonable supply of microwavable popcorn for watching the show? Or do you just tune in on your lunch breaks away from your real work?

I mean, if all you got is a hammer, then I would imagine it could be a long wait before there's a suitable nail. And it seems like that's what you've been saying, that you expect (or perhaps "prefer"?) your actions will be rarely applied. But is that really from the lack of available options for moderating (presumably software) or is it from your optimism the members will gradually work out their different approaches of courtesy (f.e., accepting differences in expression rather than demanding sameness from each other)?

I guess I'm curious how your commitment meshes with your means (or lack thereof)… Questioning not so much your sincerity as your ability (particularly resources) for following through. (Which is partly why I've been suggesting additional means for each member to curate a personal experience of the forum listings, because I believe such a responsibility originates with the member perusing them.)

Kleetus: [moderator-blue]

Oh come on now, the rep system could be easily removed and yet you guys have done nothing.

If it can be done via a simple user script, it can be easily done server side.

What's the point of moderation when users can delete posts and threads and trash people's rep?

You guys have changed code to prevent certain URL shorteners being used, and that was done within an hour, yet can't remove rep?

Rep is like the elephant in the room that for some reason you won't tackle and yet causes more issues than pretty much anything else here.

And regarding alt accounts, that could be easily curtailed by IP/email address, other forums have been doing it for years.

No need for draconian measures.

[/moderator-blue]

dtgreene: Out of curiosity, I have decided to check how post editing and attachments interact on this forum.

Version 1: Attaching an empty file.

Version 2: Removing that file. (Success!)

Version 3: Attaching a (misnamed) sound file. Note that this might not be the most pleasant sound, but it is only one second long and isn't particularly loud (you might need to rename the file so that it has the .wav extension).

Edit: In conclusion, you can remove an attachment when editing a post, and you can add a new one, if you want. (Also, "long" -> "loud".)

Marioface5: I disagree. I don't think voting on posts should be a thing. It will always be abused, Reddit is a great example of that, and even if you take away the ability to vote negatively, you're still stuck with an "I agree" button. Some users will behave or post in ways that they normally wouldn't just to get rep. It's a meaningless number unless you want to know who's best at pandering to the majority.

If you really want to keep rep, I would recommend removing the voting system and having it just work based on how long you've been here. One point for every day you make a post, perhaps. Maybe just one point per day no matter what, to avoid people posting daily just for rep. Breaking rules could decrease rep, and the amount could depend on the severity of the infraction.
Marioface5: I'm interested to see Fables' response to this, but my guess is that the rule-breaking was because of targeting a specific user.

EDIT: Apparently the forum automatically merges consecutive posts by the same user. That's pretty cool!

fronzelneekburm: Game over, man! Game over!

Usually, I don‘t publicise PMs, unless they‘re sent from scammers or other assorted scum. But since this might me of interest to those of you concerned about the level of moderation to be expected from the new and improved™ gog-forum, here‘s a message I just received from Fables.

Unfortunately, I am unable to comply with Fables‘ request for deletion, due to the simple fact that this shitty-ass forum doesn‘t even have a delete button. Maybe if we make this a group effort and (TRIGGER WARNING! CIS-normative language!) you fellas downvote my post into oblivion and hit the report button, it will go away all by itself. Regretfully, the message Fables sent me failed to clarify whether my post was marked for extermination because dtgreene explicitly asked for it (if that‘s the case, maybe she could have just asked me directly, instead of needlessly getting the janitor involved) or if this is just a preemptive strike in case anyone gets offended. I'm a gentleman and I always try assume the best in people, so my guess is that the latter is the case.

There is a silver lining, though. I will indeed refrain from posting similar stuff in the future. Come to think of it, I think I‘ll be refraining from posting stuff here altogether in the future.

Congratulations, Fables, you just ran off a forum member who got along fine with just about everyone. And you did it in order to appease a fringe group that has way too fucking much free time on their hands and gets offended for a hobby. These people systematically suck the fun out of everything, and that was the main thing I came here for: to have fun. Engage, meet some interesting people, maybe even learn a thing or two. Being constantly lectured by stuck-up, self-important assholes, however, is not my idea of fun.

So, adios, amigos! It was a privilege to be posting among you... like, literally! That's what it says in the forum rules! Enjoy your safe space, everyone! The only winning move is not to play.

Shadowstalker16: So will the new rules be coming into effect this quarter? Its important to take the necessary time and all, but I feel like the forum is a country that lacks a constitution in this current state. Granted it is still GOG's forum to run and moderate, it still wouldn't be a bad choice to show us the new rules, seeing how this has become a sort of issue in itself.

Shadowstalker16: Yeah its more of a personal feeling I guess. Glad to hear you got something out of the arguments, considering there were two opposing camps. So the new rules will be coming this month? I'm waiting for the new rules as you said that they will be less vague.

Djaron: Been around since 2008
Never bothered to "join" the community until 2015 exactly because the forum tool was archaic
It already was obsolete by the very day it started (as in 2008 i was setting up and administrating boards with more features already)
My 2 cents: if it is THAT an issue even for you to make your job, simply archive the whole stuff away and launch a brand new one along with the new rules, one with the features and tools both users and gog staff would need
Let the archived stuff accessible (locked) for users to at least keep, cut'n'paste the stuff tied to each game's sub forum

SeduceMePlz: I've been on and off this board for the past few months, mostly in release threads - I've been busy. Apparently I've missed some things - I don't recall being asked for feedback about the rules of conduct (and I suspect this might have been an example of GOG sometimes communicating important things - removal notices for example - in easily missed forum threads). Or maybe I've forgotten or didn't really realize what was being asked. Whatever the case, can I get a link to the discussion to read it please?

Let me tell you how it looks to someone who doesn't spend all of their free time here: Some of the most hateful, divisive ideologues on this board are celebrating your post as some kind of victory. They claim an interest in "civility", but these are the users constantly hurling invective - racist, misogynist, bigot, xenophobe - at other users. While there have been a *very* small number of users who expressed actual racial hatred (etc), most of the time these accusations are hurled at people who simply disagree with certain 'progressive' political or social views.

I have no reason to distrust you personally, fables - we have had some good interactions in the past correcting minor issues with the website, and I have a positive impression of you. But without transparency, it's tough to trust that increased moderation won't become what we've seen on other websites - a means for these progressives/SJWs/whatever-you-call-them to silence their opponents and police language and opinion.

For the present, I'm adopting a wait-and-see attitude. I usually drop a small cash bomb on GOG during the seasonal sales. Looking over the spring sale, I could easily spend $50 or more scooping up some cheap games for the backlog. However, in light of the uncertainty around this issue, I'm going to drop that down to about $8 and just pick up Hybrid Wars Deluxe + Season Pass. There'll be plenty of sales in the future if this all amounts to much ado about nothing.

Djaron: then i feel sorry to tell you that what you just said was in fact feeling sarcastic and snarky, despite how cleverly said

Again, in my job it is simple (yet, my job/trade may be easier than yours, given how dumb it is):

if a tool is not suited to the task, take another tool
if your tool is broken, fix it
if your broken tool can't be fixed, replace it

i guess such old-folk styled wisdom can't apply to nowadays more tech-based jobs like the internet things and such.
it is sad that such simples solutions are not available for your trade

PS: also, it is not really giving me any light or answers to my other questions a few posts above, yet (thanx in advance)

Djaron: then i'll take your word on it... then you are more than welcome to go back to my previous questions whenever you like (because some are in fact important concerns for me at least, so...)

I can understand the feeling of having to work in unfavorable context (like "lack of required ressources", "lack of support", "task requiring more time/effort than initially granted or predicted")
my last job had to be done with ressources i were never granted and that i acquired with my own purse, had to be done with some teachings involved from a superior that i was never granted so i gathered info and documentation myself to teach on my own, and way more time required than i was granted so i had to overwork without being paid for the extended time

not that i suggest you to go the same road i did, in fact... just was saying that i can understand

now, a more positive attitude is not just giving up by seeing it can't be done "yet", but keep the idea in a corner or mind and slowly works the idea's way to the people in charge above for a later future.

Because, the way as i see it, tbh, regardless of any other issues here, the forum engine by itself is already causing people issues on its own in many unsuspected or unobvious ways. And it can be tiresome to keep treating symptoms when not being allowed to deal with the source

skeletonbow: They will likely use the lightest hand necessary to stop the disruptive problematic behaviour, and go from there. If someone is disruptive enough to the forums to get a forum ban and that puts an end to their disruptive behaviour, then it probably would stop there. If someone tried to bypass this by making alt accounts, circumventing other measures or reactively launching something more disruptive to GOG itself, such as flooding support with angry messages about being banned, etc. then perhaps they would respond accordingly to that problem with as heavy or as light of a hand as possible.

One would have to read all of the legalese, but I believe it is more than likely within their terms of service agreement to terminate a customer account if certain conditions set out in the agreement are violated, and that probably includes having an account completely deleted at their discretion. I highly doubt that GOG would take such a strong measure unless they found it was absolutely necessary to protect their website or business against a relentless individual attacking their business in a hostile manner or something.

They'll be posting the new rules soon enough, and will likely clarify anything then.

Tauto: How is it that you can post this crap but if I did it would be deleted or reported.The biased and victimization in this place is way out of hand.There is no fairness in this place but it's them and us,so let's get them.

Tauto: Pretty simple really,you were not online when it was posted.

Tauto: Of course you sleep,so do I and it is completely understandable.You say you want a better forum and yet me,Kleetus and Fonz are the only ones I have seen you speak to.You either go in boots and all and clean up this place and make everyone understand your position on what's okay and what's not.Please don't ignore some user's because they may be considered ''nice'' people and do the fair thing and hit anyone out of line.You will undoubtedly hurt some feelings and some will threaten to leave,okay big deal let them leave as long as it is fair justice after all you are the Judge.