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TrueDosGamer: I would say there are a lot of DOS titles not found on GOG = Good Old Games. I'm not sure why that is but perhaps their focus is not on every Good Old Game. But there are so many great DOS games that I've played and still have that should be on their site that I am shocked. But titles are being added constantly and perhaps one day it will show up. I mentioned Prince of Persia 1 and 2. And another user said they don't have it on this site. Ouch. But they do have the newer Prince of Persia games but just not the classic ones. I find that odd. I believe the DOS versions work fine in DOSBOX as I've played them before many times.
I think it has to do with labyrinthine way of contacting with current copyright holders to discuss distribution. Original 2 Princes were made by different company, Brøderbund, which is now defunct, and their successor company (The Learning Conpany) looks to be sold to other company (Mattel). Original developer donated his games to The National Museum of Play in 2014. I am not sure what it means (how can you donate software to some museum), but I think it is safe to assume that original 2 Princes are officially abandonware now.
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TrueDosGamer: My Windows Key on this keyboard is right below the Z key. I don't know about you but I'm going to have to contort my left thumb which would be hidden under my palm and hope I don't accidentally hit the Alt key by mistake.
The Win key is there for me as well, and I never had trouble confusing it with the alt key while using the thumb to press it. No worries though.

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TrueDosGamer: Ctrl+Escape Key, F, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Ctrl+Escape Key, C, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Windows Key, F, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Windows Key, C, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Win+F is not the same as Win, F, F. It may be if your start menu has the "Find Files and Folders" in it, but if it doesn't (or if it's in a different language), then it won't work. So while Ctrl+Escape will open the start menu, it's not the same as the Win key.
Or, if you prefer it this way, "Caps Lock, D" is different from "Shift-d", even if it may produce the same result (if something checks the shift state, it will return different results).

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TrueDosGamer: You didn't experience the dreaded Windows key during a critical moment during a game before? If you did you wouldn't be saying that. If it was a DOS game you'd cause it to crash if you went back to the Windows desktop accidentally.
I have, multiple times. So I learn to better position my fingers, and pay more attention to the keys.

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TrueDosGamer: The one stored on your hard drive could you give me the file date of the WAR.EXE file? Also is yours the CGA 4 color or the EGA/VGA version? Is your version playable or is it impossible to control?
You are asking for a computer scrapped years ago. The game was the CGA version, it was playable on an 8086, can't recall if the 80386 could play it or not, I think it was too fast.


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Sarisio: Problem with supplying pure ISO is that you NEED additional software to open (mount) it.
Win 8 and 10 can natively mount ISO files, as can Mac OS X and Linux. Windows 7 can burn the ISO to disk without 3rd party, but not mount them, and XP requires 3rd party software.


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TrueDosGamer: The VGA and EGA screen shots look like EGA 16 colors to me. Sometimes software companies don't want to spend the time to reupdate the graphics in a game completely. It was originally meant for 4 color CGA and 16 color Tandy so the VGA version is just a port of the Tandy with some color changes it looks like. Resolution was probably still at 320x200.
The trivia on Mobygames do mention that the MCGA was 16 colors, but different palette. The VGA resolution though seems to be 640x400. Compare this with this or this with this.


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Sarisio: but I think it is safe to assume that original 2 Princes are officially abandonware now.
They are not. Abandonware is not a legal term. They may be freeware if current rights holder allows free distribution, though who said rights holder is I've no idea.
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Sarisio: Problem with supplying pure ISO is that you NEED additional software to open (mount) it.
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JMich: Win 8 and 10 can natively mount ISO files, as can Mac OS X and Linux. Windows 7 can burn the ISO to disk without 3rd party, but not mount them, and XP requires 3rd party software.
Microsoft software is third-party from Windows now?
:-P
Post edited June 26, 2015 by Maighstir
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Maighstir: Microsoft software is third-party from Windows now?
:-P
Obviously. One Microsoft made XP and 7, the other Microsoft made ME and Vista. Ain't those two completely different companies? :P
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tammerwhisk: R.I.P. security and efficiency.
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TrueDosGamer: Not sure what this was referring? Care to elaborate?

Your profile icon reminds me of the kid on the Adlib Sound Card advertisement getting his head blown by some massive speakers.
Using older operating systems is far from secure in most cases, and they tend to not use hardware fully due to being designed with past limitations in mind.
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TrueDosGamer: I would say there are a lot of DOS titles not found on GOG = Good Old Games. I'm not sure why that is but perhaps their focus is not on every Good Old Game. But there are so many great DOS games that I've played and still have that should be on their site that I am shocked. But titles are being added constantly and perhaps one day it will show up. I mentioned Prince of Persia 1 and 2. And another user said they don't have it on this site. Ouch. But they do have the newer Prince of Persia games but just not the classic ones. I find that odd. I believe the DOS versions work fine in DOSBOX as I've played them before many times.
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Sarisio: I think it has to do with labyrinthine way of contacting with current copyright holders to discuss distribution. Original 2 Princes were made by different company, Brøderbund, which is now defunct, and their successor company (The Learning Conpany) looks to be sold to other company (Mattel). Original developer donated his games to The National Museum of Play in 2014. I am not sure what it means (how can you donate software to some museum), but I think it is safe to assume that original 2 Princes are officially abandonware now.
That's interesting. I wonder that if that means abandonware in the sense of legal to distribute? For example GOG could put it up as a Freebie no charge and not get in trouble as long as they okayed all the channels and the museum. If they are required to pay money they could include it as a bundle with any new Prince of Persia games bought on GOG and a portion of the New Prince of Persia profit would go to the company / museum who owns the rights to make it binding.

The only guess I can think of when donating a game to the museum is the actual game boxes and contents are displayed and perhaps a video recording of the actual gameplay with optional audio by wearing headphones would constantly loop on a little monitor for visitors.
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TrueDosGamer: What was so great about the Roland SCC-1? Was this just a Roland MT-32 but for ISA or did it have extra enhancements or a different set of instruments?
No, SCC-1 was a General MIDI/GS compliant sound card (part of the Roland Sound Canvas family), not a true MT-32 compatible. You are thinking of LAPC-1, which was basically a Roland CM-32L on a ISA card. SCC-1 was basically a Roland SC-55 MIDI synth on a ISA-card.

Roland SCC-1 used to be one of the better General MIDI sound cards you could buy at the time. Nowadays you can get even better General MIDI/GS music from DOS(Box)-games by using replacement General MIDI soundfonts with e.g. VirtualMIDISynth, soundfonts like Timbres of Heaven, Chorium Rev.A etc.

Roland SCC-1 did have a specific "MT-32 compatible mode" (enabled with a certain MIDI message) where it used a set of instruments that were in the same order as the default MT-32 instruments. This worked ok for those MT-32 games which used only the default MT-32 instruments and didn't change any default settings, but otherwise it would be more or less inaccurate. I think some other General MIDI sound cards had a similar, partial, MT-32 compatibility mode (e.g. the Waveblaster daughtercard?). In those MT-32 default games the SCC-1 could sound even better than a real MT-32, as its MT-32 compliant instruments were of higher quality than the originals. For instance, the Wing Commander and Elite Frontier music sounds better on SCC-1 than they do on a real MT-32 (but e.g. the Wing Commander sound effects sound wrong on the SCC-1).

Roland (more or less) MT-32 compatible LA-synthesis synthesizers:
- Roland MT-32
- Roland CM-32L
- Roland LAPC-1 (an ISA-card (CM-32L on a card), including the MPU-401 MIDI interface)
- Roland MT-100
- and some others I don't remember

Roland Sound Canvas (General MIDI, and the Roland-specific GS extensions on top of vanilla General MIDI):
- SC-55
- SCC-1 (SC-55 on a ISA-card, including the MPU-401 MIDI interface)
- and many many others

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TrueDosGamer: I find it be inferior because you can't use it on a modern motherboard because of this ISA slot restriction and the fact if you are using a Sound Blaster already you are typing up another good slot.
Yeah, if you are into using the original Roland sound devices, you should invest on the external MIDI modules (like MT-32, CM-32L; or in case of General MIDI/GS, Roland SC-55). You can use those external MIDI modules even with modern PCs and laptops, as long as you have a proper USB <=> MIDI adapter.

I haven't been able to use my Roland SCC-1 ISA card for ages, but then I don't care anymore. For me:

MT-32 music: Munt-emulator (I choose to use CM-32L ROMs with it)

General MIDI/GS music: VirtualMIDISynth with either Chorium Rev.A or Timbres of Heaven soundfont (Timbres of Heaven has the best instument quality, but I feel Chorium still gives better results with some games, and is generally closer to how Roland Sound Canvas sounded (instrument balance etc.)).

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TrueDosGamer: I might have to try out the Roland CM-32L ROM as I never played the Ultima games much. But why would you be using the Roland CM-32L for playing your sound effects anyhow? Didn't the configuration manager let you choose which sound device for music and which for sound effects? The normal configuration should have been Roland MT-32 for music and the Sound Blaster for digital sound effects.
Depends on the game. With many (older) games you couldn't choose a sound card separately for music and sound effects, If you select Roland MT-32, it will play everything (also sound effects) through it. E.g. Monkey Island 1-2, and most Dynamix games.

With Ultima Underworld, you can select a music sound card, and then a separate sound card for speech (e.g. Soundblaster). Then e.g. the digitized intro speech will be played through the Soundblaster DAC, but all the sound effects are played through the music card, e.g. Roland MT-32/CM-32L, or the Soundblaster FM-synthesizer (no digitized sound effects in either case).

I think Ultima 7 was similar, having a DAC-capable sound card (like Soundblaster) would merely give you digitized speech in certain places, but all the sound effects would still be produced by the "music card", no realistic sampled sound effects.

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TrueDosGamer: Did the actual Roland CM-32L unit have a stereo or mono headphone jack on the rear? To me it looked like a cheaper version of the Roland MT-32 with less features.
It didn't have the LCD display that MT-32 had, and less other control knobs too I think. Merely just the on/off button, a volume knob, and audio and MIDI ports at the back.

Internally though, it had the same extra sound effects etc. that LAPC-1 had, over the vanilla MT-32 instruments. Some later PC games even used those extra features of CM-32L/LAPC-1, meaning with a MT-32 you might miss certain sound effects or instruments in the music, or some would sound wrong. Ultima Underworld is one of those games, the swimming sound effect.

With early MT-32 games (e.g. older Sierra and Dynamix games) it was the opposite, they were optimized for MT-32 and you might occasionally get incorrect sounds on CM-32L and LAPC-1. Cow sound effects in Heart of China is one example.

However, I generally found those differences minor, so I don't see that much point fret about using the CM-32L with MT-32 games, and vice versa. Close enough.

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TrueDosGamer: If you go to this link:
http://www.sierrahelp.com/Utilities/Emulators/Munt.html

You will find recordings of the MUNT vs the real Roland MT-32. If you are saying it no longer sounds like this anymore than that's a blessing.
Doesn't sound like what? Those comparison recordings on that page sound pretty accurate to me. Which of the Munt recordings sound poor to you (compared to the corresponding MT-32 recording) on that page? I quickly tried out e.g. the Quest for Glory 2 Munt vs. MT-32 recordings on that page, and frankly I couldn't tell the difference. They sounded pretty much 1:1 to me. If there were some differences, I was unable to discern them (or then I didn't listed all the way through).

EDIT: Wait, in the "Conquest of Camelot" music I can tell maybe slight differences when I kept listening to them repeatedly one after another... but to me the differences didn't sound that major. Not sure though from which Munt version those were recorded. So maybe Munt is merely 99% accurate to the real thing at this point. Close enough to me, especially as Munt doesn't have those "glitch features" that my real CM-32L has with a couple of games (like that darn crackling fireworks sound in the Wing Commander intro, or crackling Inferno music).
Post edited June 26, 2015 by timppu
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Maighstir: Microsoft software is third-party from Windows now?
:-P
Good to know that. Virtual CD isn't baseline part of Windows up to 7 including (I am not planning to use 8 and 10).

By checking it, looks like this utility supports "*.iso" only. *.iso can't hold data which is relevant to things like StarForce, which was very popular back in time.

And it looks like Win8 and 10 allow to mount Iso only too, so they basically can't help with most of old cd-checks at all.

Anyway, coming back to why publishing original cds on GOG isn't feasible, they contained stuff like StarForce, which was highly dangerous malware in disguise (or as some people call it: "DRM"). MS programs are of no use here, and even if they were, installing StarForce stuff can damage PC in too many ways.
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TrueDosGamer: Not sure what this was referring? Care to elaborate?

Your profile icon reminds me of the kid on the Adlib Sound Card advertisement getting his head blown by some massive speakers.
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tammerwhisk: Using older operating systems is far from secure in most cases, and they tend to not use hardware fully due to being designed with past limitations in mind.
Depends what you mean by secure? Are you talking about malware and virus infections? Just get Hijack This, Malwarebytes Anti-Malware, and Netlimiter. Any incoming and outgoing connection can be blocked. Any program that attempts to run usually will pop up on the screen asking to allow it or not. If you know what you are doing you can still use XP SP3 on the internet. And if you are infected by some internet site then it is mainly due to the browser of choice. Internet Explorer was easier to get infected by visiting a shady website. That's why I stick with Firefox and Opera since they are independent from the OS. Also, I am NOT restricted by my OS as to which Internet Explorer version I can install. If Internet Explorer had a monopoly on browsers I would be forced to upgrade to Windows 8.0 just to use the latest and most up to date browser. Thankfully 3rd party browser developers are still making browsers that function on Windows XP.

Second if you do get infected and it's to the point where it would be impossible to repair or remove then that's why you have a backup plan. When you first install the OS from scratch you create an image. Then you install all the necessary device drivers and you image again. Finally you install all the applications you are going to use and image one more time. If you get infected and just don't have the time to deal with it you just reboot to DOS, run Ghost, restore the partition from image file and you are back to a clean fast efficient running operating system without any infections and no time wasted reinstalling the OS, drivers, software applications and takes a few minutes rather than hours to get back a working system.

Third if you are really that paranoid that older OSes are less secure you could always disable the network controller in your device manager. Another level of protection is to never install the network controller driver in the first place so there is no way the OS can communicate with the network controller. If you are somehow worried about any chance even if the driver is not installed that someone can access your computer then just unplug the network cable and use it as an offline machine.

Depends on the limitations you are referring.
XP SP3 with 28GB Ramdrive accessing the invisible memory above 3.2GB = 32GB of usable memory.

FAT16, FAT32, and NTFS, and exFAT file system support by installing the update from Microsoft.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=19364
I don't use exFAT because I value backward compatibility of FAT32 if I'm dealing with older computer systems and NTFS for larger than 4GB file sizes.

USB 2.0 (not USB 3.0) not a deal breaker when actual copy times are about 2xs faster and not 10xs faster as expected.

PCIe 3.0 support

Floppy controller - can hook up a 1.2MB floppy drive, a 360KB floppy. There are USB 1.44MB floppy drives as well.

Serial port - could be used for a dial up modem or serial mouse

10+ USB ports

PS2 keyboard port - saves you from wasting a USB port

IDE controller - 2 legacy hard drives or IDE devices can be hooked up.

SATA3 support - can hook up and access all my SATA devices

XP uses less memory for the OS and runs faster with less system resources.

[Possible limitations]
The only limitation if you can call it a significant one is no USB 3.0 speeds supported under XP but all USB 3.0 ports can be used as USB 2.0 ports due to backward compatibility.

2.2TB partition limitation because of MBR and no GPT support but higher capacity storage can be achieved by using a USB external hard drive with 4K -> 512 byte sector emulation.

Windows 7 supports TRIM for SSDs but I use regular 2.5" laptop hard drives which are very quiet compared to the older IDE hard drives.

Touch screen - but I would hardly want to reach in front of my large monitor and smear the screen constantly and my hands and arms would get tired from constantly extending in front of me. Touch screen capability does exist in XP tablets but the newer Windows 8 and higher have it built in.

64-bit applications - but there is XP 64-bit OS for that.

If you can think of anything a new operating system can do that XP can't at the moment please share.

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Maighstir: Microsoft software is third-party from Windows now?
:-P
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Sarisio: Good to know that. Virtual CD isn't baseline part of Windows up to 7 including (I am not planning to use 8 and 10).

By checking it, looks like this utility supports "*.iso" only. *.iso can't hold data which is relevant to things like StarForce, which was very popular back in time.

And it looks like Win8 and 10 allow to mount Iso only too, so they basically can't help with most of old cd-checks at all.

Anyway, coming back to why publishing original cds on GOG isn't feasible, they contained stuff like StarForce, which was highly dangerous malware in disguise (or as some people call it: "DRM"). MS programs are of no use here, and even if they were, installing StarForce stuff can damage PC in too many ways.
That's why you get the patches applied to it to bypass the CD-rom check or DRM. If GOG secures the rights to an actual CD / DVD software they should be able to persuade that company to give them a DRM FREE version because that's the goal of GOG to offer DRM free software.

I bought Knight Rider from Davilex Games back in the day. I got sick of constantly inserting the CD-rom into the drive all the time just to play it. I found a working CD check patch and I can run the game off the hard drive. I even installed it on my Ramdrive and it runs smooth as silk. Just because there are DRM infected software doesn't mean you have to put up with it. I agree releasing the original ISO would bring about a problem but if you have the original ISO you can patch it yourself or like I said if GOG is getting permission they can have the software company release a DRM free version for them to sell to make it legal.

As far as mounting an ISO, just use Daemon Tools Lite which is free.
Post edited March 27, 2018 by TrueDosGamer
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TrueDosGamer: My Windows Key on this keyboard is right below the Z key. I don't know about you but I'm going to have to contort my left thumb which would be hidden under my palm and hope I don't accidentally hit the Alt key by mistake.
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JMich: The Win key is there for me as well, and I never had trouble confusing it with the alt key while using the thumb to press it. No worries though.

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TrueDosGamer: Ctrl+Escape Key, F, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Ctrl+Escape Key, C, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Windows Key, F, F shortcuts to the same thing.
Windows Key, C, F shortcuts to the same thing.
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JMich: Win+F is not the same as Win, F, F. It may be if your start menu has the "Find Files and Folders" in it, but if it doesn't (or if it's in a different language), then it won't work. So while Ctrl+Escape will open the start menu, it's not the same as the Win key.
Or, if you prefer it this way, "Caps Lock, D" is different from "Shift-d", even if it may produce the same result (if something checks the shift state, it will return different results).

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TrueDosGamer: You didn't experience the dreaded Windows key during a critical moment during a game before? If you did you wouldn't be saying that. If it was a DOS game you'd cause it to crash if you went back to the Windows desktop accidentally.
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JMich: I have, multiple times. So I learn to better position my fingers, and pay more attention to the keys.

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TrueDosGamer: The one stored on your hard drive could you give me the file date of the WAR.EXE file? Also is yours the CGA 4 color or the EGA/VGA version? Is your version playable or is it impossible to control?
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JMich: You are asking for a computer scrapped years ago. The game was the CGA version, it was playable on an 8086, can't recall if the 80386 could play it or not, I think it was too fast.

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Sarisio: Problem with supplying pure ISO is that you NEED additional software to open (mount) it.
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JMich: Win 8 and 10 can natively mount ISO files, as can Mac OS X and Linux. Windows 7 can burn the ISO to disk without 3rd party, but not mount them, and XP requires 3rd party software.

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TrueDosGamer: The VGA and EGA screen shots look like EGA 16 colors to me. Sometimes software companies don't want to spend the time to reupdate the graphics in a game completely. It was originally meant for 4 color CGA and 16 color Tandy so the VGA version is just a port of the Tandy with some color changes it looks like. Resolution was probably still at 320x200.
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JMich: The trivia on Mobygames do mention that the MCGA was 16 colors, but different palette. The VGA resolution though seems to be 640x400. Compare this with this or this with this.

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Sarisio: but I think it is safe to assume that original 2 Princes are officially abandonware now.
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JMich: They are not. Abandonware is not a legal term. They may be freeware if current rights holder allows free distribution, though who said rights holder is I've no idea.
I took a look at those photos and if they are exact resolution shots that seems a bit odd they would use 640x400?

The most common VGA resolutions were 320x200 and 640x480

High resolution VGA was 800x600 and 1024x768.

Also I forgot to mention most of the mechanical keyboards were superior to the cheapie keyboards that came out later with the Windows keys. I just didn't like the feel of them and weren't as tactile. Also, it seemed like I had no issues with pressing multiple keys simultaneously compared to the cheapie keyboards. If you pressed too many at once it would jam up. This was especially bad for gaming when you would be holding and pressing multiple keys simultaneously.

This might shed light on what I'm talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29
Post edited June 26, 2015 by TrueDosGamer
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TrueDosGamer: What was so great about the Roland SCC-1? Was this just a Roland MT-32 but for ISA or did it have extra enhancements or a different set of instruments?
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timppu: No, SCC-1 was a General MIDI/GS compliant sound card (part of the Roland Sound Canvas family), not a true MT-32 compatible. You are thinking of LAPC-1, which was basically a Roland CM-32L on a ISA card. SCC-1 was basically a Roland SC-55 MIDI synth on a ISA-card.

Roland SCC-1 used to be one of the better General MIDI sound cards you could buy at the time. Nowadays you can get even better General MIDI/GS music from DOS(Box)-games by using replacement General MIDI soundfonts with e.g. VirtualMIDISynth, soundfonts like Timbres of Heaven, Chorium Rev.A etc.

Roland SCC-1 did have a specific "MT-32 compatible mode" (enabled with a certain MIDI message) where it used a set of instruments that were in the same order as the default MT-32 instruments. This worked ok for those MT-32 games which used only the default MT-32 instruments and didn't change any default settings, but otherwise it would be more or less inaccurate. I think some other General MIDI sound cards had a similar, partial, MT-32 compatibility mode (e.g. the Waveblaster daughtercard?). In those MT-32 default games the SCC-1 could sound even better than a real MT-32, as its MT-32 compliant instruments were of higher quality than the originals. For instance, the Wing Commander and Elite Frontier music sounds better on SCC-1 than they do on a real MT-32 (but e.g. the Wing Commander sound effects sound wrong on the SCC-1).

Roland (more or less) MT-32 compatible LA-synthesis synthesizers:
- Roland MT-32
- Roland CM-32L
- Roland LAPC-1 (an ISA-card (CM-32L on a card), including the MPU-401 MIDI interface)
- Roland MT-100
- and some others I don't remember

Roland Sound Canvas (General MIDI, and the Roland-specific GS extensions on top of vanilla General MIDI):
- SC-55
- SCC-1 (SC-55 on a ISA-card, including the MPU-401 MIDI interface)
- and many many others

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TrueDosGamer: I find it be inferior because you can't use it on a modern motherboard because of this ISA slot restriction and the fact if you are using a Sound Blaster already you are typing up another good slot.
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timppu: Yeah, if you are into using the original Roland sound devices, you should invest on the external MIDI modules (like MT-32, CM-32L; or in case of General MIDI/GS, Roland SC-55). You can use those external MIDI modules even with modern PCs and laptops, as long as you have a proper USB <=> MIDI adapter.

I haven't been able to use my Roland SCC-1 ISA card for ages, but then I don't care anymore. For me:

MT-32 music: Munt-emulator (I choose to use CM-32L ROMs with it)

General MIDI/GS music: VirtualMIDISynth with either Chorium Rev.A or Timbres of Heaven soundfont (Timbres of Heaven has the best instument quality, but I feel Chorium still gives better results with some games, and is generally closer to how Roland Sound Canvas sounded (instrument balance etc.)).

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TrueDosGamer: I might have to try out the Roland CM-32L ROM as I never played the Ultima games much. But why would you be using the Roland CM-32L for playing your sound effects anyhow? Didn't the configuration manager let you choose which sound device for music and which for sound effects? The normal configuration should have been Roland MT-32 for music and the Sound Blaster for digital sound effects.
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timppu: Depends on the game. With many (older) games you couldn't choose a sound card separately for music and sound effects, If you select Roland MT-32, it will play everything (also sound effects) through it. E.g. Monkey Island 1-2, and most Dynamix games.

With Ultima Underworld, you can select a music sound card, and then a separate sound card for speech (e.g. Soundblaster). Then e.g. the digitized intro speech will be played through the Soundblaster DAC, but all the sound effects are played through the music card, e.g. Roland MT-32/CM-32L, or the Soundblaster FM-synthesizer (no digitized sound effects in either case).

I think Ultima 7 was similar, having a DAC-capable sound card (like Soundblaster) would merely give you digitized speech in certain places, but all the sound effects would still be produced by the "music card", no realistic sampled sound effects.

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TrueDosGamer: Did the actual Roland CM-32L unit have a stereo or mono headphone jack on the rear? To me it looked like a cheaper version of the Roland MT-32 with less features.
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timppu: It didn't have the LCD display that MT-32 had, and less other control knobs too I think. Merely just the on/off button, a volume knob, and audio and MIDI ports at the back.

Internally though, it had the same extra sound effects etc. that LAPC-1 had, over the vanilla MT-32 instruments. Some later PC games even used those extra features of CM-32L/LAPC-1, meaning with a MT-32 you might miss certain sound effects or instruments in the music, or some would sound wrong. Ultima Underworld is one of those games, the swimming sound effect.

With early MT-32 games (e.g. older Sierra and Dynamix games) it was the opposite, they were optimized for MT-32 and you might occasionally get incorrect sounds on CM-32L and LAPC-1. Cow sound effects in Heart of China is one example.

However, I generally found those differences minor, so I don't see that much point fret about using the CM-32L with MT-32 games, and vice versa. Close enough.

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TrueDosGamer: If you go to this link:
http://www.sierrahelp.com/Utilities/Emulators/Munt.html

You will find recordings of the MUNT vs the real Roland MT-32. If you are saying it no longer sounds like this anymore than that's a blessing.
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timppu: Doesn't sound like what? Those comparison recordings on that page sound pretty accurate to me. Which of the Munt recordings sound poor to you (compared to the corresponding MT-32 recording) on that page? I quickly tried out e.g. the Quest for Glory 2 Munt vs. MT-32 recordings on that page, and frankly I couldn't tell the difference. They sounded pretty much 1:1 to me. If there were some differences, I was unable to discern them (or then I didn't listed all the way through).

EDIT: Wait, in the "Conquest of Camelot" music I can tell maybe slight differences when I kept listening to them repeatedly one after another... but to me the differences didn't sound that major. Not sure though from which Munt version those were recorded. So maybe Munt is merely 99% accurate to the real thing at this point. Close enough to me, especially as Munt doesn't have those "glitch features" that my real CM-32L has with a couple of games (like that darn crackling fireworks sound in the Wing Commander intro, or crackling Inferno music).
I'd probably take a crack at the Roland SC-55 if I had the money but when King's Quest IV came out and pushed the first game supported by the most sound devices at the time and Roland MT-32 was the preferred MIDI hardware of choice then it only makes sense as far as compatibility reasons to stick with that one for most of the DOS games.

Sound Blaster for sound effects
Roland MT-32 for music effects

You are correct that some games did not have a way to separate the sounds and music. Usually this was because they were too lazy to implement it. I think Sierra On-line and Origin systems did a good job keeping those two separate. There's no reason to choose the Sound Blaster for your MIDI playback unless you didn't have a Roland MT-32 and in the early days that was the case for me. eBay came along and a decade had passed and I was able to snag a used one for under $150. All my games that I once heard on the Sound Blaster MIDI now was breathing new life into the game with the Roland MT-32. That was about a decade ago. :)

As far as Wing Commander I'd have to try that out again and see if I encountered the same effect during the fireworks intro.

You got me thinking about revisiting some of these old DOS games using the Chorium Rev.A or Timbres of Heaven soundfont in VirtualMidiSynth. I haven't tried it out and it would eliminate the need of me hooking up another device to my machine if it as reached near 100% compatibility. This would allow me not to wear down my Roland MT-32 unnecessarily.

As far as noticeable comparisons I've done MUNT vs MT-32 I haven't played around enough with the MT-32 in quite some time to revisit all those games to tell you since I grew up using the Sound Blaster's MIDI font. But between the two the MT-32 does blow it away most of the time. Nostalgia does kick in hearing the Sound Blaster MIDI version so MT-32 loses in that department. However hearing a game's music the way it was originally intended to be heard really does make it feel like you are playing a totally new game. Sort of like watching a DVD and then experiencing the Blu-ray version things start to pop out more.

It looks like I've reached my first milestone. 100 replies on my first forum post. :)
Post edited June 26, 2015 by TrueDosGamer
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TrueDosGamer: I took a look at those photos and if they are exact resolution shots that seems a bit odd they would use 640x400?
No idea. The thumbnail and image display from Mobygames resizes the images, but the image themselves are of different sizes. No idea how the images were captured though, so can't say if that is the original size or not.

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TrueDosGamer: Also I forgot to mention most of the mechanical keyboards were superior to the cheapie keyboards that came out later with the Windows keys. I just didn't like the feel of them and weren't as tactile. Also, it seemed like I had no issues with pressing multiple keys simultaneously compared to the cheapie keyboards. If you pressed too many at once it would jam up. This was especially bad for gaming when you would be holding and pressing multiple keys simultaneously.
A good mechanical keyboard is better than a cheap one, Win key or not. A good mechanical keyboard with the Win key is better than a cheap one without it. The Win key has nothing to do with quality, nor with rollover.
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TrueDosGamer: I took a look at those photos and if they are exact resolution shots that seems a bit odd they would use 640x400?
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JMich: No idea. The thumbnail and image display from Mobygames resizes the images, but the image themselves are of different sizes. No idea how the images were captured though, so can't say if that is the original size or not.

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TrueDosGamer: Also I forgot to mention most of the mechanical keyboards were superior to the cheapie keyboards that came out later with the Windows keys. I just didn't like the feel of them and weren't as tactile. Also, it seemed like I had no issues with pressing multiple keys simultaneously compared to the cheapie keyboards. If you pressed too many at once it would jam up. This was especially bad for gaming when you would be holding and pressing multiple keys simultaneously.
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JMich: A good mechanical keyboard is better than a cheap one, Win key or not. A good mechanical keyboard with the Win key is better than a cheap one without it. The Win key has nothing to do with quality, nor with rollover.
The pictures do indicate image resolutions of 320x200 on the other CGA photos and 640x400 on the Tandy and VGA ones.

Yes I understand what you are saying about keyboards in general but mechanical keyboards had disappeared by the time Windows came around. Keyboards became cheaper and started using inferior parts. This is why I said most of the keyboards with Windows keys at the time were bad because they were NOT mechanical.

Today you can get a mechanical keyboard with the Windows key on it. I'm using it now.

Das Keyboard

Look it up, they are worth it.

If you got a 20 year old mechanical keyboard with a Windows key on it that would surprise me. If not you'll be encountering the issue I described. Also the mechanical keyboards at the time were made by IBM. I don't know if IBM would be proud to stamp a Windows logo on their keyboard. I think they were pissed when Microsoft decided to drop OS /2 and came out with Windows.
Post edited June 26, 2015 by TrueDosGamer
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TrueDosGamer: I'd probably take a crack at the Roland SC-55 if I had the money but when King's Quest IV came out and pushed the first game supported by the most sound devices at the time and Roland MT-32 was the preferred MIDI hardware of choice then it only makes sense as far as compatibility reasons to stick with that one for most of the DOS games.

Sound Blaster for sound effects
Roland MT-32 for music effects
Yeah that was for the pre-Doom era games, or so. The exodus from MT-32 to General MIDI/GS happened around 1992/1993 or thereabouts. During the transition period, some developers chose to support both "standards" at the same time (like X-Wing, and Tie Fighter; or e.g. Dune 2 has splendid but wildly different music with MT-32 and SCC-1, I can't make up my mind which version of the soundtrack I prefer more. The SCC-1/General MIDI version is cleaner and more orchestral, while the MT-32 version is more gritty and has maybe more atmosphere).

On the other hand, by the time Sierra started supporting General MIDI (around Space Quest V or so (***)), their MT-32 support seemed to become quite poor, even if they still kept the option in their games. I think they were merely playing some cut-down General MIDI music through the MT-32 from that point onwards, instead of specifically trying to utilize MT-32 or CM-32L to the full, like they did before. So for Sierra games which supported both MT-32 and General MIDI, the latter was the superior choice (as long as you had a good General MIDI sound card).

So... for DOS games from 1993 onwards or so, General MIDI is usually the better choice. Increasingly the only choice, the newer the game is. Just play Privateer or Ultima 8 with a good GM/GS compliant sound card (SCC-1 is fine, or e.g. VirtualMIDISynth with ChoriumRev.A), and prepare to be amazed. :)

(***) I specifically remember Space Quest V because I was expecting great MT-32 music from it as Space Quest IV had had one of the very best MT-32 audio I ever heard, but I came out disappointed with V. It dawned to me at that point that Sierra wasn't investing on MT-32 music anymore, but switching to General MIDI in their games, and any MT-32 support on top of it would be made haphazardly with the left hand.
Post edited June 26, 2015 by timppu
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TrueDosGamer: I'd probably take a crack at the Roland SC-55 if I had the money but when King's Quest IV came out and pushed the first game supported by the most sound devices at the time and Roland MT-32 was the preferred MIDI hardware of choice then it only makes sense as far as compatibility reasons to stick with that one for most of the DOS games.

Sound Blaster for sound effects
Roland MT-32 for music effects
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timppu: Yeah that was for the pre-Doom era games, or so. The exodus from MT-32 to General MIDI/GS happened around 1992/1993 or thereabouts. During the transition period, some developers chose to support both "standards" at the same time (like X-Wing, and Tie Fighter; or e.g. Dune 2 has splendid but wildly different music with MT-32 and SCC-1, I can't make up my mind which version of the soundtrack I prefer more. The SCC-1/General MIDI version is cleaner and more orchestral, while the MT-32 version is more gritty and has maybe more atmosphere).

On the other hand, by the time Sierra started supporting General MIDI (around Space Quest V or so), their MT-32 support seemed to become quite poor, even if they still kept the option in their games. I think they were merely playing some cut-down General MIDI music through the MT-32 from that point onwards, instead of specifically trying to utilize MT-32 or CM-32L to the full, like they did before. So for Sierra games which supported both MT-32 and General MIDI, the latter was the superior choice (as long as you had a good General MIDI sound card).

So... for DOS games from 1993 onwards or so, General MIDI is usually the better choice. Increasingly the only choice, the newer the game is. Just play Privateer or Ultima 8 with a good GM/GS compliant sound card (SCC-1 is fine, or e.g. VirtualMIDISynth with ChoriumRev.A), and prepare to be amazed. :)
Hmmm Dune ][ : The Building of a Dynasty...

They should have made Dune ]I[. They would have made a ton of cash but instead Warcraft 2 stole their thunder and then they decided years later to release Dune 2000. I bought the game but hardly played it. I can't remember if Dune 2000 just plain sucked or my computer was too slow. One day I'll dust it off and try it when I rebuild my 98SE system.

But yes Dune ][ would be a soundtrack I'm totally familiar with and even on the Sound Blaster it was awesome. Also, it was preferable to use a Sound Blaster because if you choose Adlib or MT-32 you won't get the digitized voices or digitized sounds effects but the lame sound effects made by instruments. :)

Now if only they combined the Sound Blaster with the Roland MT-32 on that game!

Actually, it might be true that the MT-32 might not have been fully utilized as time went on and General MIDI was more common place and the reason for that was because of the introduction of the CD-rom. Once you have 650MB at your disposal there was no need for MIDI anymore when you can put the actual musical score and actual digitized sound effects into the game. You were no longer hindered by floppy disks or hard drive space being a factor.
Post edited June 26, 2015 by TrueDosGamer