I disagree.

With GOG you can use ANY web browser to download it.
With Steam because of some silly reason you HAVE to use their client, which literally contains an outdated web browser. This also means you CAN NOT download it on an operating system that Valve actively blocks.
On GOG I can download a game even from a Windows XP machine, if I wanted to.

Valve could - without any problems - at least offer direct downloads via web browser for at the very least their DRM-free games, but of course they don't even offer you a way to check which one don't have DRM, and which ones do, because they want to lock you into their Steam environment.

And asking for a store to let you download games, even without having paid for them, is just absolutely silly. That would only work if every game was "pay whatever you like, including 0 bucks".

I mean remove the user accounts on GOG,and make it a purchase and direct download deal, and now people would call the payment processor DRM. Remove that and people would call web browsers DRM, because without a web browser you wouldn't be able to download it.

Some people call everything DRM; despite that not being the case. Sometimes I think it's trolling.

Replace GOG with physical media that you buy at a store. Exactly the same, except that you can sell physical media. Everything else works the exact same. As soon as you purchased and took it home, its yours. There are no online DRM checks, which is the important part.

And I wouldn't call physical copy protections DRM, because it's not management of any type. You don't need any corporation to allow you to play the game. You own it. Physical copy protections were actually pretty great, because they are yours.

Imagine if Sierra On-Line put online checks into their games. None of them would be playable anymore.
If you can't be bothered to log in on GOG and see that as "DRM", then you are still free to upload the installer to a private server of yours.
The point of GOG is that you don't need them to play your games.

Imagine tomorrow GOG would go bankrupt, it wouldn't matter. You would still be able to play the games.

Now imagine tomorrow Valve would go bankrupt, maybe because of a lawsuit regarding their loot boxes pushed onto children, or whatever. Now that would matter, because snip and most games on Steam would not work anymore, despite being downloaded.

That's the part that actually matters.
Valve is literally locking anyone using Windows 7 in less than a year.
Even if GOG did the same, it wouldn't matter, because they can't lock you out. And they don't do that anyway. Why would they? It would be stupid.

Valve on the other hand will also lock you out of that Steam handheld at some point. Maybe 2 years. Maybe 5 years, but the same crap will happen. On Steam you own NOTHING at all. You have to comply whatever Valve tells you. As if you were some kind of dog.

Gates Pirated Dr Dos and later a Xerox version of Windows, looking to beat apple.
Then MS Pirated Java and got sued for it, major issue, they called it Silverlight.
I am sure there are many others in between, but remember Gates never finished college and started out in a rich family.

All launchers are SPYWARE, take steam for example - has 8 "Web Helpers" vs Galaxy's 1.
Those run in the background all the time weather you use the store interface or NOT.
Not to mention that the Launcher + Web Spyware cause millions of page fault deltas per hour.
If you're a computer expert you understand how severe that is.
I usually don't run the Galaxy Launcher unless I purchased a new game or I want a particular update.
Just straight up launch games on a clean machine, like it used to be.

1. I never said I can't be bothered.
2. Wha I DID say is that downloading the files from GOG requires a login and therefore DRM - just as the others do.
So if one complains about the installation methods of Steam, Amazon, Humble or Epic, Origin or whatever, he must complain about GOG as well.

Mind you, I have said nothing about actually playing the game, it's only about the method which is required to get them in the fist place. Zip, unpacked files, installer ... all the same (where Zip and installer require a additional step), all methodes to get these files are DRMed.


If CDPR goes bankrupt, I can't download games anymore. If I didn't keep backups, I am fucked. If I did, then yay, I can play.
If Valve goes bankrupt, I can't download games anymore. If I didn't keep backups, I am fucked. If I did, then I need a crack :)
It's about playing, not about installing.

Ok, so you have to rely on a patchy third-party ecosystem of workarounds (which may not be possible in cases where a significant part of the content is server-side and which may come with some bonus trojans) to enjoy the games you paid for.

Maybe I'm too much of a simple straightforward person, but I much prefer when the product I paid for just works out of the box in a way that is intended and agreeable to me.

Its one thing when you are dealing with free open-source code and its your job. It's quite another when its a paid-for compiled closed-source product and its your hobby. I love the former, I don't care that much for the later. I consider it a waste of my time.

That's what I was saying, yes. You got that one right.

I've been using cracks since I bought my first CD games (apparently for Steam all that's needed is a encrypted text file, but I never tried that), they're not half as dangerous as some people want you to believe.
But sure, I prefer to run games without cracks, that's why I am glad that we have GOG - and the 10% DRM free Steam games in my collection. Duck Tales I can play whenever I want, even if Valve goes down :)

What does that even mean?
So what is a "DRM free" solution? Getting a direct URL via e-mail?

According to this logic any paid game is "DRM".
Get a direct download link -> "that's connected to your e-mail, therefore DRM"
Get it directly via e-mail (as if that would make sense) -> "that was sent to your e-mail inbox, and therefore requires a passwort" Yes, maybe highlight that you wrote that Steam *NEEDS* a crack.
And I don't download shady shit from the internet, and run it on my PC. Simple as that, because doing so is stupid, you never know what the software includes, maybe a bitcoin miner, or worse.
Your "backups" won't work otherwise without Steam and without an online connection.

The POINT of GOG is that you can keep your games.
Tomb Raider 2 for example.
I can be smart and buy that one on GOG (I actually did, despite owning PC Big Box). I will be able to play it on my Windows 7 PC until the end of time.

But Steam will block it in 8 months, will actively even block me when I try to download it, not because they went bankrupt, but because they just block you for no technical reason what-so-ever. You can't even download it via web browser, so the only way to download it, would be to install Windows 11 or whatever on some additional PC and download it from there and then move it, which is beyond silly and customer unfriendly.

Meanwhile I will be able to download it from GOG, because GOG doesn't block Operating Systems.

There is no DRM free download solution for digital distribution so it's pointless to blame one store and not the other. Better not to blame any of them for the way they handle downloads. None of them does it without authentification.

Well ... most A+ games do. Some don't. I was told most Indies are DRM free, but I don't bother to test that.

You don't have to promote GOG to me. There is a reason I have 600 Steam games and 2200 GOG games :)

Why is it so difficult to understand that I was talking only about the download method?



ps: Did Valve really say that they would block Windows 7? All I heared was that they would no longer support it.
Would be interesting to see if our installers work under Windows XP. After all we also have XP games. Of course our installers for DOS games don't work under DOS.

I agree to a large extent, though not all manners of accessing the content with authentication are as accessible or unintrusive.

For example, back when I was a Windows user a lifetime away, when Apple decided to drop support for their iTunes client on Windows (which is the only means to access their store) and make it MacOS only, they pretty much cut me off the iTunes ecosystem.

From that point onward, I couldn't buy new music from iTunes and download previously purchased content for that matter.

Similarly, there is a world of difference between a low-resource innocuous client that launches when I tell it to launch, is happy to run silently in the background without prompting me for anything and equally importantly, kindly die off when I close it without a fuss and say... the Microsoft Teams client (which unfortunately I have to use sometimes at work) which launches every time I start my computer, which takes forever to boot and equally importantly, forever to close. I hate Microsoft Teams.

Also, I think the next-gen in terms of ownership (probably not our generation as things are going in the opposite direction atm, but maybe our descendants once the digital space is more mature and we've hit enough pitfalls to know better) would be for a federated acknowledgement of your purchase (something a bit like Steam keys, but more widespread). Basically, you buy from one provider of the content and all providers of the content (or at least, a centralized very stable one) are made aware of your purchase and form thereon, your ownerrship is recognized by entities beyond your point of purchase.

Yep. I skipped through this thread and I remembered your post and the reply that said "no, this will not just be about definitions only" ... I guess you won the prize here :D

No.
Asking for authentication using public web standards using any web browser you want on any platform you want is fine to access the download.
I can for example browse www.gog.com using a web browser running on AmigaOS and it would work just fine.
I can also use a text based web browser.

Steam however *REQUIRES* you to use their DRM client with embedded Google Chrome, and there is no way around that, despite their site working on any web browser already.
Steam COULD offer direct downloads of DRM free games, but they don't. You need to use their DRM client, which also means that there are no DRM free games on Steam, because it's literally impossible.

And you need to obey whatever Valve demands of you.
Here on GOG you can use any web browser, but Valve can block your Operating System, they could even tell you that starting tomorrow Steam is streaming games only, and you couldn't do a thing about it.
But worse yet there are Steam users that defend this shit.

With GOG:
- buy game
- play it on supported Windows OS forever, GOG can shut down, it wouldn't matter
- your system breaks, you re-install and can install GOG games without needing an allowance from GOG, you just do it

With Steam
- buy game (effectively subscribe to it, that's what Valve calls it)
- play it
- Steam decides to block your OS, you can't play the game anymore, unless you comply and "update", which can have costs attached, which also can force you to buy new PC hardware
- Bonus: the game doesn't work on Windows 10: So it doesn't matter if you comply or not, the game is now unplayable. If you are lucky it's "DRM free", which means in some cases you may be able to copy it around, manually, you can't download/install it without latest Steam

That's the problem.
Steam is basically a scam.

Just imagine Nintendo doing this. 3DS is abandoned, and Nintendo blocks all games from being playable on 3DS. You need to get a Switch, and then some games may simply not work on it. Everyone would make fun of Nintendo, but with Valve it's okay.

Yes. that's what they have done with Windows XP as well. The installer blocks you.

Well, if your read line is past that ... good for you.
It's still *REQUIRED* authentification, you can't download without it.

It just means you have a different tolerance level.

You may as well say physical books have DRM because if I lose my book and Barnes and Noble goes bankrupt, I can no longer access it.

You have full control over your installers, hence no DRM. Once they are in your hands, it is your responsibility to keep them, not GOG's.

I don't know Barnes and Nobles, but if they need you to log in in order to get your stuff, then yes: It's DRM (Digital Rights Management, you don't get zip if you don't log in). But I guess it's ARM.

You can't get the installers without logging in first. Give your download link to someone who has not your credentials (and does not own the game). The link won't work for him. If one claims that already downloading games through the Steam client is DRM, then this is as well. Both methods do exactly the same thing.

I can also copy my Duck Tales (no DRM) to a different computer and it works there without having Steam installed. I have full control over it once it's downloaded. It's my responsibility to keep it.

You don't need to convince me that GOG is the more convenient solution, but we need authentification to actually get our software, just like you need it on Steam.
Without credentials, you don't get the software. End of story.

Absent a complete change in copyright laws the world over, there is simply no legal way of getting around the need for some authentication. GOG's method is basically as good as we are going to get in the short term.

Whether the store allows you to use a web browser client to download your games, or requires a proprietary client (like Steam or Galaxy) to download your games, has absolutely nothing to do with DRM.

All that matters for DRM-free is whether you can install and play the game without having to validate the game online (ie. to prove that you are eligible to play the game). If your GOG games required you to log into your GOG account with a web browser every time before you can play them, that would still be DRM, regardless of whether you can use a web browser or a proprietary client for that autenthication.

The stores will not allow any web browser anyway. For instance, you couldn't download your GOG games with some two decades old Netscape browser or Internet Explorer 1.0 because the GOG web site requires up-to-date TLS-version and cipher suite support from the browser before it allows you to connect to the web site. And lots of other technologies and shit that only new web browsers support.

Steam has some DRM-free games because after you have initially downloaded and installed the game, you can backup that installation directory, move it to another PC, and play it there without having to validate the game again.