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Children of Morta is now available for pre-order. Save 10% and get an official soundtrack free until release.

The Bergson family has watched over Mount Morta for generations as the guardians of the mystical mountain. They now face their most dangerous trial as a family... Corruption has spread, morphing the once peaceful mountain into a violent and monster infested nightmare. Experience what it means to be in a family of heroes. Take part in their journey, their struggles, and their victories!
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Zoidberg: :(

Pity, that's a pass then.
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Carradice: Keep in mind that it is a demo, and that it mentions it is a beta and that it does not represent the final quality of the game itself.
Taking into account that a lot of devs don't care about key rebindings, rendering games unplayable, this is reason enough for me to ignore this game altogether, and that's a pity.
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eric5h5: ][...] developers generally find that demos reduce sales [...]
Got any source for that?
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Carradice: Keep in mind that it is a demo, and that it mentions it is a beta and that it does not represent the final quality of the game itself.
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Zoidberg: Taking into account that a lot of devs don't care about key rebindings, rendering games unplayable, this is reason enough for me to ignore this game altogether, and that's a pity.
Is the situation really that dire to warrant avoiding the game? I mean we are on PC, an open platform... redefining keys on a generic hid kb takes less time than writing this post whether it's supported by the game or not.
Should this feature be included in-game options though? Absolutely! Unity3d even has built in launcher for doing exactly that and it might be just a simple config file edit in worse case.
So in the end, whose pity it really is...whose indeed.


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eric5h5: ][...] developers generally find that demos reduce sales [...]
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Carradice: Got any source for that?
Probably some case where their game wasn't good in the first place and demo gave it away... esp. big corp/publishers don't like to do demos from my experience, since they rely on hype/pr/marketing. On the other hand it takes resources to develop/maintain a demo branch, since in some engines it's quit a lot of extra work to create the demoloop (removing content, code, etc causes issues), while in other engines it's rather easy (e.g. gamemaker, where you can simply put "end of the demo room" at a certain event/stage, but I would still remove the extra content).

For me playing a demo is more like confirmation of what I saw in the gameplay trailer and on screenshots. Either I'm interested or not...at least for me it's that simple. I just get to see how it looks/sounds/runs on my setup. If I wasn't interested to begin with, I wouldn't bother with the demo 99% of time anyway.
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eric5h5: ][...] developers generally find that demos reduce sales [...]
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Carradice: Got any source for that?
https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/11/jesse-schell-releasing-a-game-demo-can-cut-sales-in-half
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/game-demos-can-hurt-sales-suggests-research/1100-6410863/
Thanks for the links, although they provide nothing of substance here.

Both mention the same guy that provides no evidence, might as well be selling snake oil.The second one mentions "data", but no data are shown at all. No publication. Nihil.
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Zoidberg: Taking into account that a lot of devs don't care about key rebindings, rendering games unplayable, this is reason enough for me to ignore this game altogether, and that's a pity.
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Spectrum_Legacy: Is the situation really that dire to warrant avoiding the game? I mean we are on PC, an open platform... redefining keys on a generic hid kb takes less time than writing this post whether it's supported by the game or not.
Should this feature be included in-game options though? Absolutely! Unity3d even has built in launcher for doing exactly that and it might be just a simple config file edit in worse case.
So in the end, whose pity it really is...whose indeed.

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Carradice: Got any source for that?
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Spectrum_Legacy: Probably some case where their game wasn't good in the first place and demo gave it away... esp. big corp/publishers don't like to do demos from my experience, since they rely on hype/pr/marketing. On the other hand it takes resources to develop/maintain a demo branch, since in some engines it's quit a lot of extra work to create the demoloop (removing content, code, etc causes issues), while in other engines it's rather easy (e.g. gamemaker, where you can simply put "end of the demo room" at a certain event/stage, but I would still remove the extra content).

For me playing a demo is more like confirmation of what I saw in the gameplay trailer and on screenshots. Either I'm interested or not...at least for me it's that simple. I just get to see how it looks/sounds/runs on my setup. If I wasn't interested to begin with, I wouldn't bother with the demo 99% of time anyway.
Man, you nailed it. Check this, straight from the first link provided above:

>>the best-selling games were those that built expectations in players, but then gave them no way to try it out short of buying a copy.

So, yes, hype.

Then, different market segments might be expected to behave differently. Take Total War: Warhammer. People know Total War already. People know Warhammer. Well done or badly done, you have fair clues about the kind of game you might expect.

Take a more obscure game that cannot allow for a vast marketing effort. Moreover, a game that tries to distinguish itself from others. Maybe doing a few things differently, maybe better, maybe doing something no one did before. A demo can help people find out.

Hype, purchase, disappointment, uninstall, mark the maker down in order to avoid it like the plague. Is that the marketing model that this guy promotes? Is it healthy for the industry at all?

Just from the top of my mind, there are so many games that I wouldn't have bought these games EVER if not for their demos.
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Carradice: Thanks for the links, although they provide nothing of substance here.

Both mention the same guy that provides no evidence, might as well be selling snake oil.The second one mentions "data", but no data are shown at all. No publication. Nihil.
Well the guy mentioned says that if a company/publisher builds enough hype and people are not allowed to try the game out first as a demo and the only way for them to try it out is by buying the game... it kinda makes sense that they might sell less copies if people had a chance to give it a try beforehand and see how the game really is. Esp. in cases where the game is not as good as its marketing and hype surrounding it in general. I believe that there are people out there who buy stuff solely based on ads, as sad as it may sound. Oh and those thoughtful articles come out 6 years ago, when game refunds were not as common as they are now...so if they locked you in, that was it, mission accomplished.

Sorry, but to say that "developers generally find that demos reduce sales" based on this guy's & co. article though is pretty weak assumption.

Edit: Just saw your reply above, you beat me to it! ;) Yea, if the game itself is good, then demo won't hurt the sales. People who try the stuff themselves, are invested in it, do their homework/research are not stupid and know a good game from hyped and polished turd. End user has nothing to loose by havign demos available. About the agenda some game "journalists" promote and push these days, it's one huge chapter in itself. One can't take them too seriously tbh.
Post edited June 24, 2019 by Spectrum_Legacy
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Carradice: Got any source for that?
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Spectrum_Legacy: Probably some case where their game wasn't good in the first place and demo gave it away... esp. big corp/publishers don't like to do demos from my experience, since they rely on hype/pr/marketing. On the other hand it takes resources to develop/maintain a demo branch, since in some engines it's quit a lot of extra work to create the demoloop (removing content, code, etc causes issues), while in other engines it's rather easy (e.g. gamemaker, where you can simply put "end of the demo room" at a certain event/stage, but I would still remove the extra content).

For me playing a demo is more like confirmation of what I saw in the gameplay trailer and on screenshots. Either I'm interested or not...at least for me it's that simple. I just get to see how it looks/sounds/runs on my setup. If I wasn't interested to begin with, I wouldn't bother with the demo 99% of time anyway.
People play demos not to see if it works on their hardware, but to invent/find reasons not to buy that game in particular. For example, most of people ask for demo because they think game *might* be a trash and if they have a chance to play the demo, they will focus more on negativity, because they actively search for any reason not to buy it, despite potential quality.

I mean it's fair not to buy the game based on demo, but in 89% of cases of not buying, it's usually game is good, but not cutting for most of users.
Don't ask me for 89%, I based that on my perception.
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BeatriceElysia: People play demos not to see if it works on their hardware, but to invent/find reasons not to buy that game in particular. For example, most of people ask for demo because they think game *might* be a trash and if they have a chance to play the demo, they will focus more on negativity, because they actively search for any reason not to buy it, despite potential quality.

I mean it's fair not to buy the game based on demo, but in 89% of cases of not buying, it's usually game is good, but not cutting for most of users.
Don't ask me for 89%, I based that on my perception.
Interesting point of view! No problem with the 89% either despite ballparking, it sounds scientific! I guess it's glass half-full vs glass half-empty situation now.
However I guess I don't fit into "most people" category, since I focused my resources on things I do like instead of the ones I dislike. I mean, no amount of peer-pressure and hype can be great enough to push me into playing something which I know beforehand that is not for me. I don't really need reaffirmation in this (wrong?)way! E.g. Disliking something outright, but playing the demo anyway (or even buying/playing the full game) just to fuel it into a hate with great passion... ;)

Simply put, games that don't speak to me in some way I leave in the store. Btw I do like this game, that's why I'm here.

But wait, aren't you a picky gamer yourself with fancy taste or something? If yes, then it has to be the same for you too! I can't believe you play stuff you dislike, just to torture yourself.
Just because I'm picky gamer, doesn't mean everything I dislike is trash. I don't like everything, but my taste isn't benchmark.

I was referring to the part where you said that demo ruin game sale because it was bad.

Point is: if demo tend ruin the game sales, it ruin the sale for both good and bad games.

https://kotaku.com/demos-are-great-for-gamers-not-so-great-for-game-sales-608603895

You CAN make a great demo for a crappy game, and vice versa. If you release a demo, do so in a smart manner.

That's the problem with only bad games are ruined by demo: reality is far more complex than "Demos hurt sales", and anyone who believes in these statements as if they were law is BOUND to fail in what is ostensibly a creative-driven industry.
Post edited June 30, 2019 by BeatriceElysia
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BeatriceElysia: [...]

Point is: if demo tend ruin the game sales, it ruin the sale for both good and bad games.

https://kotaku.com/demos-are-great-for-gamers-not-so-great-for-game-sales-608603895

[..]
That is a big if. Like in: if semaphores are made of caramel, eating them would be a concern for caries.

The link is the very same guy from the other links above...

Play demos out of curiosity. That may lead to nice findings, sometimes.

If hype presses someone so much that they play demos of games they do not like in order to confirm that said games are not for that person, without having to buy the game that they do not like in order to confirm that it is not for them indeed...

If that is the case... the problem is not the demo... the problem is paying too much heed to the hype.

As Spectrum_Legacy wrote, that talk was from a time where refunds were not that common. Also he was in a small company making games, and clearly did not want to take the effort to make demos, and wanted no one else to do so...

Demos help the discerning player? Yes. Demos cut the sales of overhyped titles in websites that do not offer refunds? Maybe in the shortest term... And only if the seller relies in locking the buyer in after falling in the trap.

The thing is, it does not seem to be a sustainable production/marketing model. At all.
Post edited June 30, 2019 by Carradice
If that is the case... the problem is not the demo... the problem is paying too much heed to the hype.
You're basically saying bad demo = bad game. I wonder do you really think bad games can't have awesome demos and good games bad demos.


About hype:
I can't agree with you
Hype is created by users who think they might like the game
most often than not, unrealistic expectation are being brought in the spotlight, but unless developer actually used any kind of lie about the game, then you can only blame yourself.

When hype bubble is busted you see lot of users blaming the devs for it, but I'm sure they know they can't blame devs for their hype because even in USA you can be sued for false advertising and I never saw any news of that.

If that is the case... the problem is not the demo... the problem is paying too much heed to the hype.
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BeatriceElysia: You're basically saying [...]
Nope. That is what you are saying.

About the guy that gave the talk (all the links are about the same guy). He was publishing games. He did not want to make demos. Then he did not want anybody else to make demos.

Sounds a lot like the Aesopian fox that lost its tail. ¬¬
Post edited June 30, 2019 by Carradice